So why's he bought Benteke... ?

[Ryan]

You were making the point that its okay to have way more quality than the number of starting positions in a team and to have competition for places. Well that just isn't the case for Chelsea. They have a Best XI. Anyone besides those 11 players starting is simply a step down because they were forced into the change for some reason. It's okay to be wrong. Just a pity it comes so soon after @peterhague pointed this out to you.

Except Mourinho started the season with Schurrle in his 'best 11', dropped Cahill for 2 months so he could play Zouma in that 'best 11', and Ramires featured in two thirds of the league games, starting a dozen in the 'best 11' cos Mourinho preferred him away from home in the big games, and so on.

And then there were the prolonged injuries and/or suspensions to Costa (who missed 15 league games by the way), Oscar, Willian and Azpilicueta.

Only 2 of the "best 11" that you mentioned started every league team. How does that work then eh?

I'm only too happy to destroy any argument you want to put forward about City, United or Arsenal having a 'best 11' too. So yeah, we can carry this on if you like, but I'll warn you - I will win.

 

[Ryan]

I don't think Oscar always starts by the way. Towards the end of his season (before he got injured - and before the title was won I think), he was a sub for a number of games, and an unused sub in another. I think Ramires switched with Oscar, so I suppose it depends on whether Mourinho fancies more frenzied bite in midfield or more flair mixed with workrate.

Shush, you're making things difficult for 'Lucas'.

 

[Skullflower]

Nope. I'm saying he's a starter, but that they don't have a best 11.

Imagine any eleven players from city's squad. Now imagine the rest of the squad was made up of three year old girls. Would they still not have a best eleven? You seem pretty committed to the notion.

 

[Ryan]

Imagine any eleven players from city's squad. Now imagine the rest of the squad was made up of three year old girls. Would they still not have a best eleven? You seem pretty committed to the notion.

But the rest of the squad isn't made up of hypotheticals, it's made up of great players. Like every top team's squad is.

I tell you what Skully, you tell me their best 11 from this lot:

Hart
Kompany
Clichy
Kolarov
Mangala
Kompany
Sagna
Demichelis
Zabaleta
Fernando
Fernandinho
Toure
Navas
Sterling
Nasri
Silva
Delph
Navas
Aguero
Bony
Dzeko
Jovetic

And if you can do that, then tell me why that 'best 11' doesn't play every week.

 

[Skullflower]

There's basically a best eleven there. They don't play every week for really obvious reasons.

 

[Ryan]

There's basically a best eleven there. They don't play every week for really obvious reasons.

So you can't do it.

Like I've said for fucking years; there's no such thing as a best 11. Because form happens, injuries happen, formations happen, suspensions happen, tactics happen, opposition happens, and flexibility happens.

Here's the thing. People think there's a best 11, there's fucking PR everywhere about best 11''s, and they're football forum folklore - especially in the summer. They're the figment of imagination of your average football supporter. I bet you if we did a 'whats our best 11' thread, we'd have a mess of names and formations. With a whole bunch of fucking ///'s throw-in too. Because 'best 11's do not exist.

Let this be the end of it.

 

[Dreambeliever]

So you can't do it.

Like I've said for fucking years; there's no such thing as a best 11. Because form happens, injuries happen, formations happen, suspensions happen, tactics happen, opposition happens, and flexibility happens.

Here's the thing. People think there's a best 11, there's fucking PR everywhere about best 11''s, and they're football forum folklore - especially in the summer. They're the figment of imagination of your average football supporter. I bet you if we did a 'whats our best 11' thread, we'd have a mess of names and formations. With a whole bunch of fucking ///'s throw-in too. Because 'best 11's do not exist.

Let this be the end of it.

So if someone started off by saying something like ;

Assuming everyone is in decent form, we have no injuries or suspensions then our best 11 is..........

your head would explode a little less?

How about a list of must start when fit players who should play regardless of opposition or formation.

I'm talking about the Terry's, Rooney's, Gerrard's of the world?

Do you believe in that?

 

[Ryan]

Oh my sweet lord fucking God.

 

[Ryan]

*Deep breath*

Assuming everyone is in decent form, we have no injuries or suspensions then our best 11 is..........

- Firstly, it rarely happens.
- Secondly, as I've stated 500 fucking times, it would depend on the formation, tactics and opposition.
- Thirdly, it's still fucking hard to do isn't it? Let's assume every one of our players meets your criteria, would we agree on what the 'best 11' is? No we wouldn't, because as I've stated above we have about 8 players vying for 3 spots.
- And lastly, what would happen when one of the 'best 11' (assuming we agreed on them, which we can't, but anyway I'll play along) got injured, or suspended, or played shit? Do we then have a new 'best 11' for the following week? A 'weekly best 11' if you will?

How about a list of must start when fit players who should play regardless of opposition or formation.

I'm talking about the Terry's, Rooney's, Gerrard's of the world?

Of course there are players who are better than others and play just about every week. Terry, Rooney, De Gea, etc etc. But that still doesn't give you a best 11, which is the argument you're trying to make. It gives you, at most, a best 6, or 7.

Which is where Peterhague ended up the last time I had this fucking soul-destroying conversation.

Please Dreamy, for the love of fucking God, read what I've said in this thread. It's all explained there for you, you shouldn't have any other questions.

 

[juniormember]

So if someone started off by saying something like ;

Assuming everyone is in decent form, we have no injuries or suspensions then our best 11 is..........

your head would explode a little less?

How about a list of must start when fit players who should play regardless of opposition or formation.

I'm talking about the Terry's, Rooney's, Gerrard's of the world?

Do you believe in that?

How many Terry's, Rooney's and Gerrards of the world are in each squad?

 

[Frogfish]

So yeah, we can carry this on if you like, but I'll warn you - I will win.

Well hello Harvey !

 

[LeTallecWiz]

How many Terry's, Rooney's and Gerrards of the world are in each squad?

18 if they win the league

 

[StevieM]

I'm going with "preferred 11" from now on.

 

[Best Believe It]

Don't we still need a box to box midfielder?

 

[mark1975]

But the rest of the squad isn't made up of hypotheticals, it's made up of great players. Like every top team's squad is.

I tell you what Skully, you tell me their best 11 from this lot:

Hart
Kompany
Clichy
Kolarov
Mangala
Kompany
Sagna
Demichelis
Zabaleta
Fernando
Fernandinho
Toure
Navas
Sterling
Nasri
Silva
Delph
Navas
Aguero
Bony
Dzeko
Jovetic

And if you can do that, then tell me why that 'best 11' doesn't play every week.

I get your point, but there's no way in this World they would get away with having two Jesus Navas.

 

[peterhague]

But the rest of the squad isn't made up of hypotheticals, it's made up of great players. Like every top team's squad is.

I tell you what Skully, you tell me their best 11 from this lot:

Hart
Kompany
Clichy
Kolarov
Mangala
Kompany
Sagna
Demichelis
Zabaleta
Fernando
Fernandinho
Toure
Navas
Sterling
Nasri
Silva
Delph
Navas
Aguero
Bony
Dzeko
Jovetic

And if you can do that, then tell me why that 'best 11' doesn't play every week.

Hart

Zabaleta
Kompany
Mangala
Kolarov

Fernandinho
Toure
Silva
Sterling

Dzeko
Aguero


Of course it's not as accurate as Chelsea's, but by and large that's due to signings like Mangala, Kolarov, and Dzeko not working out quite as intended rather than a deliberate reliance on the larger squad. Two of those players are in defence, by the way! Surely even you wouldn't dispute that managers at least tend to have a 'best 4' in mind, and that rotation within that is really just a failure of that aspiration?

The larger point being that something like a best XI is indeed something to aspire to. Not to play every week - form, tactics, injuries have to be accounted for - but to be used as often as possible and certainly much more frequently than the next XI players in the squad. It matters as a concept because clubs will probably want those players starting about 70-80% of matches, with the 20-30% reserved for 'squad' players, and so when we drop £60m on Firmino and Benteke, of course it's sound to ask if they're both 'first XI' players, because to get value from them we need them on the pitch as much as possible.

It's like you take the idea too literally. Yes, most clubs probably don't have an instantly identifiable best XI, for one reason or another. But they sure as hell have a small 'A' squad of 14 or 15 who are rotated in and out every single game, and then a 'B' squad of pure back ups. So IMO if a signing doesn't fit into that 'A' squad I'd have to question any decision to spend big money on him. FYI our 'A' squad:

Mignolet

Clyne
Skrtel
Sakho
Moreno (new LB or Gomez)

Henderson
Milner (Can)
Coutinho

Firmino
Lallana (Sturridge, Ibe)
Benteke

 

[rurikbird]

The larger point being that something like a best XI is indeed something to aspire to. Not to play every week - form, tactics, injuries have to be accounted for - but to be used as often as possible and certainly much more frequently than the next XI players in the squad. It matters as a concept because clubs will probably want those players starting about 70-80% of matches, with the 20-30% reserved for 'squad' players, and so when we drop £60m on Firmino and Benteke, of course it's sound to ask if they're both 'first XI' players, because to get value from them we need them on the pitch as much as possible.

It's like you take the idea too literally. Yes, most clubs probably don't have an instantly identifiable best XI, for one reason or another. But they sure as hell have a small 'A' squad of 14 or 15 who are rotated in and out every single game, and then a 'B' squad of pure back ups. So IMO if a signing doesn't fit into that 'A' squad I'd have to question any decision to spend big money on him.

The more clear and specific football concept a club has, the more tight-knit group of players it will rely on to fulfill this concept. That's why a team like Barca has a clear best 11 and Mourinho's Chelsea almost does as well. And why a team with a fuzzy football concept like Man City or a team in transition like Man United (or us, at the moment) doesn't.

 

[mark1975]

It's not unreasonable to post a favourite XI, or an XI that should start a certain game, etc. Of course it's not, it's all a bit precious really to take the whole idea of it being a squad game to quash any ideas of having a core group of players who will start more often than not.

As said, you normally have a group of around 15 players who will cover the majority of matches across a season, if you're playing a squad game of 20 odd players across the course of a Premiership season, then you're generally fucked.

Our main group of players in 2013/2014 were:

Mignolet

Johnson
Skrtel
Agger (then Sakho)
Flanagan

Gerrard (Lucas)
Coutinho (Allen)
Henderson

Suarez
Sturridge
Sterling

The only players beyond that who played a smaller number of games were Toure, Enrique, Cissokho, Moses & Ibe. None of them were big contributors except for Toure with 20 appearances, none of the rest will live in anyone's memory of being major players towards nearly winning the title.

 

[mark1975]

It's also pointless posting a City squad including last seasons players and all their new players, without factoring that alot of players are heading for the exit doors. They had a big squad last year but you could still come up with a core 15 who played more than most.

 

[Ryan]

Ah fantastic, we've found a new variation on the forward slash. The bracket.

Hell hath no fury like a keyboard warrior trying to shoehorn in a best 11.

 

[mark1975]

Crossing the ball is defunct, etc. There's actually always a point in there that would be acknowledged head on, if it weren't expressed in such an exaggerated and pretentious way.

 

[peterhague]

Ah fantastic, we've found a new variation on the forward slash. The bracket.

Hell hath no fury like a keyboard warrior trying to shoehorn in a best 11.

That's a bit rich. You're devoted to this argument like a first born child.

 

[iseered]

How many Terry's, Rooney's and Gerrards of the world are in each squad?

 

[mark1975]

Tbf, it's not like we need brackets to marginise Joe Allen.

 

[Hansern]

Except Mourinho started the season with Schurrle in his 'best 11', dropped Cahill for 2 months so he could play Zouma in that 'best 11', and Ramires featured in two thirds of the league games, starting a dozen in the 'best 11' cos Mourinho preferred him away from home in the big games, and so on.

And then there were the prolonged injuries and/or suspensions to Costa (who missed 15 league games by the way), Oscar, Willian and Azpilicueta.

Only 2 of the "best 11" that you mentioned started every league team. How does that work then eh?

I'm only too happy to destroy any argument you want to put forward about City, United or Arsenal having a 'best 11' too. So yeah, we can carry this on if you like, but I'll warn you - I will win.

I agree about the best eleven but I think every manager has a spine of players in his side that will play if fit and not suspended etc.
In Mourinhos case though it is nearly a best eleven actually.
Mourinho has about 7-8 players that will always play. The other 3-4 depends on injuries, tactics, who they play, home/away etc

In the league:
Courtois (31 starts), Ivanovic (38 starts), Terry (38 starts), Cahill (33 starts), Azipilicueta (29 starts), Matic (35 starts), Fabregas (33 starts), Hazard (38 starts)

Add to that you have Costa (24 starts), Willian (28 starts) and Oscar (27 starts)

So basically, Mourinho does have at least 8 players that will always play. You could say maybe 9 as Costa will start if fit and available.
And while the other starting places might get a bit more rotation, Willian and Oscar will start 73% of the games.

 

[keniget]

All fair questions in theory, but then doesn't the same happen at every one of our rivals? Wasn't this our problem last year when we had to stick Sterling up front? - We had zero options to choose from.

So, let's assume you play with 5 attacking players in your side, inclusive of mid/attacking mids/striker, right? And let's look at our rivals options:

Arsenal: Giroud, Walcott, Cazorla, Ozil, Welbeck, Ramsey, Oxlade Chamberlain, Rosicky, Sanchez. That's 9, every one of them with legitimate rights to get into the 4. I haven't even counted Rosicky, Wilshere (mid), and their other little attacking mids.

Chelsea: Let's assume Costa starts when fit. That leaves 3 spots behind him cos Mourinho never plays with more than 4 attacking players. Who out of Falcao, Hazard, Willian, Oscar, Remy, Fabregas, and Cuadrado play in the 3? Not to mention Loftus-Cheek and Salah, the former of which Mourinho is promising games.

City: Let's assume Aguero starts. That's a fucking certainty. And Silva will play, we know that. So you've max 3 other spots and you know Yaya Toure is taking one of them. Down to 2 now. And he's got Nasri, Sterling, Navas, Dzeko, Bony, Jovetic, and Delph. 7 into 2 doesn't go.

Rooney's gonna start up front at United, supported by whom in the 3 attacking mid spots? Herrera, Mata, Depay, Young, Fellaini, and as Van Gaal claims there's another one coming to add to that list once Di Maria goes.

Anyway, you get my point. You need to oversubscribe in this area, for these reasons:
- Cunts get injured and suspended.
- Shit doesn't work out like you'd planned. Did anyone think Van Persie would sit on the pine while James Wilson plays?
- Signings don't work. Falcao.
- Form.
- Formations. Costa can only play in a one up top, Dzeko can only cut it in a 4-4-2. Different folks for different strokes.

So assuming we play 4-3-3, which pre-seaosn tells us we will, that gives you 4 attacking spots on the side, cos Hendo, Milner and maybe Lucas are playing every week. Definitely Hendo and Milner anyway, and we may invert and go 2 deep and 1 advanced in the midfield 3 rather than Lucas on his own.

So that gives you 4 spots, one of which you'd fucking imagine barring injury is Coutinho's right? All of a sudden you're down to 3 spots and you've got Benteke, Firmino, Lallana, Ibe, Ings, Markovic, Origi, and then hey fucking presto Daniel Sturridge gets fit outta fucking nowhere. 8 into 3. And are you gonna be the guy who tells Sturridge he's not playing? Pfft. 7 into 2.

So I've well and truly shoe-horned my point home.

Here's my conclusion:

- You need options. Sheringham and Solksjaer off the bench to win you a champions league. Bang.
- You need outright sheer quality. Doesn't matter what fucking competition for places there is for the likes of Aguero does there? He'll be fucking starting regardless cos he doesn't give a fuck who else there is. This is where we come up short.
- First 11's are well and truly fucking pointless. Have we established that yet?
- I do not for the life of me see what rodgers is gonna do with Sturridge and Benteke fit. I can't even work it out in theory, so fuck knows how Rodgers see's this panning out in reality. Hope is not a strategy Brendan.

It might just be me or the fact that it's the morning or something but it feels like you're more interested in revisiting your "no such thing as a first eleven" argument (which has become truly absurd) than really addressing my post. It's only the last paragraph that feels relevant.

First things first. Everyone knows it's a squad game these days, what exactly are you trying to prove? It's obvious that options are needed. It's obvious that you can't play with a small set of players all season particularly when you're in Europe. You're taking things far too literally and at times ignoring glaring points / arguments in order to keep up yours. Maybe we need to agree on some new terminology, like "core players" or if you want to borrow from Mourinho, "untouchables". Every team has them and that's just the end of it, it's not a debate.

Now onto other things. The likes of Chelsea and City are on a different planet to us. It's pointless making comparisons. They can buy a load of (generally established) players, have them rot in the stands waiting for the odd game here and there and not really care. It's much easier for them to play the squad game because those players are ready (or more ready than younger rawer players) to come in and perform.

We have chopped and changed systems over the last few years which makes it a moving target for our squad and anyone coming into it. Not easy to then carry on chopping and changing players during the season. And we are (or should be) in the business of maximizing the value / potential of our assets. Now when you buy too many raw players that need time and developing there is huge risk. Perhaps I didn't make it clear enough but that is one of the main questions I have - how do we ensure ROI (which we really do need) here?

It's all well and good saying X many players can fit into Y slots over the course of the season. Anyone can do that. But how? How does it work in terms of the system? Is it the right place for the player to play (e.g. Markovic on the wing)? Will it ensure their development? Will it ensure the teams development as a group? And so forth.

You opened that argument up yourself at the very end by restating the Benteke + Sturridge question that I had.

 

[FoxForceFive]

Some excellent angling skills from skully in here, caught himself a whopper.

Unsure whether dreamy joined in or ended up being caught on the line himself.

 

[Wiberg]

The much too long discussion about best XI is a testament to the fact that we need the season to start. Loads of drivel

Sturridge does run the channel. Watch his goals. Remember the game vs arsenal at home where coutinho set him up twice? He is fast and he runs the channels.

Why did we get Benteke? What else was out there that was even close? Only Aguero, Persie, Suarez has a better goal rate in the PL since 12.

Let's not complicate matters too much just because we at bored waiting for the season to start.

 

[Dirkus_Circus]

Ings: Why I'm a good fit for LFC attack

Danny Ings believes his movement can help Liverpool's attacking midfielders do even more damage next season.

The 23-year-old has already shown glimpses of his old-school approach to centre-forward play during the Reds' pre-season trips to Thailand, Australia and Malaysia.

His first goal for the club since a summer move from Burnley, which came against Adelaide United, was the product of a dart in behind the back four and a cool finish when one on one with the goalkeeper.

And it is that sort of move which Ings believes can benefit those who line up behind him in Brendan Rodgers' team.

"After my knee injury [in 2012] I sort of devoted my whole time to working on my speed, my movement, and my creativity," he told Robbie Fowler in an exclusive interview now available on LFCTV GO.

"What I've found was really effective, even at Championship level, was making runs constantly in behind.
"As soon as a defender switches off that run in behind is so effective.

"As long as there's someone stretching the pitch and you've got your creative players behind you in that space - and you've got players at this football club to feed those runs - you can be an effective team.

"It's certainly something I'm looking forward to."

Ings also insisted there is still a place for a player like him in the modern game even if he is, as Fowler suggested, part of 'a dying breed'.
"I think with the way the game is going, it's full of creative players now, players who want to be on the ball all the time," he added.

"[But] I really do think, even if I don't touch the ball as much as those guys if I'm still stretching the game it's still as effective.

"It can all get too crunched and if you don't create space for those players in behind you then it's hard to create opportunities.
"I'll always work on my game and stretching in behind."

 

[Wiberg]

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/sport/fo...-Anfield-Kop-Update-News-Gossip-Rumour-Latest

Daniel Sturridge's long injury lay-off last season meant the Reds lacked anyone who was willing to stretch opposition defences, which impacted on the space the more creative players had to work in