The "Day After" Summary thread

[peekay]

[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=37365.msg995631#msg995631 date=1258911344]

I don't see a point in playing him when Stevie and Torres are IN FORM and he's so horribly off form ... If you're off form, like he's been the better part of the last two months, you spot should be on the bench ... When he's on form, he's a key part of our team. When he's been this poor, he hurts us a lot when we attack DESPITE his phenomenal work rate.
[/quote]

Agree. But when Stevie and Nando are clicking together he is a player worth persisting with. He is a clever player who knows how to play a good supporting role and complement the other players when the team is in full flow. But when we are struggling to create anything he offers absolutely nothing. He is not a good outlet, does not create much, lacks the ability to relieve pressure by holding on to the ball in tight areas etc. He has now gone back to 2007-2008 form and if he continues in the same vein for a month then it is fair to say that the form he displayed in the second half of 2008-2009 was a blip and this is his normal form.

 

[Judge Jules]

I'm not so sure. His previous bad run coincided with the death of his dad, to whom he was close, and he's hardly alone in playing poorly at the moment.

 

[peekay]

[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=37365.msg995817#msg995817 date=1258926778]
I'm not so sure. His previous bad run coincided with the death of his dad, to whom he was close, and he's hardly alone in playing poorly at the moment.
[/quote]

It is all a bit subjective I guess. I am not singling him out as the reason we are in a bad slump. I am just pointing out that if he continues in the same vein into December, then out of 2.5 seasons he has had a good 3/4 of a season. He is 30 years old, not a young talent from whom we can excuse periods of inconsistency. He is a guaranteed starter for us - injuries or no injuries. I expect more from him. Considering the flack Insua and Lucas are receiving on this board, I am surprised that no one has mentioned him

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=Fallon link=topic=37365.msg995683#msg995683 date=1258914820]
As Keni said, whatever the fook it is (I just thought it was Zonal) it isn't working. One thing I would definitely do though, until we stop these silly goals, is put a man on one of the posts.
[/quote]

Nessie's got it close to spot-on, here's a further explanation I did from a while back - http://sixcrazyminutes.com/forums/index.php?topic=30788.msg788520#msg788520

 

[peekay]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37365.msg995846#msg995846 date=1258928661]
[quote author=Fallon link=topic=37365.msg995683#msg995683 date=1258914820]
As Keni said, whatever the fook it is (I just thought it was Zonal) it isn't working. One thing I would definitely do though, until we stop these silly goals, is put a man on one of the posts.
[/quote]

Nessie's got it close to spot-on, here's a further explanation I did from a while back - http://sixcrazyminutes.com/forums/index.php?topic=30788.msg788520#msg788520
[/quote]

Ryan, as you described it, it seems like a much more simpler system to implement than man marking. Is it true. Could the reason we are conceding so much be attributed to something as simple as opposing team targeting the areas (such as the second line in your explanation) where our secondary defenders are present. Of course us not having Hyppia like defenders makes it really difficult but yesterday Adebayor was given the freedom of the Mersey in our penalty box. No one seemed to be marking that space.

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=peekay link=topic=37365.msg995881#msg995881 date=1258930928]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37365.msg995846#msg995846 date=1258928661]
[quote author=Fallon link=topic=37365.msg995683#msg995683 date=1258914820]
As Keni said, whatever the fook it is (I just thought it was Zonal) it isn't working. One thing I would definitely do though, until we stop these silly goals, is put a man on one of the posts.
[/quote]

Nessie's got it close to spot-on, here's a further explanation I did from a while back - http://sixcrazyminutes.com/forums/index.php?topic=30788.msg788520#msg788520
[/quote]

Ryan, as you described it, it seems like a much more simpler system to implement than man marking. Is it true. Could the reason we are conceding so much be attributed to something as simple as opposing team targeting the areas (such as the second line in your explanation) where our secondary defenders are present. Of course us not having Hyppia like defenders makes it really difficult but yesterday Adebayor was given the freedom of the Mersey in our penalty box. No one seemed to be marking that space.
[/quote]


Hmmm, quite a few reasons I suppose Peekay, certainly not one specific reason to blame.

As you say, missing the likes of Hyypia doesn't help. I think Rafa touched upon it in that Tomkins interview recently - over the years we've lost progressively more taller players - Hyypia, Arbeloa, Crouch, Sissoko, Riise, etc etc and replaced them with the likes of Masher, Insua, Aurelio, Skrtel, etc etc. Ignoring the ability comparisons of those replacements, it's obvious we've lost out on height and quality in the air.

That said, Saturday's goal wasn't anything to do with height, or a lack of it. It seems like we have our basic bank of four on the edge of the six yard box, but outside of that (between there and the 18 yard box, it's a mixmatch of zone and man-marking. Strange.

Yes Skrtel should have got tighter, but why was there no one in front of Adebayor positionally? The ball in was relatively flat, and had someone been positioned at the near post slightly outside of the 6 yard box, it'd have been cleared. I think it was Gerrard who ran past that position.

Also, Skrtel defintely should have attacked it better. As mentioned in the other thread, anyone positioned in a zone shouldn't usually move back towards their own goal, but are certainly entitled to attack something to the left of them (as Skrtel was facing) - so fuck knows why he did nothing.

As for 'people on the posts' that was mentioned earlier, well that's something you forsake when you decide to mark zonally. I didn't hear anyone complaining about it over the past few months, so to get worked up about it now is reactionary nonsense.

 

[peekay]

Thanks mate. Looks like Rafa has a decision to make about our defense also. We may need to sacrifice one of Skrtel and Agger and get an aerially dominating center half - unless Ayala shows some rapid development over the next few months.

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=peekay link=topic=37365.msg996015#msg996015 date=1258942460]
Thanks mate. Looks like Rafa has a decision to make about our defense also. We may need to sacrifice one of Skrtel and Agger and get an aerially dominating center half - unless Ayala shows some rapid development over the next few months.
[/quote]

I'd be susprised if we see anything but a central defensive partnership of Carra plus one of Skrtel and Agger from now on mate.

The Skrtel & Agger combo will go on the backburner for a while.

 

[Fallon]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37365.msg995902#msg995902 date=1258932020]

As for 'people on the posts' that was mentioned earlier, well that's something you forsake when you decide to mark zonally. I didn't hear anyone complaining about it over the past few months, so to get worked up about it now is reactionary nonsense.
[/quote]

That's because we all thought it was a defensive blip rather than a defensive crisis.

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=Fallon link=topic=37365.msg996036#msg996036 date=1258948343]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37365.msg995902#msg995902 date=1258932020]

As for 'people on the posts' that was mentioned earlier, well that's something you forsake when you decide to mark zonally. I didn't hear anyone complaining about it over the past few months, so to get worked up about it now is reactionary nonsense.
[/quote]

That's because we all thought it was a defensive blip rather than a defensive crisis.
[/quote]

Erm... I was talking about 'men on the posts'.

 

[Fallon]

So was I. It's not like we were going to cry out for them after the first couple of defeats, but I would shove one on there now until the defence is well and truly settled. We have conceded more goals from set-pieces this season than any other prem team, we have to stop the rot.

 

[Wizardry]

I thought it was a pretty strange match so I was interested to see what the reaction would be; logged on straight after the final whistle and there, top of the page, was a thread on "Watching Lucas play for Liverpool makes me...". Riiighht!! Like Lucas was the main problem in that match - no problem with the thread since it was there, as usual, to get people talking but so many jumping on it immediately to agree was laughable. I just logged off again.


In no way did Lucas have a good game; he was average - a few very nice passes, some good tackles and effort but also silly fouls, a couple of hard passes that lost possession and a terribly wasted opportunity when he should have scored. The reality was that Gerrard's impact on the game was no more positive than that of Lucas; same goes for Kuyt and I thought Skrtel was totally average.


The easy summary of the game was that we were rubbish which would ignore that for the first 10 minutes we were pretty good. Agger going off seemed to stun the team and then Babel going off disrupted our play. When he and Gerrard went down together I truly thought this was some kind of pantomime but the affect was basically that we lost another substitution.


I can't understand why Aquaman can't start a game - if he doesn't start in the CL then I'll have even more questions. However, once he didn't start and then we lost two substitutions it was always going to be more difficult to find a place for him. That does not, for me though, explain why when Yossi came off we bought on Aurelio.

We missed Alonso so much in this match it was unreal. We've missed him in every other match too but in other matches we had Carra or Agger trying to do his role of bringing the ball out of defense; now we had Mascher trying to do it and the result was that Gerrard and others couldn't get into the game.

We're desperately searching for the creativity at the back because right now our only creative players (Gerrard, Yossi and Torres) play up front. If they don't get the ball with the opportunity to create up front then we look horribly average. Alonso carried that threat from the back and without him we look very one dimensional. I know that people think Gerrard needs to be in the hole because this is where he causes havoc but until we've got some kind of creativity in the back half I think Gerrard needs to be back there and leave the creativity to Yossi, Torres (when fit) or N'Gog who at least tries something.

 

[Dreambeliever]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37365.msg995846#msg995846 date=1258928661]
[quote author=Fallon link=topic=37365.msg995683#msg995683 date=1258914820]
As Keni said, whatever the fook it is (I just thought it was Zonal) it isn't working. One thing I would definitely do though, until we stop these silly goals, is put a man on one of the posts.
[/quote]

Nessie's got it close to spot-on, here's a further explanation I did from a while back - http://sixcrazyminutes.com/forums/index.php?topic=30788.msg788520#msg788520
[/quote]

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=37365.msg996069#msg996069 date=1258956293]
I thought it was a pretty strange match so I was interested to see what the reaction would be; logged on straight after the final whistle and there, top of the page, was a thread on "Watching Lucas play for Liverpool makes me...". Riiighht!! Like Lucas was the main problem in that match - no problem with the thread since it was there, as usual, to get people talking but so many jumping on it immediately to agree was laughable. I just logged off again.


In no way did Lucas have a good game; he was average - a few very nice passes, some good tackles and effort but also silly fouls, a couple of hard passes that lost possession and a terribly wasted opportunity when he should have scored. The reality was that Gerrard's impact on the game was no more positive than that of Lucas; same goes for Kuyt and I thought Skrtel was totally average.


The easy summary of the game was that we were rubbish which would ignore that for the first 10 minutes we were pretty good. Agger going off seemed to stun the team and then Babel going off disrupted our play. When he and Gerrard went down together I truly thought this was some kind of pantomime but the affect was basically that we lost another substitution.


I can't understand why Aquaman can't start a game - if he doesn't start in the CL then I'll have even more questions. However, once he didn't start and then we lost two substitutions it was always going to be more difficult to find a place for him. That does not, for me though, explain why when Yossi came off we bought on Aurelio.

We missed Alonso so much in this match it was unreal. We've missed him in every other match too but in other matches we had Carra or Agger trying to do his role of bringing the ball out of defense; now we had Mascher trying to do it and the result was that Gerrard and others couldn't get into the game.

We're desperately searching for the creativity at the back because right now our only creative players (Gerrard, Yossi and Torres) play up front. If they don't get the ball with the opportunity to create up front then we look horribly average. Alonso carried that threat from the back and without him we look very one dimensional. I know that people think Gerrard needs to be in the hole because this is where he causes havoc but until we've got some kind of creativity in the back half I think Gerrard needs to be back there and leave the creativity to Yossi, Torres (when fit) or N'Gog who at least tries something.
[/quote]

Pretty good.

 

[Farkmaster]

Really couldn't we just have bumped a thread from anyone of a number of other games?

It really is getting predictable, we start well, we control the midfield, we don't create or finish enough chances, we show weakness at the back, we lose players to injury, we concede shit goals, and then when we are under the cosh we leave the attack stranded and don't pass well through the midfield.

 

[darkstarexodus]

[quote author=Farkmaster link=topic=37365.msg996107#msg996107 date=1258959762]
Really couldn't we just have bumped a thread from anyone of a number of other games?

It really is getting predictable, we start well, we control the midfield, we don't create or finish enough chances, we show weakness at the back, we lose players to injury, we concede shit goals, and then when we are under the cosh we leave the attack stranded and don't pass well through the midfield.
[/quote]

Frustratingly predictable. That's why I'm going to tune out and watch the last half of Moonraker in bed. Bond is equally predictable but a lot more entertaining. (Might not be as good at putting me to sleep though.)

 

[Judge Jules]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=37365.msg996086#msg996086 date=1258957895]
[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=37365.msg996069#msg996069 date=1258956293]
I thought it was a pretty strange match so I was interested to see what the reaction would be; logged on straight after the final whistle and there, top of the page, was a thread on "Watching Lucas play for Liverpool makes me...". Riiighht!! Like Lucas was the main problem in that match - no problem with the thread since it was there, as usual, to get people talking but so many jumping on it immediately to agree was laughable. I just logged off again.


In no way did Lucas have a good game; he was average - a few very nice passes, some good tackles and effort but also silly fouls, a couple of hard passes that lost possession and a terribly wasted opportunity when he should have scored. The reality was that Gerrard's impact on the game was no more positive than that of Lucas; same goes for Kuyt and I thought Skrtel was totally average.


The easy summary of the game was that we were rubbish which would ignore that for the first 10 minutes we were pretty good. Agger going off seemed to stun the team and then Babel going off disrupted our play. When he and Gerrard went down together I truly thought this was some kind of pantomime but the affect was basically that we lost another substitution.


I can't understand why Aquaman can't start a game - if he doesn't start in the CL then I'll have even more questions. However, once he didn't start and then we lost two substitutions it was always going to be more difficult to find a place for him. That does not, for me though, explain why when Yossi came off we bought on Aurelio.

We missed Alonso so much in this match it was unreal. We've missed him in every other match too but in other matches we had Carra or Agger trying to do his role of bringing the ball out of defense; now we had Mascher trying to do it and the result was that Gerrard and others couldn't get into the game.

We're desperately searching for the creativity at the back because right now our only creative players (Gerrard, Yossi and Torres) play up front. If they don't get the ball with the opportunity to create up front then we look horribly average. Alonso carried that threat from the back and without him we look very one dimensional. I know that people think Gerrard needs to be in the hole because this is where he causes havoc but until we've got some kind of creativity in the back half I think Gerrard needs to be back there and leave the creativity to Yossi, Torres (when fit) or N'Gog who at least tries something.
[/quote]

Pretty good.
[/quote]

Seconded, especially the point about Stevie playing in CM. Rafa has only himself to blame for his stubbornness in not doing that but sticking with the persistently ordinary Lucas in there.

 

[Frogfish]

Excellent post Wiz.

1. Skrtel had an horrendous game. Scoring must have gone to his head because he was fast asleep when Adebayor scored and then he horribly, horribly, horribly lost possession by the corner flag, when all he had to do was clear it, to precipitate their second (in which both Carra & Kyrgiakos must also take blame for having already been at home in bed whilst allowing Ireland to run through the centre of our defence as if it were a youth match).

2. Masherano was our best player by a mile so I failed to see (and didn't) numerous occasions of Citeh midfielders running 30 to 40 yds through our midfield as Fallon asserts.

3. Missing Johnson & Agger castrated our ability to bring the ball out of defence.

4. N'Gog spent far too much time out wide but he was often left isolated.

5. The two injuries had a far more detrimental impact on our performance and planning than Citeh ever could have. When we should have been bringing on 3 players from 60 mins on (including Aquilani) we had already been neutered.

6. Aurelio played really well when once he came on and immediately we seemed to have re-discovered how to keep possession, and became more adventurous and dangerous in attack.

 

[KopKing]

We had really poor luck once again, I thought. Already depleted by injuries we had to replace two players. We still could have won the game, so in the circumstances it wasn't that bad a result.

Ngog is coming along nicely, setting up both goals. For a young kid he has good awareness and skill.

Masher showed good passing range and vision. He reminded me of Xabi at times.

Babel looked sharp before he got injured by a two footed studs up challenge.

 

[Fallon]

[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=37365.msg996424#msg996424 date=1258994762]
Excellent post Wiz.


2. Masherano was our best player by a mile so I failed to see (and didn't) numerous occasions of Citeh midfielders running 30 to 40 yds through our midfield as Fallon asserts.


[/quote]

It happened 3 times that I know of, 1 of them less than a few minutes after scoring the first goal. It's because Lucas is shat and Masch's game involves him going chasing down balls for 30 yards, which isn't a problem unless you have a stupid cunt next to you.

 

[Dreambeliever]

[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=37365.msg996069#msg996069 date=1258956293]
I thought it was a pretty strange match so I was interested to see what the reaction would be; logged on straight after the final whistle and there, top of the page, was a thread on "Watching Lucas play for Liverpool makes me...". Riiighht!! Like Lucas was the main problem in that match - no problem with the thread since it was there, as usual, to get people talking but so many jumping on it immediately to agree was laughable. I just logged off again.


In no way did Lucas have a good game; he was average - a few very nice passes, some good tackles and effort but also silly fouls, a couple of hard passes that lost possession and a terribly wasted opportunity when he should have scored. The reality was that Gerrard's impact on the game was no more positive than that of Lucas; same goes for Kuyt and I thought Skrtel was totally average.


The easy summary of the game was that we were rubbish which would ignore that for the first 10 minutes we were pretty good. Agger going off seemed to stun the team and then Babel going off disrupted our play. When he and Gerrard went down together I truly thought this was some kind of pantomime but the affect was basically that we lost another substitution.


I can't understand why Aquaman can't start a game - if he doesn't start in the CL then I'll have even more questions. However, once he didn't start and then we lost two substitutions it was always going to be more difficult to find a place for him. That does not, for me though, explain why when Yossi came off we bought on Aurelio.

We missed Alonso so much in this match it was unreal. We've missed him in every other match too but in other matches we had Carra or Agger trying to do his role of bringing the ball out of defense; now we had Mascher trying to do it and the result was that Gerrard and others couldn't get into the game.

We're desperately searching for the creativity at the back because right now our only creative players (Gerrard, Yossi and Torres) play up front. If they don't get the ball with the opportunity to create up front then we look horribly average. Alonso carried that threat from the back and without him we look very one dimensional. I know that people think Gerrard needs to be in the hole because this is where he causes havoc but until we've got some kind of creativity in the back half I think Gerrard needs to be back there and leave the creativity to Yossi, Torres (when fit) or N'Gog who at least tries something.
[/quote]
Excellant and I agree regarding Gerrard. In fact I've been saying it since day one of the season. With Alonso gone and Aquaman not fit Gerrard should be in Lucas's place and Yossi in Gerrards. End of.