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Substitutions and/or the lack of it

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King Binny

Part of the Furniture
Honorary Member


[article]Each of us, at one point or another, have found ourselves watching a film ridden with maddening flaws and avoidable mistakes. How did Andy Dufresne stick the poster back up perfectly from the other side? Why did Rose not shuffle over just a little bit to allow room for Jack, before letting go despite telling him she never would? Why is Adam Sandler still paid to make and star in movies?

Three months into this season, and Jurgen Klopp must feel like he is watching the exact same film with the exact same maddening flaws each week. Liverpool had most of the ball, most of the opportunities and most of the shots against Newcastle, but emerged from St James’ Park barely clinging to a 1-1 draw.

If the majesty involved in Philippe Coutinho’s opener – a long-range strike from the left-hand side – felt familiar, so did Newcastle’s equaliser. Jonjo Shelvey sliced through the gaping hole in the central defence to play in Joselu, who only scored as the recovering Joel Matip kicked the ball against his shin. In a season typified by defensive deficiencies, this was a new kind of incompetence from the visitors.

As ever, Liverpool had the chances to take all three points. Mohamed Salah, Daniel Sturridge, Dejan Lovren and Sadio Mane all spurned opportunities as the club again relied on one moment of brilliance to rescue them. They have now had 232 shots in 12 games across all competitions – more than any other side in Europe’s top five leagues. And yet in the Premier League alone, Manchester City, Manchester United and Chelsea have all scored more.

The difference between Klopp and your average viewer on Sunday is that the German had the chance to enact change. He was sitting in the editing booth, the one man able to correct each of the exasperating errors in this latest Liverpool sequel.

Yet it was not until the 74th minute, when Newcastle had reached such a point of comfort and tranquility that deckchairs and sunglasses were being readied, that Klopp made his first substitute. The visitors had not had a single shot since the 54th minute; the manager’s hand was forced.

If Roberto Firmino and Dominic Solanke were handed scant opportunity to really stamp their authority on the game, spare a thought for Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain. The summer signing was afforded six minutes; his entire Premier and Champions League career for Liverpool comprises of 75 minutes across five substitute appearances.

It appears to be Klopp’s Achilles’ heel. In seven Premier League games this season, only once has he made a substitution before 61 minutes, and only three times before the 74th. The only instance of a player rising from the bench to the pitch before the hour mark was against Manchester City – at half-time when two goals and one man down.

A manager must manage, and in that job description he must be able to positively affect a game through either a change in tactics or players. There are but a few reasons to bring on a substitute: to try and rescue a result, to help change the system, to replace an injured player or to waste time while defending a win. To expect players to instantly perform under immense pressure with 15 minutes of a match remaining is to ask them to fight a perennial losing battle.

In seven games, Liverpool substitutes have been afforded 306 minutes – fewer than all but Burnley (283). Klopp has so much misplaced faith in Plan A that he often forgets he has a Plan B at his disposal before it’s too late.[/article]

Dated 28 Aug


Dated May 2017
[article]Only Premier league matches have been considered
Only second half substitutions were considered, since first half are usually in case of injury
sub.jpg
sub2.jpg

[/article]

Dated 23 Nov 2016
https://basstunedtored.com/2016/11/23/klopps-record-with-subs-and-late-goals/
[article]In terms of late goals (which is defined as from the 76th minute onwards for the purposes of this article), just 15% of Liverpool’s league goals under Klopp have been late, compared to a Premier League average of around 22%, and this season it has been just 10%, though again the Reds haven’t required as many late goals in this campaign as they might have. Time-wise, it’s interesting to note that 23% of Liverpool’s goals have been in the first fifteen minutes of the second half this season, which compares favourably to Klopp’s average of 17% at Dortmund, and the Premier League’s average of 16%. Perhaps Klopp’s strength this season has been the half-time pep talk and subtle tactical changes rather than goals from the bench?

Sean asked about late goals in Germany though, so let’s look at that. The below table shows when Dortmund scored their league goals during Klopp’s tenure, and as a comparison I’ve included the Bundesliga average for the final fifteen minutes too.

dortmund-goal-times.png


Klopp’s side were broadly in line with league average for proportion of late goals during his time at Dortmund, though I thought it was interesting that they had a bit of a leap in his third and fourth campaigns when they won the league.

BVB averaged just under fourteen goals per season from the 76th minute onwards, and in Klopp’s 42 Liverpool matches, the Reds have so far scored thirteen, so it would appear that essentially his two sides have scored late goals at roughly the same rate (although there are only thirty-four matches per season in Germany). Dortmund scored 0.41 late goals per game in those seven seasons when the league average was 0.31, though you’d obviously expect them to score more as one of the better sides.

To bring the article full circle, here’s Klopp’s record for using substitutes for both Dortmund and Liverpool.
klopp-sub-info.png
[/article]
 
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"His subs are awful" - do a search - is what was said of all our managers, after about two months in charge. It says more about the squad and the situation than actual decisions.
 
I'm asking myself the question why we're having to look to the bench for game changers when the quality of the XI on the pitch should be doing the job against sides like Burnley Newcastle and Spartak
 
His subs are fucking awful. We never improve from them.

Didn't make any difference to the result, so I suppose you're right, but I thought we looked better with Firmino and Solanke than Sturridge and Mane.
Incidentally Sturridge needs to take a lot of blame for the goal.
 
I don't think the subs were the problem tonight. The article in question bemoans the fact that Oxlade-Chamberlain got "only 6 minutes" – what bullshit, does he really deserve more at this point? Klopp's team selection has been correct, I think – he dropped 2 players who played poorly in Moscow – and the subs were fine. There is not much one can do when pretty much the whole team is in a rut.
 
"His subs are awful" - do a search - is what was said of all our managers, after about two months in charge. It says more about the squad and the situation than actual decisions.
Probably very true that Macca. But I've moaned at length about owners who don't spend the money to compete and the truly awful transfer window this summer. Now it's about what he has at his disposal.
 
I don't ever want Rafa back. But fuck I'd love him to be in charge of telling Klopp where our weakness is. Not a fucking chance Rafa starts this season without signing CB and DM.
Without a doubt.. The more I think about it the more it angers me. Its been clear as day what are problem are, yet they weren't addressed in the transfer window. Fudging Burnley are now above is in the League Table..

Rafa, if we had a areas of concern he would look to address it in the transfer window.

Just the end of his reign the replacements where a bit shite..

Dossena, Aquallani etc etc


I won't mention Aquallani. less mentioned about him the better...
 
Probably very true that Macca. But I've moaned at length about owners who don't spend the money to compete and the truly awful transfer window this summer. Now it's about what he has at his disposal.

I don't get what's being said here. Are we saying that Klopp is some victim of someone else's squad? Because he said last Summer that this is HIS squad now, that there is no one here that he doesn't want and that no one has left that he didn't want to sell.

We bought AOC who was struggling to find a true position at Arsenal after 6-7 years and now we have him languishing on the bench, being thrown on as a hit and hope late in games, having paid £40m for the pleasure. If we want an example of poor in game management and general transfer naivety, then it's right there.

I'm not sure Klopp or anyone else deserves any sympathy for that or any of this "not being backed" bullshit. We just spent £60m on a player who won't be here until next Summer and we were looking to buy VVD at roughly the same price. AOC was a luxury buy we really didn't need and obviously don't know how to incorporate.

It's hardly a few months in, we've had 4 transfer windows now and he has some wonderful players at his disposal who are key to how he wants his team to play. If he doesn't have an alternative to that, then that's his fault.

This was HIS bench yesterday:

  • 1Karius
  • 7Milner
  • 9Firmino
  • 17Klavan
  • 21Oxlade-Chamberlain
  • 23Can
  • 29Solanke
At least £50m worth of transfers there are HIS, Milner was one of his best players last season yet for some unfathomable reason he's refusing to play him, while our current midfield looks flat and one dimensional. This is a player who can score and create and will get stuck in, more or less what we're missing, yet he doesn't see it. A goalkeeper and a centre half who have proven repeatedly to not be good enough, a midfielder who is attracting the attention of Juve and our main, usually ever-present striker.

It's hardly a bunch of kids or unwanted squad players. The only no-hopers on the bench yesterday were his signings.
 
I don't get what's being said here. Are we saying that Klopp is some victim of someone else's squad? Because he said last Summer that this is HIS squad now, that there is no one here that he doesn't want and that no one has left that he didn't want to sell.

We bought AOC who was struggling to find a true position at Arsenal after 6-7 years and now we have him languishing on the bench, being thrown on as a hit and hope late in games, having paid £40m for the pleasure. If we want an example of poor in game management and general transfer naivety, then it's right there.

I'm not sure Klopp or anyone else deserves any sympathy for that or any of this "not being backed" bullshit. We just spent £60m on a player who won't be here until next Summer and we were looking to buy VVD at roughly the same price. AOC was a luxury buy we really didn't need and obviously don't know how to incorporate.

It's hardly a few months in, we've had 4 transfer windows now and he has some wonderful players at his disposal who are key to how he wants his team to play. If he doesn't have an alternative to that, then that's his fault.

This was HIS bench yesterday:

  • 1Karius
  • 7Milner
  • 9Firmino
  • 17Klavan
  • 21Oxlade-Chamberlain
  • 23Can
  • 29Solanke
At least £50m worth of transfers there are HIS, Milner was one of his best players last season yet for some unfathomable reason he's refusing to play him, while our current midfield looks flat and one dimensional. This is a player who can score and create and will get stuck in, more or less what we're missing, yet he doesn't see it. A goalkeeper and a centre half who have proven repeatedly to not be good enough, a midfielder who is attracting the attention of Juve and our main, usually ever-present striker.

It's hardly a bunch of kids or unwanted squad players. The only no-hopers on the bench yesterday were his signings.

Yeah, his signings are - at very best - a mixed bag.

Mane and Salah look great, but Karius, OXTHLADE-CHAMBERLAAAAAIN, Klavan, Wijnaldum and Matip are fucking shit.

Haven't seen enough of Robertson, Solanke and Grujic to have an opinion.
 
Yeah, his signings are - at very best - a mixed bag.

Mane and Salah look great, but Karius, OXTHLADE-CHAMBERLAAAAAIN, Klavan, Wijnaldum and Matip are fucking shit.

Haven't seen enough of Robertson, Solanke and Grujic to have an opinion.
I don't really have much to base it on but i like Grujic and think he'll be a good player for us if Klopp gave him games.
 
I don't really have much to base it on but i like Grujic and think he'll be a good player for us if Klopp gave him games.

He'd be red carded several times a season at the moment. He's got to clean up his game, or grow an afro and start using his elbows.
 
Yeah hes shown himself to be a liability and wreckless at times, altough itd be nice to see a bit of bite in the side, i dont think the current lot could fight their way out of paper bags.
 
I like Grujic too, he looks a bit more naive, but he's got more natural talent than the other three and he's a big presence..
 
Subs aren't gonna help.
Our squad is weak as shit.

I really hope Clyne and Lallana manage to help us turn it around.
 
Subs aren't gonna help.
Our squad is weak as shit.

I really hope Clyne and Lallana manage to help us turn it around.

They should do, if only for experience. At the end of the day, we're getting caught out repeatedly down the right and we lack that bit of mobility in the middle, and the ability to turn defence into attack quickly.

Is the squad really that weak? Klopp seems hugely reluctant to give fringe players a chance in some instances (I know they figure in the cup), like it's too easy to just throw on the players who regularly make the first team, even if they do regularly underperform. Sometimes, when that's repeatedly an issue, it's worth chucking on a kid.

I know we have shortages in specific ares of the team, but surely Grujic (for example) could have come off the bench a bit more.
 
They should do, if only for experience. At the end of the day, we're getting caught out repeatedly down the right and we lack that bit of mobility in the middle, and the ability to turn defence into attack quickly.

Is the squad really that weak? Klopp seems hugely reluctant to give fringe players a chance in some instances (I know they figure in the cup), like it's too easy to just throw on the players who regularly make the first team, even if they do regularly underperform. Sometimes, when that's repeatedly an issue, it's worth chucking on a kid.

I know we have shortages in specific ares of the team, but surely Grujic (for example) could have come off the bench a bit more.
It's weak when your three midfielders are shit and you can't do anything about it.
It's also weak when your four CB's are shit and you cant do anything about it either.
 
It's weak when your three midfielders are shit and you can't do anything about it.
It's also weak when your four CB's are shit and you cant do anything about it either.

I don't really buy that when it comes to the midfield. We have over indulged with Can, Henderson and Gini, but we also have Coutinho, Grujic, Milner and a returning Lallana. There is plenty of depth there, even if there isn't necessarily a natural DM.
 
I don't really buy that when it comes to the midfield. We have over indulged with Can, Henderson and Gini, but we also have Coutinho, Grujic, Milner and a returning Lallana. There is plenty of depth there, even if there isn't necessarily a natural DM.
But how does it even matter Mark when Klopp refuses to play them. I thought Milner was OK against Burnley. Hasn't been given a minute since that.
 
But how does it even matter Mark when Klopp refuses to play them. I thought Milner was OK against Burnley. Hasn't been given a minute since that.

Yeah, which is the point Brendan has made this week. There's no method to the madness, people get rotated regardless. Firmino arguably got dropped (or rested) yesterday, and then came on anyway.
 
For the record, we've given Sturridge a fair enough go really to get back to some sort of form, and he's been well off the pace. Solanke looks hungry for it, as does young Woodburn, they both deserve a go. I don't care who cost more or has more experience, etc.
 
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