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Stability, transfers and a fair bit of waffling..

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mark1975

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I don't even think it's just the transfers we've brought in, it's also the way in which we've managed players once they've slipped down the pecking order that has had such a devastating effect on our squad.

Players who slip from being a first choice seem to get treated with disdain and that's why we've lost a fair few 'decent' squad players, like Crouch, Warnock, etc..

Look at Riera now, the way he's been treated since his 'bustup' exemplifies how once you cross the manager or slip below standard, there's pretty much no turning back. Add the fact that the purse strings have been tightened, and it's clear at times Benitez has had to make it well known to players that they're no longer wanted, in order to be able to move them on. The plus being we generally receive good fees when these players are sold on, the minus... Well we're seeing that now when we look on the pitch in the absence of two or three first teamers.

Yeah we've had our fair share of duff buys, though in Babel and Lucas you only have to look up the East Lancs to see how gambles on younger players don't necessarily always work out, Nani and Anderson have so far proven costly, underwhelming buys too, more than a combined double of what we paid for our two.

Then we have players of the standard of Agger, Reina, Skrtel, Arbeloa, Yossi, Kuyt, Alonso and Garcia, all brought in for a relatively modest price of less than £11m each, most were less than £6m. Then there's Johnson, and we're yet to see how Aquillani will fair. So it's clear that he has bought well at times within a budget, while the prospect of error obviously increases too, the lower the price.

There's no escaping the fact that the Summer of 2008 was a disaster. Keane, Dossena, the Brazilian goalkeeper and Riera for a staggering combined fee of just shy of £40m. That was a devastating blow to our squad, despite us pulling together, getting a good balanced side out there and generally exceeding expectation. Had that money been better spent on one more top quality player and a couple of the lads we were looking at from the Premiership this Summer, then it might now be an entirely different story.

Regards Benitez, we win as a team and we lose as a team. There's no escaping criticism, but the knee-jerking is pathetic, he's the same manager who's got us as close as we've ever been to the title, since we last won it, and he's also the same guy who's proven one of the shrewdest coaches around in the knockout stages of the CL, given how thin our squad has been in recent years and how stretched we've been in the final months of the season. It's a blip but it's probably his strongest test yet and one he must prove he's good enough to steer us out of.

The 'team' itself with everyone fighting fit is as good as we've had in the last (almost) two decades, but beyond that there's no escaping our lack of quality. Yeah we've bought poorly when looking at the likes of Degen, Voronin etc (though they were frees), but fans have also demanded that we stop going for quantity and start going for quality (at a price), well I guess this is the draw-back. In most positions in the side we have quality. Few teams can boast some of the talent we've got on the books. But when you've got a net spend each Summer of less than £20m, it becomes increasingly more difficult to do both, in adding quality like Johnson, and picking up enough quantity to make a difference over those potential injury crisis's.

It's a tough job but someone's got to do it. As Farky touched upon the other day, I'd love to see our advertising credentials when looking for a potential suitor to replace Rafa.

"Must be prepared to put up with two owners who don't speak to each other, be willing to work on a net spend of fuckall and be expected to put up consistent, credible titles challenges".

Wake up eh?
 
Good post, Mark.

Sometimes I wonder why we pump lots of cash into our academy and next to nothing comes out of it. Given our limited transfer funds these days bringing out some talent through our own ranks should be an absolute must.
 
What worries me about Benitez transfers is the complete lack of pace and power he looks for. Players like Kuyt, Yossi, Riera, Voronin, Lucas etc etc they all got different strengths, but they all lack pace. This slows down or game and makes us easy to defend against...
 
It's a decent post, the most interesting part is Rafa's treatment of squad/first team players, like Riera & co, and how the impacts upon our new financial restrains - the rest has pretty much been said before.

I thing is, I can't see Rafa becoming all cuddly because we're short of a few quid.
 
the summer of 2008 transfers are like GH shocking summer when he got the senegalise muppets

Rafa has had 5 yrs, this season should be his last
 
Good post, and some good points Mark.
The only thing I would disagree with is the term "knee-jerk", and that has been banded about for some time every time we lose.
There are a number of people, myself included, that have , for some time now, questioned many of Rafa's decisions, and remain less enthusiastic about him than others.
I wouldn't say it was knee-jerk, I would say it was ongoing and increasing criticism.
regards
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=36577.msg967494#msg967494 date=1256112536]
fans have also demanded that we stop going for quantity and start going for quality (at a price), well I guess this is the draw-back. In most positions in the side we have quality. Few teams can boast some of the talent we've got on the books. But when you've got a net spend each Summer of less than £20m, it becomes increasingly more difficult to do both, in adding quality like Johnson, and picking up enough quantity to make a difference over those potential injury crisis's.
[/quote]

This is a conundrum made far worse when the kitty for purchases is lumped in with wages directly. Of course the two have always been correlated and determined purchasing, but to have it a simple total in order to defend what was clearly limited spending has significant consequences. We behaved like a salary capped NFL team this last summer. It's tough to have continuity in that league as well.

It is impossible for us to go on like that. Think about the absurdity of having a fixed yearly sum for wages and player transfers, when over the last five years, there has been significant inflation in player sales. Benayoun is on 70k and Glen Johnson costs 18M+ that's staggering. That would have never happened five years ago, but here we are. As our players renegotiate their salaries up to meet new market prices, where will the money come from?

Also, in general the cheaper the player in terms of transfer fee, assuming they are of any quality, and hence in demand, the more lucrative the contract. That means there really are no freebies.
 
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=36577.msg967531#msg967531 date=1256114747]
Good post, and some good points Mark.
The only thing I would disagree with is the term "knee-jerk", and that has been banded about for some time every time we lose.
There are a number of people, myself included, that have , for some time now, questioned many of Rafa's decisions, and remain less enthusiastic about him than others.
I wouldn't say it was knee-jerk, I would say it was ongoing and increasing criticism.
regards
[/quote]

Yeah I was talking more about the Rages and co of this World.. Nowt wrong with the general criticism though (as you said), as most of us have expressed these concerns plenty of times before.
 
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=36577.msg967531#msg967531 date=1256114747]
I would say it was ongoing and increasing criticism.
[/quote]

There's been this criticism of Rafa every single season he's been here.

Eventually someone will likely get it right, but it certainly won't vindicate each episode, or the position.
 
I've read a few posts which have made me cringe - mainly from Glock, Ussered and Zlaten - but I don't think there's been a huge kneejerk in fairness. The potential replacement threads seem pretty light-hearted way to pass time on a FF in all truth. I don't think there was anything sinister in it.

More questions are being asked, though, that's for sure. And he's rightly being scrutinised for having a weak squad in his fifth season as manager.
 
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=36577.msg967535#msg967535 date=1256115010]
And he's rightly being scrutinised for having a weak squad in his fifth season as manager.
[/quote]

The irony of course is that this comes just after he banged on and huffed and puffed and threatened to leave unless he had his own way in the transfer market, and got it.

regards
 
A lot of things that Rafa does gets up people's noses, especially when we are going through a bad patch, and substitutions like the one he made last night with six minutes to go is one of those things.

I mean you take off your most dangerous attacking player and repace his with one who wouldnt get a kick in a horsebox.
 
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=36577.msg967531#msg967531 date=1256114747]
Good post, and some good points Mark.
The only thing I would disagree with is the term "knee-jerk", and that has been banded about for some time every time we lose.
There are a number of people, myself included, that have , for some time now, questioned many of Rafa's decisions, and remain less enthusiastic about him than others.
I wouldn't say it was knee-jerk, I would say it was ongoing and increasing criticism.
regards
[/quote]

Come off it Vlad!

You wanted Rafa out mid way through last season until you had a change of heart at the last minute.
 
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=36577.msg967551#msg967551 date=1256115933]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=36577.msg967531#msg967531 date=1256114747]
Good post, and some good points Mark.
The only thing I would disagree with is the term "knee-jerk", and that has been banded about for some time every time we lose.
There are a number of people, myself included, that have , for some time now, questioned many of Rafa's decisions, and remain less enthusiastic about him than others.
I wouldn't say it was knee-jerk, I would say it was ongoing and increasing criticism.
regards
[/quote]

Come off it Vlad!

You wanted Rafa out mid way through last season until you had a change of heart at the last minute.

[/quote]

I am not saying I didn't Rafa, I have not been convinced for a couple of years, as you well know, so that is hardly knee-jerk. Not that I have particularly contributed to a Rafa bashing debate in the last days with any great way.


regards
 
I will point out that although we had a disastrous summer last year we finished 2nd with our highest prem points tally ever so it was like the summer of 2002 where we suffered for poor buys.
I think transfers is a problem but not THE problem, the problem is too many first team players are off form and the depth of sqaud means they pretty much have to play themselves back into form.
 
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=36577.msg967565#msg967565 date=1256117211]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=36577.msg967551#msg967551 date=1256115933]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=36577.msg967531#msg967531 date=1256114747]
Good post, and some good points Mark.
The only thing I would disagree with is the term "knee-jerk", and that has been banded about for some time every time we lose.
There are a number of people, myself included, that have , for some time now, questioned many of Rafa's decisions, and remain less enthusiastic about him than others.
I wouldn't say it was knee-jerk, I would say it was ongoing and increasing criticism.
regards
[/quote]

Come off it Vlad!

You wanted Rafa out mid way through last season until you had a change of heart at the last minute.

[/quote]

I am not saying I didn't Rafa, I have not been convinced for a couple of years, as you well know, so that is hardly knee-jerk. Not that I have particularly contributed to a Rafa bashing debate in the last days with any great way.


regards

[/quote]

Fair enough Vlad.

I might not agree with you on this subject, but at least you're decent about it.
 
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=36577.msg967582#msg967582 date=1256118244]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=36577.msg967565#msg967565 date=1256117211]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=36577.msg967551#msg967551 date=1256115933]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=36577.msg967531#msg967531 date=1256114747]
Good post, and some good points Mark.
The only thing I would disagree with is the term "knee-jerk", and that has been banded about for some time every time we lose.
There are a number of people, myself included, that have , for some time now, questioned many of Rafa's decisions, and remain less enthusiastic about him than others.
I wouldn't say it was knee-jerk, I would say it was ongoing and increasing criticism.
regards
[/quote]

Come off it Vlad!

You wanted Rafa out mid way through last season until you had a change of heart at the last minute.

[/quote]

I am not saying I didn't Rafa, I have not been convinced for a couple of years, as you well know, so that is hardly knee-jerk. Not that I have particularly contributed to a Rafa bashing debate in the last days with any great way.


regards

[/quote]

Fair enough Vlad.

I might not agree with you on this subject, but at least you're decent about it.
[/quote]

I am a decent sort of chap Rafa.....honest 😉

regards
 
[quote author=Insignificance link=topic=36577.msg967513#msg967513 date=1256113796]
What worries me about Benitez transfers is the complete lack of pace and power he looks for. Players like Kuyt, Yossi, Riera, Voronin, Lucas etc etc they all got different strengths, but they all lack pace. This slows down or game and makes us easy to defend against...
[/quote]

Easy to defend against?

I thought we were the top scorers in the league and the 1st team the last few seasons to score 100+ goals first, beating all the 'attacking' teams to it?

But I know what you mean, if some teams 'park the bus' we have had trouble breaking them down, there is a fine line between glory and mediocrity.
 
Excellent post mate.

It's sad to see Warnock playing so well for Blackburn and Villa, when you see Aurelio, Insua and Dossena. Local lad, and should have been kept as a back up.

At the speed we're going we're never going to have that strong squad, because;

a) we don't have as much money as the other top teams
b) our youth policy is miles behind Arsenal (who also have limited funds)
c) we replace average players with new average players
 
even i agree with most of that.

what gets me is that there is very little evidence to suggest that rafa is learning from any of this.
 
[quote author=Hansern link=topic=36577.msg967729#msg967729 date=1256129248]
It's sad to see Warnock playing so well for Blackburn and Villa, when you see Aurelio, Insua and Dossena. Local lad, and should have been kept as a back up.
[/quote]

No-one was particularly bothered when we let go of him - rash in the tackle and poor positionally is what I recall many saying.

We could probably sell Insua to a crap team like Blackburn and see people wishing we had've held onto him - if you fuck up in a team like that, it's far less noticeable because the rest of them aren't particularly good either.
 
Good and eloquent post as usual Mark but I agree with Vlad about the knee-jerk term.
Stability is the word and thats what we're lacking at the moment at every level of the club.
 
[quote author=keniget link=topic=36577.msg967738#msg967738 date=1256130094]
[quote author=Hansern link=topic=36577.msg967729#msg967729 date=1256129248]
It's sad to see Warnock playing so well for Blackburn and Villa, when you see Aurelio, Insua and Dossena. Local lad, and should have been kept as a back up.
[/quote]

No-one was particularly bothered when we let go of him - rash in the tackle and poor positionally is what I recall many saying.

We could probably sell Insua to a crap team like Blackburn and see people wishing we had've held onto him - if you fuck up in a team like that, it's far less noticeable because the rest of them aren't particularly good either.
[/quote]

Good point Ken. But I'd rather have him as a back up than Dossena and Aurelio. Even more so with new rules coming in. Also, in some matches we lack a bit of hard as nails, nastystreak hard playing heart on your sleeve players, and he was like that. Aurelio and Dossena are very good at putting their arse out instead of getting stuck in.
 
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