Step up Yossi

[Dreambeliever]

Considering the stuttering start we have made and the fact we cannot really afford to lose another game for a while I think we should move to this team


------------------------Reina-------------------------

Johnson---------Carra---------Skittles-----------Insua

----------------Gerrard-------Masher-----------------
Kuyt--------------------------------------------Reira

------------------------Yossi-------------------------

------------------------Torres-------------------------

It's been obvious since our first kick this season that we simply have not been passsing the ball out of defence as much this year without Alonso to take the ball off the back four. (Carragher has been hoofing left right and centre) Either theback four don't trust Lucas enough to give it to him or his movement isn't good enough to get free to receive the ball. Either way we need Gerrard back in the middle to control the team and get things moving while also getting more involved.

I know some will say we cannot disturb the Gerrard Torres link but if they are getting starved of good service from midfield like against Spurs then whats the point? Its a bad state when our biggest threat outside of those two is our RB. Johnson has been magical and the key to us scoring half our goals so far but he needs help from our midfield.

Our wings have provided nothing so far and Yossi has looked very impressive when he has played. We all know he looks better in a central role and has the ability to unlock defences and score goals. He's also a pretty mean dribbler. It could be the move to really ignite us into the attacking flowing team that ended last season.

 

[The Nomad]

Why not put Yossi on the wing and Kuyt behind Torres?

 

[Paddy]

[quote author=Mr_V link=topic=35639.msg938327#msg938327 date=1252017342]
Why not put Yossi on the wing and Kuyt behind Torres?
[/quote]

We need a creative player who can make things happen right behind Torres. Gerrard is the best at this. At this time, Yossi would be the second best at this.

 

[SummerOnions]

Makes sense, but won't happen.

 

[franklyfrank]

[quote author=Mr_V link=topic=35639.msg938327#msg938327 date=1252017342]
Why not put Yossi on the wing and Kuyt behind Torres?
[/quote]

no i dont think you are making much sense.

 

[Dreambeliever]

[quote author=Mr_V link=topic=35639.msg938327#msg938327 date=1252017342]
Why not put Yossi on the wing and Kuyt behind Torres?
[/quote]

Kuyts not suited that role at all imo.

His close control isn't as good as Yossi's and he is nowhere near as good at threading the killer throughball.

 

[rurikbird]

[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=35639.msg938326#msg938326 date=1252016784]
Considering the stuttering start we have made and the fact we cannot really afford to lose another game for a while I think we should move to this team


------------------------Reina-------------------------

Johnson---------Carra---------Skittles-----------Insua

----------------Gerrard-------Masher-----------------
Kuyt--------------------------------------------Reira

------------------------Yossi-------------------------

------------------------Torres-------------------------

It's been obvious since our first kick this season that we simply have not been passsing the ball out of defence as much this year without Alonso to take the ball off the back four. (Carragher has been hoofing left right and centre) Either theback four don't trust Lucas enough to give it to him or his movement isn't good enough to get free to receive the ball. Either way we need Gerrard back in the middle to control the team and get things moving while also getting more involved.

I know some will say we cannot disturb the Gerrard Torres link but if they are getting starved of good service from midfield like against Spurs then whats the point? Its a bad state when our biggest threat outside of those two is our RB. Johnson has been magical and the key to us scoring half our goals so far but he needs help from our midfield.

Our wings have provided nothing so far and Yossi has looked very impressive when he has played. We all know he looks better in a central role and has the ability to unlock defences and score goals. He's also a pretty mean dribbler. It could be the move to really ignite us into the attacking flowing team that ended last season.
[/quote]

I could never understand why Rafa hasn't been more open to the idea of playing Yossi through the middle. It's obvious that he's much more effective when he has freedom to roam about the pitch as opposed to being shackled to one of the wings. Maybe Rafa doesn't consider Yossi to be generally good enough to play the "Aimar role" in a club like Liverpool, I can understand that. But when Yossi is on form, and when the team is desperate for some flair and creativity to come FROM SOMEWHERE, why not try the formation Dreambeliever suggested?

 

[spider-Neil]

not going to happen, accept that gerrard is a forward now.

 

[Dreambeliever]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=35639.msg938408#msg938408 date=1252045094]
not going to happen, accept that gerrard is a forward now.
[/quote]

I doubt it will happen doesn't mean we can't discuss whether its a good idea or not.

It's obvious at the moment we are being hammered in the middle of the park.

 

[drizzt]

[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=35639.msg938414#msg938414 date=1252046256]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=35639.msg938408#msg938408 date=1252045094]
not going to happen, accept that gerrard is a forward now.
[/quote]

I doubt it will happen doesn't mean we can't discuss whether its a good idea or not.

It's obvious at the moment we are being hammered in the middle of the park.
[/quote]

It's not obvious to me, what's obvious to me is we are getting hammered on set pieces.

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=Mr_V link=topic=35639.msg938327#msg938327 date=1252017342]
Why not put Yossi on the wing and Kuyt behind Torres?
[/quote]

Why not just leave it as it is, with Gerrard and Torres together as the best partnership in Europe and tell the defense and the team to get their act together when it comes to the task of marking a player efficiently from a setpiece?

 

[Delinquent]

[quote author=drizzt link=topic=35639.msg938417#msg938417 date=1252046622]
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=35639.msg938414#msg938414 date=1252046256]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=35639.msg938408#msg938408 date=1252045094]
not going to happen, accept that gerrard is a forward now.
[/quote]

I doubt it will happen doesn't mean we can't discuss whether its a good idea or not.

It's obvious at the moment we are being hammered in the middle of the park.
[/quote]

It's not obvious to me, what's obvious to me is we are getting hammered on set pieces.
[/quote]

Both Tottenham and Villa were able to dominate the midfield for large periods.

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=35639.msg938421#msg938421 date=1252047184]
[quote author=drizzt link=topic=35639.msg938417#msg938417 date=1252046622]
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=35639.msg938414#msg938414 date=1252046256]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=35639.msg938408#msg938408 date=1252045094]
not going to happen, accept that gerrard is a forward now.
[/quote]

I doubt it will happen doesn't mean we can't discuss whether its a good idea or not.

It's obvious at the moment we are being hammered in the middle of the park.
[/quote]

It's not obvious to me, what's obvious to me is we are getting hammered on set pieces.
[/quote]

Both Tottenham and Villa were able to dominate the midfield for large periods.
[/quote]

In what way? I thought Spurs physically dominated us at times, but it was the first game and we looked well off the pace anyway. Bolton are renowned for being physical and we didn't do too shabby against them in midfield..

I think half the problem is our lack of forward play between Lucas and Masher, neither are a decent outlet who wiill link the play between defence and attack. So what we've see is them sitting deep and often backing off, so when we do challenge, we're deeper than we want to be. It just invites pressure and pace wise we've been dragged all over the place defensively because neither Johnson or Insua are inclined to drop inside when needed. It's created big gaps at the back for Carra and whoever else to cover, we saw that get stretched to the max against Villa.

It's just a few tweeks and a case of Lucas getting his act together or Aquilani being the bees knees, that's all.

 

[drizzt]

[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=35639.msg938421#msg938421 date=1252047184]
[quote author=drizzt link=topic=35639.msg938417#msg938417 date=1252046622]
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=35639.msg938414#msg938414 date=1252046256]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=35639.msg938408#msg938408 date=1252045094]
not going to happen, accept that gerrard is a forward now.
[/quote]

I doubt it will happen doesn't mean we can't discuss whether its a good idea or not.

It's obvious at the moment we are being hammered in the middle of the park.
[/quote]

It's not obvious to me, what's obvious to me is we are getting hammered on set pieces.
[/quote]

Both Tottenham and Villa were able to dominate the midfield for large periods.
[/quote]

Spurs I agree but the whole team was a mess, but Villa played on the counter.

 

[drizzt]

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=35639.msg938429#msg938429 date=1252047675]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=35639.msg938421#msg938421 date=1252047184]
[quote author=drizzt link=topic=35639.msg938417#msg938417 date=1252046622]
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=35639.msg938414#msg938414 date=1252046256]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=35639.msg938408#msg938408 date=1252045094]
not going to happen, accept that gerrard is a forward now.
[/quote]

I doubt it will happen doesn't mean we can't discuss whether its a good idea or not.

It's obvious at the moment we are being hammered in the middle of the park.
[/quote]

It's not obvious to me, what's obvious to me is we are getting hammered on set pieces.
[/quote]

Both Tottenham and Villa were able to dominate the midfield for large periods.
[/quote]

In what way? I thought Spurs physically dominated us at times, but it was the first game and we looked well off the pace anyway. Bolton are renowned for being physical and we didn't do too shabby against them in midfield..

I think half the problem is our lack of forward play between Lucas and Masher, neither are a decent outlet who wiill link the play between defence and attack. So what we've see is them sitting deep and often backing off, so when we do challenge, we're deeper than we want to be. It just invites pressure and pace wise we've been dragged all over the place defensively because neither Johnson or Insua are inclined to drop inside when needed. It's created big gaps at the back for Carra and whoever else to cover, we saw that get stretched to the max against Villa.

It's just a few tweeks and a case of Lucas getting his act together or Aquilani being the bees knees, that's all.
[/quote]

See I haven't seen that either, I've seen Lucas consistently getting into the final 3rd sometimes to the point where he's the furthest forward.

I really like the way our CM is shaping up, if Lucas had a final ball or could finish, I reckon we would have mullered a fair few teams as we are definitely committing way more numbers forward. If Aquilani has the end product that Lucas lacks we'll be pretty special I reckon.

 

[Delinquent]

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=35639.msg938429#msg938429 date=1252047675]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=35639.msg938421#msg938421 date=1252047184]
[quote author=drizzt link=topic=35639.msg938417#msg938417 date=1252046622]
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=35639.msg938414#msg938414 date=1252046256]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=35639.msg938408#msg938408 date=1252045094]
not going to happen, accept that gerrard is a forward now.
[/quote]

I doubt it will happen doesn't mean we can't discuss whether its a good idea or not.

It's obvious at the moment we are being hammered in the middle of the park.
[/quote]

It's not obvious to me, what's obvious to me is we are getting hammered on set pieces.
[/quote]

Both Tottenham and Villa were able to dominate the midfield for large periods.
[/quote]

In what way? I thought Spurs physically dominated us at times, but it was the first game and we looked well off the pace anyway. Bolton are renowned for being physical and we didn't do too shabby against them in midfield..

I think half the problem is our lack of forward play between Lucas and Masher, neither are a decent outlet who wiill link the play between defence and attack. So what we've see is them sitting deep and often backing off, so when we do challenge, we're deeper than we want to be. It just invites pressure and pace wise we've been dragged all over the place defensively because neither Johnson or Insua are inclined to drop inside when needed. It's created big gaps at the back for Carra and whoever else to cover, we saw that get stretched to the max against Villa.

It's just a few tweeks and a case of Lucas getting his act together or Aquilani being the bees knees, that's all.
[/quote]

I don't dispute any of that, mark. But the sum result of what you've so accurately explained, is that we've been dominated in midfield!

Lucas isn't good enough to do what Rafa's asking of him, and Masher doesn't have the offensive tools to offer him any support. Against Bolton, we only ever really looked like winning after Davies was sent off.

We need more quality from that central midfield position. Hopefully Aquilani can provide that.

 

[Delinquent]

[quote author=drizzt link=topic=35639.msg938432#msg938432 date=1252048086]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=35639.msg938429#msg938429 date=1252047675]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=35639.msg938421#msg938421 date=1252047184]
[quote author=drizzt link=topic=35639.msg938417#msg938417 date=1252046622]
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=35639.msg938414#msg938414 date=1252046256]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=35639.msg938408#msg938408 date=1252045094]
not going to happen, accept that gerrard is a forward now.
[/quote]

I doubt it will happen doesn't mean we can't discuss whether its a good idea or not.

It's obvious at the moment we are being hammered in the middle of the park.
[/quote]

It's not obvious to me, what's obvious to me is we are getting hammered on set pieces.
[/quote]

Both Tottenham and Villa were able to dominate the midfield for large periods.
[/quote]

In what way? I thought Spurs physically dominated us at times, but it was the first game and we looked well off the pace anyway. Bolton are renowned for being physical and we didn't do too shabby against them in midfield..

I think half the problem is our lack of forward play between Lucas and Masher, neither are a decent outlet who wiill link the play between defence and attack. So what we've see is them sitting deep and often backing off, so when we do challenge, we're deeper than we want to be. It just invites pressure and pace wise we've been dragged all over the place defensively because neither Johnson or Insua are inclined to drop inside when needed. It's created big gaps at the back for Carra and whoever else to cover, we saw that get stretched to the max against Villa.

It's just a few tweeks and a case of Lucas getting his act together or Aquilani being the bees knees, that's all.
[/quote]

See I haven't seen that either, I've seen Lucas consistently getting into the final 3rd sometimes to the point where he's the furthest forward.

I really like the way our CM is shaping up, if Lucas had a final ball or could finish, I reckon we would have mullered a fair few teams as we are definitely committing way more numbers forward. If Aquilani has the end product that Lucas lacks we'll be pretty special I reckon.
[/quote]

There's absolutely no use in committing numbers forward when the ball is in the centre circle. That is, unless you've got someone who can ping 40 yard passes everywhere. Which we don't.

 

[FoxForceFive]

We didnt have a midfield to dominate.

With Stevie playing so high (not necc wrong) & the others constantly looking to play the ball anywhere but through the centre we simply surrendered the space time & again .

Chelsea this season show stark contrast to that, cos they're playing without & out & out central MF player, yet due to their movement & where they play the ball control the centre of the park more effectively. We play with at least one more player in the central position than they do yet havent been using or trying to use that space. I get the feeling Rafa is pinning his hopes on us playing through the wings most of the time, or using Aquilani, & there's there's no Plan C to back up Plan A or B.

 

[drizzt]

[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=35639.msg938436#msg938436 date=1252048247]
[quote author=drizzt link=topic=35639.msg938432#msg938432 date=1252048086]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=35639.msg938429#msg938429 date=1252047675]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=35639.msg938421#msg938421 date=1252047184]
[quote author=drizzt link=topic=35639.msg938417#msg938417 date=1252046622]
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=35639.msg938414#msg938414 date=1252046256]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=35639.msg938408#msg938408 date=1252045094]
not going to happen, accept that gerrard is a forward now.
[/quote]

I doubt it will happen doesn't mean we can't discuss whether its a good idea or not.

It's obvious at the moment we are being hammered in the middle of the park.
[/quote]

It's not obvious to me, what's obvious to me is we are getting hammered on set pieces.
[/quote]

Both Tottenham and Villa were able to dominate the midfield for large periods.
[/quote]

In what way? I thought Spurs physically dominated us at times, but it was the first game and we looked well off the pace anyway. Bolton are renowned for being physical and we didn't do too shabby against them in midfield..

I think half the problem is our lack of forward play between Lucas and Masher, neither are a decent outlet who wiill link the play between defence and attack. So what we've see is them sitting deep and often backing off, so when we do challenge, we're deeper than we want to be. It just invites pressure and pace wise we've been dragged all over the place defensively because neither Johnson or Insua are inclined to drop inside when needed. It's created big gaps at the back for Carra and whoever else to cover, we saw that get stretched to the max against Villa.

It's just a few tweeks and a case of Lucas getting his act together or Aquilani being the bees knees, that's all.
[/quote]

See I haven't seen that either, I've seen Lucas consistently getting into the final 3rd sometimes to the point where he's the furthest forward.

I really like the way our CM is shaping up, if Lucas had a final ball or could finish, I reckon we would have mullered a fair few teams as we are definitely committing way more numbers forward. If Aquilani has the end product that Lucas lacks we'll be pretty special I reckon.
[/quote]

There's absolutely no use in committing numbers forward when the ball is in the centre circle. That is, unless you've got someone who can ping 40 yard passes everywhere. Which we don't.
[/quote]

So you advance the whole team forward so you don't need to play 40yd passes. Like we've been doing and which has been rewarded with 20-30 shots a game. It's textbook Saachi.

 

[drizzt]

[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=35639.msg938437#msg938437 date=1252048255]
We didnt have a midfield to dominate.

With Stevie playing so high (not necc wrong) & the others constantly looking to play the ball anywhere but through the centre we simply surrendered the space time & again .
[/quote]

See I've noticed Stevie dropping back a lot him and Lucas have been swapping roles and it's been noticable late in games that Stevie is dropping back and trying the hollywoods again. Look at the Torres goal against Bolton again. Kuyt, Torres and Lucas in the box. Stevie deeper and playing the ball over the top. If Aquilani is half what Rafa says he is that kind of fluidity will be great.

Chelsea this season show stark contrast to that, cos they're playing without & out & out central MF player, yet due to their movement & where they play the ball control the centre of the park more effectively. We play with at least one more player in the central position than they do yet havent been using or trying to use that space. I get the feeling Rafa is pinning his hopes on us playing through the wings most of the time, or using Aquilani, & there's there's no Plan C to back up Plan A or B.

Every time he mentions Aquilani it's closely followed by "killer ball", "through ball" or "long shot", so it seems he's hoping Aquilani will be the threat through the middle from deeper than Gerrard. If it works out that way we'll have pretty good penetration from most places.

 

[spider-Neil]

personally I think we simply have to push up as a unit a further ten yards, this will compress play, bring everyone closer together making it easier for us to pass to each other. it will leave us open to the counter attack, especially if the opposition have pace, probably why we didn't push up v spurs (defoe) and villa (Ibangawhore/young).

I simply don't believe the answer is moving gerrard back, that ship has sailed, we have a forwrd now who is capable of getting 20 goals a season who can alos provide the main striker will double figures in assist.

we need to grit our teeth and bear it, lucas hasn't been THAT bad and even in the games we lost with better defending we would have got at least a point.
it's a non starter gerrard isn't going to be moved back we may as well get used to it.

 

[Vlads Quiff]

[quote author=drizzt link=topic=35639.msg938443#msg938443 date=1252049006]
[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=35639.msg938437#msg938437 date=1252048255]
We didnt have a midfield to dominate.

With Stevie playing so high (not necc wrong) & the others constantly looking to play the ball anywhere but through the centre we simply surrendered the space time & again .
[/quote]

See I've noticed Stevie dropping back a lot him and Lucas have been swapping roles and it's been noticable late in games that Stevie is dropping back and trying the hollywoods again. Look at the Torres goal against Bolton again. Kuyt, Torres and Lucas in the box. Stevie deeper and playing the ball over the top. If Aquilani is half what Rafa says he is that kind of fluidity will be great.

Chelsea this season show stark contrast to that, cos they're playing without & out & out central MF player, yet due to their movement & where they play the ball control the centre of the park more effectively. We play with at least one more player in the central position than they do yet havent been using or trying to use that space. I get the feeling Rafa is pinning his hopes on us playing through the wings most of the time, or using Aquilani, & there's there's no Plan C to back up Plan A or B.

Every time he mentions Aquilani it's closely followed by "killer ball", "through ball" or "long shot", so it seems he's hoping Aquilani will be the threat through the middle from deeper than Gerrard. If it works out that way we'll have pretty good penetration from most places.
[/quote]

I don't think that is some clever tactical switch Drizz, I think it is Gerrard, having to come deeper to collect the ball.

Sorry , but at the moment is it evident that the midfield is not creating enough, that is not the fault of Lucas and Masher, it's just they are not that type of player, it is going backwards and sideways so much both Torres and Gerrard are having to come back deeper looking for the ball.
DB is right, for the greater good, for the time being at least Gerrard needs to come back into midfield. Either in the formation that DB suggests or actually playing two up front with Kuyt.

The set piece thing is something different all together and has been an issue for too long now. We only looked slightly more comfortable when Sami was there.

regards

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=35639.msg938446#msg938446 date=1252050050]
[quote author=drizzt link=topic=35639.msg938443#msg938443 date=1252049006]
[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=35639.msg938437#msg938437 date=1252048255]
We didnt have a midfield to dominate.

With Stevie playing so high (not necc wrong) & the others constantly looking to play the ball anywhere but through the centre we simply surrendered the space time & again .
[/quote]

See I've noticed Stevie dropping back a lot him and Lucas have been swapping roles and it's been noticable late in games that Stevie is dropping back and trying the hollywoods again. Look at the Torres goal against Bolton again. Kuyt, Torres and Lucas in the box. Stevie deeper and playing the ball over the top. If Aquilani is half what Rafa says he is that kind of fluidity will be great.

Chelsea this season show stark contrast to that, cos they're playing without & out & out central MF player, yet due to their movement & where they play the ball control the centre of the park more effectively. We play with at least one more player in the central position than they do yet havent been using or trying to use that space. I get the feeling Rafa is pinning his hopes on us playing through the wings most of the time, or using Aquilani, & there's there's no Plan C to back up Plan A or B.

Every time he mentions Aquilani it's closely followed by "killer ball", "through ball" or "long shot", so it seems he's hoping Aquilani will be the threat through the middle from deeper than Gerrard. If it works out that way we'll have pretty good penetration from most places.
[/quote]

I don't think that is some clever tactical switch Drizz, I think it is Gerrard, having to come deeper to collect the ball.

[/quote]

to be fair he doesn't 'have' to come deep to collect the ball, he chooses to. maybe he feels the ball will never reach him if he doesn't go fetch it himself.

 

[drizzt]

[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=35639.msg938446#msg938446 date=1252050050]
[quote author=drizzt link=topic=35639.msg938443#msg938443 date=1252049006]
[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=35639.msg938437#msg938437 date=1252048255]
We didnt have a midfield to dominate.

With Stevie playing so high (not necc wrong) & the others constantly looking to play the ball anywhere but through the centre we simply surrendered the space time & again .
[/quote]

See I've noticed Stevie dropping back a lot him and Lucas have been swapping roles and it's been noticable late in games that Stevie is dropping back and trying the hollywoods again. Look at the Torres goal against Bolton again. Kuyt, Torres and Lucas in the box. Stevie deeper and playing the ball over the top. If Aquilani is half what Rafa says he is that kind of fluidity will be great.

Chelsea this season show stark contrast to that, cos they're playing without & out & out central MF player, yet due to their movement & where they play the ball control the centre of the park more effectively. We play with at least one more player in the central position than they do yet havent been using or trying to use that space. I get the feeling Rafa is pinning his hopes on us playing through the wings most of the time, or using Aquilani, & there's there's no Plan C to back up Plan A or B.

Every time he mentions Aquilani it's closely followed by "killer ball", "through ball" or "long shot", so it seems he's hoping Aquilani will be the threat through the middle from deeper than Gerrard. If it works out that way we'll have pretty good penetration from most places.
[/quote]

I don't think that is some clever tactical switch Drizz, I think it is Gerrard, having to come deeper to collect the ball.

Sorry , but at the moment is it evident that the midfield is not creating enough, that is not the fault of Lucas and Masher, it's just they are not that type of player, it is going backwards and sideways so much both Torres and Gerrard are having to come back deeper looking for the ball.
DB is right, for the greater good, for the time being at least Gerrard needs to come back into midfield. Either in the formation that DB suggests or actually playing two up front with Kuyt.

The set piece thing is something different all together and has been an issue for too long now. We only looked slightly more comfortable when Sami was there.

regards
[/quote]

I think as usual there is probably a bit of both, for example Gerrard was deliberately dragging Muamba back with him to create space against Bolton and Lucas was moving forward into that space. It'll be interesting to see what happens when Aquilani comes in as maybe the interchanging will stop but I think having a CM join the attack as Lucas has been doing is going to be a permanent fixture.

 

[Vlads Quiff]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=35639.msg938447#msg938447 date=1252050280]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=35639.msg938446#msg938446 date=1252050050]
[quote author=drizzt link=topic=35639.msg938443#msg938443 date=1252049006]
[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=35639.msg938437#msg938437 date=1252048255]
We didnt have a midfield to dominate.

With Stevie playing so high (not necc wrong) & the others constantly looking to play the ball anywhere but through the centre we simply surrendered the space time & again .
[/quote]

See I've noticed Stevie dropping back a lot him and Lucas have been swapping roles and it's been noticable late in games that Stevie is dropping back and trying the hollywoods again. Look at the Torres goal against Bolton again. Kuyt, Torres and Lucas in the box. Stevie deeper and playing the ball over the top. If Aquilani is half what Rafa says he is that kind of fluidity will be great.

Chelsea this season show stark contrast to that, cos they're playing without & out & out central MF player, yet due to their movement & where they play the ball control the centre of the park more effectively. We play with at least one more player in the central position than they do yet havent been using or trying to use that space. I get the feeling Rafa is pinning his hopes on us playing through the wings most of the time, or using Aquilani, & there's there's no Plan C to back up Plan A or B.

Every time he mentions Aquilani it's closely followed by "killer ball", "through ball" or "long shot", so it seems he's hoping Aquilani will be the threat through the middle from deeper than Gerrard. If it works out that way we'll have pretty good penetration from most places.
[/quote]

I don't think that is some clever tactical switch Drizz, I think it is Gerrard, having to come deeper to collect the ball.

[/quote]

to be fair he doesn't 'have' to come deep to collect the ball, he chooses to. maybe he feels the ball will never reach him if he doesn't go fetch it himself.
[/quote]

That's the same thing you fucking pedant

regards

 

[Friend no. 2]

[quote author=Mr_V link=topic=35639.msg938327#msg938327 date=1252017342]
Why not put Yossi on the wing and Kuyt behind Torres?
[/quote]

we tried this against Arsenal last year, but they swapped at half time and both had great 2nd halves..

 

[Vlads Quiff]

[quote author=drizzt link=topic=35639.msg938453#msg938453 date=1252050489]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=35639.msg938446#msg938446 date=1252050050]
[quote author=drizzt link=topic=35639.msg938443#msg938443 date=1252049006]
[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=35639.msg938437#msg938437 date=1252048255]
We didnt have a midfield to dominate.

With Stevie playing so high (not necc wrong) & the others constantly looking to play the ball anywhere but through the centre we simply surrendered the space time & again .
[/quote]

See I've noticed Stevie dropping back a lot him and Lucas have been swapping roles and it's been noticable late in games that Stevie is dropping back and trying the hollywoods again. Look at the Torres goal against Bolton again. Kuyt, Torres and Lucas in the box. Stevie deeper and playing the ball over the top. If Aquilani is half what Rafa says he is that kind of fluidity will be great.

Chelsea this season show stark contrast to that, cos they're playing without & out & out central MF player, yet due to their movement & where they play the ball control the centre of the park more effectively. We play with at least one more player in the central position than they do yet havent been using or trying to use that space. I get the feeling Rafa is pinning his hopes on us playing through the wings most of the time, or using Aquilani, & there's there's no Plan C to back up Plan A or B.

Every time he mentions Aquilani it's closely followed by "killer ball", "through ball" or "long shot", so it seems he's hoping Aquilani will be the threat through the middle from deeper than Gerrard. If it works out that way we'll have pretty good penetration from most places.
[/quote]

I don't think that is some clever tactical switch Drizz, I think it is Gerrard, having to come deeper to collect the ball.

Sorry , but at the moment is it evident that the midfield is not creating enough, that is not the fault of Lucas and Masher, it's just they are not that type of player, it is going backwards and sideways so much both Torres and Gerrard are having to come back deeper looking for the ball.
DB is right, for the greater good, for the time being at least Gerrard needs to come back into midfield. Either in the formation that DB suggests or actually playing two up front with Kuyt.

The set piece thing is something different all together and has been an issue for too long now. We only looked slightly more comfortable when Sami was there.

regards
[/quote]

I think as usual there is probably a bit of both, for example Gerrard was deliberately dragging Muamba back with him to create space against Bolton and Lucas was moving forward into that space. It'll be interesting to see what happens when Aquilani comes in as maybe the interchanging will stop but I think having a CM join the attack as Lucas has been doing is going to be a permanent fixture.
[/quote]

With Aquilani there it will be a different game, he will be more creative than either Masher or Lucas can be and something will flow from the middle. The role is key. Thinking about it perhaps that is why Xabi had such a great season last year in that he was the fulcrum of this whole Gerrard Torres partnership.

regards

 

[drizzt]

[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=35639.msg938458#msg938458 date=1252050688]
[quote author=drizzt link=topic=35639.msg938453#msg938453 date=1252050489]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=35639.msg938446#msg938446 date=1252050050]
[quote author=drizzt link=topic=35639.msg938443#msg938443 date=1252049006]
[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=35639.msg938437#msg938437 date=1252048255]
We didnt have a midfield to dominate.

With Stevie playing so high (not necc wrong) & the others constantly looking to play the ball anywhere but through the centre we simply surrendered the space time & again .
[/quote]

See I've noticed Stevie dropping back a lot him and Lucas have been swapping roles and it's been noticable late in games that Stevie is dropping back and trying the hollywoods again. Look at the Torres goal against Bolton again. Kuyt, Torres and Lucas in the box. Stevie deeper and playing the ball over the top. If Aquilani is half what Rafa says he is that kind of fluidity will be great.

Chelsea this season show stark contrast to that, cos they're playing without & out & out central MF player, yet due to their movement & where they play the ball control the centre of the park more effectively. We play with at least one more player in the central position than they do yet havent been using or trying to use that space. I get the feeling Rafa is pinning his hopes on us playing through the wings most of the time, or using Aquilani, & there's there's no Plan C to back up Plan A or B.

Every time he mentions Aquilani it's closely followed by "killer ball", "through ball" or "long shot", so it seems he's hoping Aquilani will be the threat through the middle from deeper than Gerrard. If it works out that way we'll have pretty good penetration from most places.
[/quote]

I don't think that is some clever tactical switch Drizz, I think it is Gerrard, having to come deeper to collect the ball.

Sorry , but at the moment is it evident that the midfield is not creating enough, that is not the fault of Lucas and Masher, it's just they are not that type of player, it is going backwards and sideways so much both Torres and Gerrard are having to come back deeper looking for the ball.
DB is right, for the greater good, for the time being at least Gerrard needs to come back into midfield. Either in the formation that DB suggests or actually playing two up front with Kuyt.

The set piece thing is something different all together and has been an issue for too long now. We only looked slightly more comfortable when Sami was there.

regards
[/quote]

I think as usual there is probably a bit of both, for example Gerrard was deliberately dragging Muamba back with him to create space against Bolton and Lucas was moving forward into that space. It'll be interesting to see what happens when Aquilani comes in as maybe the interchanging will stop but I think having a CM join the attack as Lucas has been doing is going to be a permanent fixture.
[/quote]

With Aquilani there it will be a different game, he will be more creative than either Masher or Lucas can be and something will flow from the middle. The role is key. Thinking about it perhaps that is why Xabi had such a great season last year in that he was the fulcrum of this whole Gerrard Torres partnership.

regards
[/quote]

That's basically what we are all banking on isn't it!

 

[Vlads Quiff]

It is, but in the mean time we should not be using Lucas in place of Xabi, or hould that be Aquilani, and things need to change until he is fit. If Aquilani does not deliver we will have to rethink, but I firmly believe if we carry on with Masher and Lucas in the middle our tenuous title hopes will be blown out of the water by the end of October.
If that does happen and Aquilani does not fit or takes too long to settle and or Torres is missing for any time, we will struggle to qualify for the CL, there is a lot of competition around this year, and our squad if wafer thin.
Doing something positive now is crucial.

regards

 

[Squiggles]

Exactly

Gerrard has to be dropped back and either Kuyt or Yossi need putting around Torres. What we've been witnessing so far is exactly what I feared in the summer, that we desperately lack innovation in the middle of the mark.