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Stability, transfers and a fair bit of waffling..

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Good post Mark, however there are a few things.

Rafa has always had the standoffish approach to players I just think its more noted in players who aren't getting picked. It's something he really needs to work on.

In fact the only player in recent history I can remember that has got back in favour when so obviously out is Yossi and I'm positive thats down to Yossi and not the manager.

That aside his massive mistake over the last 18 months was buying Keane and not realising the kind of player both on and off the pitch he was getting. How did he not do his research and realise he wouldn't want him almost instantly? To blow 20M like that was crazy and our squad hasn't recovered.

I said the day he signed it was a big mistake and ultimately would cost us the title when we were so close to having a squad to win it and I think I've been proved right. A lack of cutting edge in the final third against weaker teams cost us last year. That money went on a player that was not used.

This summer was all about midfield. We simple have lost our mistro in Alonso and effectively for the 1st 10 games this year replaced him with Lucas. A mindboggling misstep by Rafa which could ultimately cost us fourth. He gambled on the likes of Gerrard and Torres to get us going in the first games without Aquaman and its backfired horribly. Simple as that. You want answers thats it. Everything else is a side note.

Our midfield now consists of a very below standard Lucas and and off form Masher (Neither capable of getting the ball to Gerrard or torres and hence both have been isolated when playing. Any decent team with any sort of midffield have ran over us. The only fix was Gerrard in the middle and Yossi in the hole. He did this for one game we won 4-0 Yossi scored a hat trick and what does he do. He changes back to the Lucsa love in the next game.

He totally blinded by Lucas and it could cost us everything yet. I could go on but I'm tired.
And this is not knee jerk either I've seen it coming fro ma long way.
 
[quote author=Hansern link=topic=36577.msg967729#msg967729 date=1256129248]

c) we replace average players with new average players
[/quote]

that's not true this season. alright the dury is out on aqualini but we replaced arbeloa with johnson.
 
[quote author=ArtOfficialIntelligence link=topic=36577.msg967780#msg967780 date=1256134326]
Aquilani on the bench against Sunderland tonight!

*Desperately looking for positives*
[/quote]

This is good news.
 
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=36577.msg967545#msg967545 date=1256115524]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=36577.msg967535#msg967535 date=1256115010]
And he's rightly being scrutinised for having a weak squad in his fifth season as manager.
[/quote]

The irony of course is that this comes just after he banged on and huffed and puffed and threatened to leave unless he had his own way in the transfer market, and got it.

regards
[/quote]

Sorry but that's slanted. Rafa wanted out from under being second-guessed all the time (I won't reopen previous arguments about Parry himself) and the freedom to stand or fall by his own decisions. He's certainly not "had his own way" pure and simple in terms of money to spend.
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=36577.msg967795#msg967795 date=1256136183]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=36577.msg967545#msg967545 date=1256115524]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=36577.msg967535#msg967535 date=1256115010]
And he's rightly being scrutinised for having a weak squad in his fifth season as manager.
[/quote]

The irony of course is that this comes just after he banged on and huffed and puffed and threatened to leave unless he had his own way in the transfer market, and got it.

regards
[/quote]

Sorry but that's slanted. Rafa wanted out from under being second-guessed all the time (I won't reopen previous arguments about Parry himself) and the freedom to stand or fall by his own decisions. He's certainly not "had his own way" pure and simple in terms of money to spend.
[/quote]

I didn't say he had his own way JJ, I pointed out the irony.
Still, he is culpable for letting the squad get too thin, if not for failing to bring in top players.

regards
 
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=36577.msg967767#msg967767 date=1256133716]
Good post Mark, however there are a few things.

Rafa has always had the standoffish approach to players I just think its more noted in players who aren't getting picked. It's something he really needs to work on.

In fact the only player in recent history I can remember that has got back in favour when so obviously out is Yossi and I'm positive thats down to Yossi and not the manager.

That aside his massive mistake over the last 18 months was buying Keane and not realising the kind of player both on and off the pitch he was getting. How did he not do his research and realise he wouldn't want him almost instantly? To blow 20M like that was crazy and our squad hasn't recovered.

I said the day he signed it was a big mistake and ultimately would cost us the title when we were so close to having a squad to win it and I think I've been proved right. A lack of cutting edge in the final third against weaker teams cost us last year. That money went on a player that was not used.

This summer was all about midfield. We simple have lost our mistro in Alonso and effectively for the 1st 10 games this year replaced him with Lucas. A mindboggling misstep by Rafa which could ultimately cost us fourth. He gambled on the likes of Gerrard and Torres to get us going in the first games without Aquaman and its backfired horribly. Simple as that. You want answers thats it. Everything else is a side note.

Our midfield now consists of a very below standard Lucas and and off form Masher (Neither capable of getting the ball to Gerrard or torres and hence both have been isolated when playing. Any decent team with any sort of midffield have ran over us. The only fix was Gerrard in the middle and Yossi in the hole. He did this for one game we won 4-0 Yossi scored a hat trick and what does he do. He changes back to the Lucsa love in the next game.

He totally blinded by Lucas and it could cost us everything yet. I could go on but I'm tired.
And this is not knee jerk either I've seen it coming fro ma long way.
[/quote]

Completely agree with most everything here DB. If only we had bought Arshavin instead of Keane or when we sold Keane we would be so much better off right now. That whole debacle has been mind boggling. We bought a prem proven forward (not gonna go into his negatives) then we sold him back to the same team 6 months later for less and never replaced him. Lucas has played every game. Its astonishing how little he has done that is praiseworthy. His minimal improvement from shit house to fails to flatter cost us the first quarter of our season.

All trophies are still in reach and if we had the clever manager we might be able to rectify it. I could even see Benitez steering us back thanks to Aquilani knocking Lucas out of the rotation. But Benitez lack a few vital things as a manager; an eye for a bargain(there have been a good 7-10 of them in the last 2 years, our best being Riera) , he puts no priority in athleticism and the way it can increase the margin of error and the way he gets blindly in love with some, completely lacking in faith of the others and is overall a very uncharismatic person.

I don't know if Rafa should stay(definitely not another 5 years without winning the PL), but I know if we continue to give him time he will get it right. He just isn't going to buy any of these and make life easier on himself: Bent at 10m, Krancjar (undisclosed, anything under 12 was good business), Bassong (8m), Gutierrez (8m), N'zogbia(6m), Corluka(8m), Paintsil (6.3 mill(Zamora was included in that), Hugo Rodallega (4.5m).

Instead look at our 2008/2009 transfer - plainly we gave away more quality, goals, and creativity then we bought. of what we bought, 1 isnt here. None are playing consistently and 2 we really want gone. Best part of that year was Riera and what he did for us last year. Next best is a toss up between getting Kelly back from loan and buying N'gog(1.5m - a decent but completely unproven bargain). Kind of makes sense our troubles this year. And especially without T+G compared to last year.


Liverpool FC .:. Transfers 2008/2009
In
Philipp Degen Defender Borussia Dortmund
Diego Goalkeeper SE Palmeiras
Andrea Dossena Defender Udinese Calcio
Adam Hammill Midfielder Blackpool FC
Robbie Keane Forward Tottenham Hotspur
Martin Kelly Defender Huddersfield Town
David Martin Goalkeeper Leicester City
David N'Gog Forward Paris St. Germain
Riera Midfielder Espanyol Barcelona
Out
Peter Crouch Forward Portsmouth FC
Steve Finnan Defender Espanyol Barcelona
Adam Hammill Midfielder Blackpool FC
Robbie Keane Forward Tottenham Hotspur
Harry Kewell Midfielder Galatasaray
Sebastián Leto Midfielder Olympiakos Piräus
Craig Lindfield Forward AFC Bournemouth
David Martin Goalkeeper Leicester City
Jermaine Pennant Midfielder Portsmouth FC
John Arne Riise Defender AS Roma
Andriy Voronin Forward Hertha BSC
 
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=36577.msg967826#msg967826 date=1256139080]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=36577.msg967795#msg967795 date=1256136183]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=36577.msg967545#msg967545 date=1256115524]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=36577.msg967535#msg967535 date=1256115010]
And he's rightly being scrutinised for having a weak squad in his fifth season as manager.
[/quote]

The irony of course is that this comes just after he banged on and huffed and puffed and threatened to leave unless he had his own way in the transfer market, and got it.

regards
[/quote]

Sorry but that's slanted. Rafa wanted out from under being second-guessed all the time (I won't reopen previous arguments about Parry himself) and the freedom to stand or fall by his own decisions. He's certainly not "had his own way" pure and simple in terms of money to spend.
[/quote]

I didn't say he had his own way JJ, I pointed out the irony.
Still, he is culpable for letting the squad get too thin, if not for failing to bring in top players.

regards
[/quote]

Fair enough, Vlad. That I do agree with.
 
I don't see the point in finally ensuring you have complete say over transfer at precisely the point we run out of the money.

It seems the only scenario which would happen at Liverpool Football Club.
 
Oh come on, Squiggs. There's no way Rafa envisaged it happening, any more than the rest of us did. On the contrary, knowing the current owners my guess is (a) that they gave him indications that it wouldn't, and (b) that their subsequent insistence that the increased wages awarded to Mascher and others be set against the transfer kitty came as a very nasty surprise.
 
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=36577.msg967939#msg967939 date=1256144635]
I don't see the point in finally ensuring you have complete say over transfer at precisely the point we run out of the money.

It seems the only scenario which would happen at Liverpool Football Club.
[/quote]

A friend of a friend who knows our new CEO says that Rafa got a budget for transfers and contracts and put most of it into long contracts for what he saw as vital players.

Thats why there were not as many new signings.
 
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=36577.msg967969#msg967969 date=1256147504]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=36577.msg967939#msg967939 date=1256144635]
I don't see the point in finally ensuring you have complete say over transfer at precisely the point we run out of the money.

It seems the only scenario which would happen at Liverpool Football Club.
[/quote]

A friend of a friend who knows our new CEO says that Rafa got a budget for transfers and contracts and put most of it into long contracts for what he saw as vital players.

Thats why there were not as many new signings.
[/quote]

such as? the likes of kuyt didn't need long contracts as they're not good enough to go to more glamorous clubs. the only person i'd have tied down was torres, agger and reina. the likes of gerrard wouldn't need it.

bizarre if true mate. but then that's rafa
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=36577.msg967961#msg967961 date=1256147237]
Oh come on, Squiggs. There's no way Rafa envisaged it happening, any more than the rest of us did. On the contrary, knowing the current owners my guess is (a) that they gave him indications that it wouldn't, and (b) that their subsequent insistence that the increased wages awarded to Mascher and others be set against the transfer kitty came as a very nasty surprise.
[/quote]

I wasn't proportioning blame but it's just something that makes you think 'typical'.
 
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=36577.msg967969#msg967969 date=1256147504]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=36577.msg967939#msg967939 date=1256144635]
I don't see the point in finally ensuring you have complete say over transfer at precisely the point we run out of the money.

It seems the only scenario which would happen at Liverpool Football Club.
[/quote]

A friend of a friend who knows our new CEO says that Rafa got a budget for transfers and contracts and put most of it into long contracts for what he saw as vital players.

Thats why there were not as many new signings.
[/quote]

As I said, their lumping in of transfers and wages, means that as long as there is inflation, there will be very little net spend, and it is more likely there will be a thin squad. It's hardly a choice, we had to spend more on Gerrard, Torres etc, and their renegotiated rates are always going to be in line with rates that have risen dramatically recently.
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=36577.msg968233#msg968233 date=1256159026]
When exactly was it that wage levels didn't have an impact on transfer funds ?
[/quote]

*awaits answer*
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=36577.msg968233#msg968233 date=1256159026]
When exactly was it that wage levels didn't have an impact on transfer funds ?
[/quote]

When they are being discussed on an internet forum?



Do I get a prize?
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=36577.msg968233#msg968233 date=1256159026]
When exactly was it that wage levels didn't have an impact on transfer funds ?
[/quote]

As I stated in this very thread "Of course the two have always been correlated and determined purchasing"

However, several statements were made to the effect that a certain fee would be available for transfer funds. Lumping the two in together this year was a convenient way to recharacterise things given financial constraints imposed not by the state of the club itself, but by the nature of their ownership.

Again, the 20M yearly investment they itemise in their own investment literature, during an inflationary period for player wages, will always tend to having thin squad. What is supposed to make up the difference, and I've taken Rafa to task for this repeatedly, is the considerable youth investment made consistently over the last several years. We've seen precious few dividends from this.
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=36577.msg968233#msg968233 date=1256159026]
When exactly was it that wage levels didn't have an impact on transfer funds ?
[/quote]
Before CM became FM!!
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=36577.msg968233#msg968233 date=1256159026]
When exactly was it that wage levels didn't have an impact on transfer funds ?
[/quote]

That's missing the point really Ross, it might be standard practice to budget for contract renewals but it's being used in this instance to paper over the fact that we've invested nothing this Summer into the purchase of new players.

It was used (even by Purslow) as a means of saying we've spent X amount this Summer, which no one else does. Purslow stated that we spent "no less than what we normally do, with a net spend of around £20m", which it doesn't take a genuis to work out to be a load of complete fabricated bullshit.

Would United come out and say "We've spent £40m this Summer", when only say, £25m has actually gone on players? Would they have the gall to treat their fans as though they were THAT stupid?

And this is without taking into consideration that our actual net transfer spend was fuckall.
 
* there is money for finishing high up the table - we finished 2nd
* there money for TV
* there is money for qualifying for the CL - this was guaranteed as we didn't have to play a qualifier
* there 'should' be money set aside each season for sales
* we sold alonso for 30 million

what was spent this summer borders on a fucking DISGRACE wages or no wages. if rafa still has money burning a hole in his pocket then fair enough, if rafa didn't spend because there was no money TO spend then I worry for the future of this club.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=36577.msg968619#msg968619 date=1256203592]
* there is money for finishing high up the table - we finished 2nd
* there money for TV
* there is money for qualifying for the CL - this was guaranteed as we didn't have to play a qualifier
* there 'should' be money set aside each season for sales
* we sold alonso for 30 million

what was spent this summer borders on a fucking DISGRACE wages or no wages. if rafa still has money burning a hole in his pocket then fair enough, if rafa didn't spend because there was no money TO spend then I worry for the future of this club.
[/quote]

I don't know the exact figures, but as reports state:

Alonso OUT £30m
Robbie Keane OUT £15m
Arbeloa OUT £3.5m
Paul Anderson £250,000
Leto OUT £3m

Glen Johnson IN £17m
Kyrgiakos IN £2m
Aquilani IN £17m (Rising to £19m potentially)

A short fall of over £15m, and if you consider the myriad of undisclosed fees received for outgoing youngsters too. Then there are the standard revenues received from TV and our League and Cup revenues too.

Contracts have been renewed but we've also removed relatively high earners in Pennant, Hyypia, Alonso, Arbeloa and Keane (a factor overlooked too).
 
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