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The Aggro Is Starting At Old Trafford

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Not exactly. Fowler was good to watch for his talent, but the reason you'd look forward to seeing that talent is because he was trying to win the game for the club and the fans, and it was fun. Suarez won games with far more talent than Fowler, but it was empty because the win was nothing to do with it being for the people, it was just what he was paid to do, to generate revenue for the club and to advance his own career. Well down, give the fucker a round of applause. whoo hoo, who cares?

Football would be finished were it not for the fact that winning means there is a loser. So even though you don't care about your own players, your hatred of other players and fans still keeps you interested enough.

Right, quick test. Which of the following would you say would try and win games for Liverpool "for the clubs and fans" vs "being paid to"?

I'll start you off:

Fowler (Fans)
Suarez (Money)
Gerrard
Alonso
Owen
Carragher
McMahon
Rush
Reina
Milner
McManaman
Hamann
 
I see your point Dantes. You could say that Fowler was the last gasp of the old tradition that there was a spiritual link between a football club and the local community. It's sad that it has gone but hey, the Premier League is still great fun.
 
Right, quick test. Which of the following would you say would try and win games for Liverpool "for the clubs and fans" vs "being paid to"?

I'll start you off:

Fowler (Fans)
Suarez (Money)
Gerrard (Me)
Alonso (Money)
Owen (Money)
Carragher (Fans)
McMahon (Fans)
Rush (Fans)
Reina (Money)
Milner (Money)
McManaman (To help Fowler and by proxy the fans, but also Money)
Hamann (He had an addiction to winning games of chance)
 
Fans hate the idea that players consider their personal careers as well as their loyalty to their club. When Keegan announced that he was off to Hamburg at the end of the season, the Kopites' adoration turned to hate. I suggest that's why Owen was mealy-mouthed about his plans to move to Real Madrid and kept coming up with weak excuses as to why he hadn't signed his contract.
 
Fans hate the idea that players consider their personal careers as well as their loyalty to their club. When Keegan announced that he was off to Hamburg at the end of the season, the Kopites' adoration turned to hate. I suggest that's why Owen was mealy-mouthed about his plans to move to Real Madrid and kept coming up with weak excuses as to why he hadn't signed his contract.

Yes, I try not to get too filled with hate.

I'm always disappointed when I player I really like and think is great decides to leave the club - or sometimes has that decision made for him, but anyway - and of course the way they go about it and circumstances can make that process more or less bearable and annoying.

But I can usually understand (sometimes even respect) why they left, as long as it's obviously to a better club, or better players, or a superior manager, higher chance of winning trophies, whatever.

It's hard to put yourself in their shoes, too. I'd like to think that if I was able to captain Liverpool, and get paid a fortune, win some trophies and play with some great players, then I'd be like Gerrard and turn down opportunities to join other clubs like Chelsea, Real or whoever. But what if you just wanted a change of scenery? A life-style change or the opportunity to play in a different country? They might all be factors.

Carragher I think summed it up in some ways "Where's bigger than Liverpool?" and that's great. But not everyone thinks the same, or has that emotional, visceral connection the club and city, and even if that is cultivated over time, it's not an umbilical cord.

I find it much harder to understand the vitriol that some local/ local hero players get when they leave clubs like Everton, or Southampton or Newcastle. It's much easier to leave Everton than Liverpool.
 
They can leave us, Rush left, McManaman left, after the initial anger you can still look back on them fondly. The important thing is when they are here and before your eyes you can tell if they are genuinely trying for others, or if it's just for themselves / to lick the managers bumhole.

Long before Owen left, the contrast between him and Fowler was night and day. Same as it was later between Carragher and Gerrard. One is endearing, the other is like what the fuck is wrong with you...get over yourself. Then Torres. He looked a little bit like Fowler in the way he played for fans, convinced everyone, and then it turned out to be an elaborate act of fraud. So now even if a modern player looks like they get it and care, tought luck, hate is going to be the default position.
 
Then Torres. He looked a little bit like Fowler in the way he played for fans, convinced everyone, and then it turned out to be an elaborate act of fraud.

My take on Torres is that in his first couple of seasons, he was really up for it, and prepared to mix it with the gorilla centre-backs of the Premier League. Then he started to think that his body was taking too much punishment, and made a conscious decision to hold back a bit. That was when he became less effective.
 
They can leave us, Rush left, McManaman left, after the initial anger you can still look back on them fondly. The important thing is when they are here and before your eyes you can tell if they are genuinely trying for others, or if it's just for themselves / to lick the managers bumhole.

Long before Owen left, the contrast between him and Fowler was night and day. Same as it was later between Carragher and Gerrard. One is endearing, the other is like what the fuck is wrong with you...get over yourself. Then Torres. He looked a little bit like Fowler in the way he played for fans, convinced everyone, and then it turned out to be an elaborate act of fraud. So now even if a modern player looks like they get it and care, tought luck, hate is going to be the default position.

It was as plain as the nose on his face (i.e.very) that Rushie never wanted to go, so he got and still gets a free pass. McMoneyman is a different kettle of fish and I for one don't look back fondly on that chiseller at all. Despite being the leader of the Spice Boys (and almost certainly the main destructive influence on Robbie, who looked up to him) he had the cheek to take offence when the club got tired of his behaviour and tried to sell him, or so he said when trying to justify the way he diddled the club out of a transfer fee later. "Look back fondly" my hairy Arsenal.

Torres is a complicated case IMO. I don't believe his initial attitude was a fraud. The real problem was that he's an essentially weak man whose head got turned by Chav tapping-up, with the connivance of his agents. He knew he'd made the mistake of his life as soon as he signed for them, as his subsequent career proved.
 
I've always been rather ambivalent about Macca and also Owen.

I'm sure there was all sorts of dubious behaviour and reasons to dislike them.

But they get a bit of a pass from me because of their mates, who are still their mates; Fowler and Carra

And while many of us could recognise an element of that sly, superior, 'go 'ed do this, it'll be a laugh' school friend provocateur - who always seemed to dodge trouble when it landed- in the Fowler/ Macca relationship, it's a bit unfair really.

We don't know them that well, and it also makes Robbie out to be the moron, capering around to order, but I very much doubt that at all. He's sharper than that.
 
I agree he's not the bonehead some have made him out to be - not by a long way in fact - but I'm not sure how much impact that would have on this kind of situation. I use the expression "looked up to" advisedly because when, as sometimes happened, the two of them were interviewed together Robbie would literally be doing that, looking up at McMoneyman for approval and endorsement, usually after some kind of verbal clowning. I also happen to know someone in Liverpool who claimed at the time (and I've no reason to disbelieve him) that he'd seen the pair of them out on the town together two or three times and the set-up was exactly as you describe, Robbie getting into scrapes while McMoneyman stood aside from it enjoying the spectacle. In any case, though, my main beef with McMoneyman was the way he left (a good deal more blameworthy than Owen IMO, and after a season and more of distinct lack of effort and general @rsedness on the pitch) and he'd be dead to me for that anyway.
 
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