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should the owners be used an excuse for underachievement?

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[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=41882.msg1174408#msg1174408 date=1284493571]
"i'd be happy enough to finish 7th if we played fucking majestic football."


???
[/quote]

What?

We aren't going to well, so i'd rather we play proper football whilst we're at it.
 
Thats not what i meant. If we were going to finish 7th either way, we might as well treat the fans.
 
I couldn't agree less with your perverse unrealistic thinking either Rosco, you talk out your arse regularly especially on this topic. The unwritten logic to your arguments is what exactly? 100% success with all transfers whilst paying players less than our competitors and ignoring the debts the owners placed upon us or the fact that we've made net transfer profits for two years despite obviously lacking the quality to win... Brilliant theory that .... Absolute fucking tosh.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=41882.msg1174260#msg1174260 date=1284474915]
I don't think lack of funds is a pass at all. I have no expectations of the league, but a top 4 finish? c'mon, that's well within our grasp. we got rid of the last manager because he didn't deliver that so the new manager should have similar targets.
[/quote]

I think that is a huge over simplification to be honest Neil

regards
 
[quote author=Molbystwin link=topic=41882.msg1174575#msg1174575 date=1284535452]
I couldn't agree less with your perverse unrealistic thinking either Rosco, you talk out your arse regularly especially on this topic. The unwritten logic to your arguments is what exactly? 100% success with all transfers whilst paying players less than our competitors and ignoring the debts the owners placed upon us or the fact that we've made net transfer profits for two years despite obviously lacking the quality to win... Brilliant theory that .... Absolute fucking tosh.
[/quote]

What is painfully clear is that you blame 100% of the ills of the club on the owners.

Whilst the owners have caused real problems in placing us in financial ruin, the problems on the pitch are largely not due to the lack of money, but rather to the horrible use of it.

I'm surprised you dont think the Yanks killed JFK.


Don't get me wrong, I hate the bastards and pray they get kicked out and he debt on the club be settled somehow..but to casually dismiss the problems as 'lack of money fro transfers' is borderline lunacy.
 
[quote author=Farkmaster link=topic=41882.msg1174512#msg1174512 date=1284500734]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=41882.msg1174507#msg1174507 date=1284500401]
[quote author=Molbystwin link=topic=41882.msg1174505#msg1174505 date=1284500077]
He had little or no dosh on top of players sales did he... If we had sold Torres and spent fifty million does that count as investment? And it clearly counts if you do it right. I also disagree that Rafa just bought shite and wasted money, rarely was he given big cash to spend and when he did have the chance to buy big players he bought some great ones...Aquilani was a fucking disaster but I'm convinced that Rafa thought a striker was on the way in as well and that would possibly have helped out when Torres was fucked. Even the season we bought Torres we sold a good player in Garcia... I don't know i just always have the feeling that money was always in too short a supply to really compete for us, I'm more forgiving than most because I feel we probably wouldn't gamble on the Josemis of this world if we had the money needed for the Alves or the Silvas etc ... It is academic now, it is unreasonable to expect a storming league performance from the team we have because there are a number of teams better equipped and that will remain the situation until we invest in the team or get really fucking lucky. You cannot stand still in this league and financially that what we've been trying to do for a good while.
[/quote]

Molby do you actually believe any of this complete and utter fucking rubbish you're writing ?


[/quote]

It's a fact that Rafa, having brought us really close, due to market forces and the failed gambles of our owners, was given nothing, or very close to it, for two years.

Rafa's choices under those conditions weren't smart, nor were they the previous window, in fact they were disastrous, but the implications were worsened by the fact that there was no room for any failure.

Those two factors are obvious, trying to minimize either one is pretty stupid. The more significant factor, as we'll continue to see, is our parlous financial situation.

[/quote]

Spot on Farky.
 
Depends what is meant by underachievement?

If it's winning the League then it's valid to use owners as an excuse as resources are directly related to success.

If it's competing with Europe's elite then we've previously qualified for a CL spot with the current owners so they can't be used as an excuse.

Ultimately it's the Manager and Players who have to deliver irrespective of ownership.
 
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=41882.msg1174591#msg1174591 date=1284539971]
Depends what is meant by underachievement?

If it's winning the League then it's valid to use owners as an excuse as resources are directly related to success.

If it's competing with Europe's elite then we've previously qualified for a CL spot with the current owners so they can't be used as an excuse.

Ultimately it's the Manager and Players who have to deliver irrespective of ownership.
[/quote]

And ultimately that is unrealistic for us at the moment and probably has been unrealistic for large portions of the last twenty years. As an excuse? Not really, its deeper than that.
 
Obviously everyone knows the situation with our owners and finance and it plays a significant role in our curremt position. However, I don't need the manager to come out after every bad result or disappointment and tell me it's cos of the ownership issue. Rafa done it and now Roy's doing it too after five minutes of being here. Just get on with your job, do your best, and don't walk around stating the obvious, like it's gonna be a get our clause for everything that goes wrong.
 
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=41882.msg1174610#msg1174610 date=1284544685]
Obviously everyone knows the situation with our owners and finance and it plays a significant role in our curremt position. However, I don't need the manager to come out after every bad result or disappointment and tell me it's cos of the ownership issue. Rafa done it and now Roy's doing it too after five minutes of being here. Just get on with your job, do your best, and don't walk around stating the obvious, like it's gonna be a get our clause for everything that goes wrong.
[/quote]

I completely agree with this, there is no need for Roy to be explaining just yet nor indeed for Pepe to say anything just yet.

But then again judging by the responses to Sunday in the other thread...
 
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=41882.msg1174610#msg1174610 date=1284544685]
Obviously everyone knows the situation with our owners and finance and it plays a significant role in our curremt position. However, I don't need the manager to come out after every bad result or disappointment and tell me it's cos of the ownership issue. Rafa done it and now Roy's doing it too after five minutes of being here. Just get on with your job, do your best, and don't walk around stating the obvious, like it's gonna be a get our clause for everything that goes wrong.
[/quote]

I agree that it shouldn't be used as an excuse for when the team underperforms in games we are expected to win. However, Do you want a quiet 'Yes Man' who will stand by and let the owner pillage the club and provide zero transfers funds? Benitez was frustrating at times with his constant battle with the owners but at least he was doing something to expose the people who are bleeding us dry.

I don't want to sound like a RAWKITE or anything here but owners need to go and if the previous manager, current manager and star players want to state the obvious then let them.
 
I think it is fairly obvious that with more money we would have most probably done a bit better, but it also seems obvious to me that we were badly prepared when the money started to dry up, due to previous wastefulness when it was more readily available, and arguably we have not been getting the best out of the players and resources we still have.

Some of the results against the lesser teams last season were fucking appalling. Investment or no investment we should have had a squad to beat those kind of teams.
We lost to Portsmouth, Wigan, Fulham, Sunderland. They are not exactly loaded are they? Portsmouth weren't even paying their players!

I could understand if we were squeezed out of the top 4 because others had come along with cash and we were missing out narrowly to them but that was not the case. Noone stormed ahead of us last season, we had opportunities but we didn't even really challenge. That was not just down to lack of investment
 
Yeah I agree with the notion that we weren't prepared when the money ran out. Poor transfer windows and players (Keane) not being replaced left us short . Who takes the majority of the blame here? Rafa for signing him and not knowing what to do with him or the owners, for not allowing us re use the money earned from his transfer back to Spurs?

It is no excuse when we lose to the likes of Pompey, Stoke et however.
 
Pepe had it spot on.

Roy just sounded depressing.

It is important that expectations fall in line with circumstances, so I can't blame Hodgson. I didn't afford such patience with Benitez because he had the chance to build a decent squad.
 
I don't think we'd be having such a debate about the fundamentals of what's wrong if Roy would have just said on Sunday 'yeah, that was a bit crap and we need to do a lot of work' instead of 'I didn't expect much'.
 
say brum had put away some of their numerous chances they had against us, how on this green earth are the owners an excuse for that? look at brum's squad compared to ours.
 
[quote author=ILD link=topic=41882.msg1174621#msg1174621 date=1284545737]
Yeah I agree with the notion that we weren't prepared when the money ran out. Poor transfer windows and players (Keane) not being replaced left us short . Who takes the majority of the blame here? Rafa for signing him and not knowing what to do with him or the owners, for not allowing us re use the money earned from his transfer back to Spurs?

It is no excuse when we lose to the likes of Pompey, Stoke et however.
[/quote]

Well when are we saying the money seriously started to run out?

In the new owners' first season we spent quite a bit didn't we? Torres, Babel, Mascherano, Benayoun, Lucas all came in on pretty decent fees.

It was after that when things started to slide, and also when we stopped winning trophies or getting to finals, so we would have been making less money from that too. In the previous three seasons we won the CL, FA Cup and got to the CL final. All money making activities.

In the three summers after that we have been spending less but you could argue that if we had spent more wisely when we could then that belt tightening wouldn't have had so much of an effect would it?

As things stood we were faced with a board possibly saying 'there is no money left' and a manager having to do his best with a squad that included expensive failures such as Dossena, Lucas, Keane, Riera, Babel and Aquilani. Previously he was becoming accustomed to being able to sell off these mistakes each summer and bringing in new ones - which probably would have continued to be honest.
 
Can we try to remember that Rafa spent £40million last summer, so I didn't need to hear him talking about how little he had.

ILD, it really doesn't matter if he's a 'yes man' or not at this point, *everyone* knows the situation with the club. If and when there's something new to say about the club, I'd respect Roy for saying it. But there isn't, he's saying it for the sake of saying it, tt almost feels like he's pardoying Rafa sometimes.

He says it to take pressure off himself; and excuse for mediocracy. Which I hate, he's only just come in, and it's like he's already resigned for us finishing 7th, and is trying to convince us that's all we should expect.
 
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=41882.msg1174589#msg1174589 date=1284539778]
[quote author=Molbystwin link=topic=41882.msg1174575#msg1174575 date=1284535452]
I couldn't agree less with your perverse unrealistic thinking either Rosco, you talk out your arse regularly especially on this topic. The unwritten logic to your arguments is what exactly? 100% success with all transfers whilst paying players less than our competitors and ignoring the debts the owners placed upon us or the fact that we've made net transfer profits for two years despite obviously lacking the quality to win... Brilliant theory that .... Absolute fucking tosh.
[/quote]

What is painfully clear is that you blame 100% of the ills of the club on the owners.

Whilst the owners have caused real problems in placing us in financial ruin, the problems on the pitch are largely not due to the lack of money, but rather to the horrible use of it.

I'm surprised you dont think the Yanks killed JFK.


Don't get me wrong, I hate the bastards and pray they get kicked out and he debt on the club be settled somehow..but to casually dismiss the problems as 'lack of money fro transfers' is borderline lunacy.
[/quote]

I certainly do not 100% blame the Yanks and I doubt that they had anything to do with the assaination of JFK ( probably too young for that) but I do challenge this "horrible use of money rather than the lack of it" as it is highly selective. Some of the money Rafa used was very very well used IMO. He also managed to convert us into one of the best teams in Europe during his most of his tenure and at times we played some great stuff.

Rafa bought in some shit players, FACT, so has every other manager in the world im sure of it. The unlucky part was he happened to buy in shite just at the point when the owners turned out to be lying bankrupt cunts not really bothered about improving the team.

Friction between Rafa and the owners was apparent the day after we lost to Milan in the CL when he stated there and then that he wanted more investment more quickly. He regularly talked of inertia regarding transfers and having to provide list of second and third choice cheaper alternatives to what he actually wanted... those players that the board decided we could afford usually came from those alternatives sadly.... The same players Rafa often got slated for... maybe they were cheaper for a reason eh?

OK he could have come out and asked for Messi etc but ...

And it is definitely true we did have a high net spend compared to all of our competitiors except for Chelsea. But our gross spend was never enough. The Chelsea team now was basically assembled four or five years ago on the a couple of seasons of enormous net spend and HUMUNGOUS gross spend. Rafa could and was given cash to spend but never like Chelsea were or indeed like City are now. The ability to get your transfers wrong and still improve the team because you had sufficient moneys to do so. Thats where the owners fucked up, they tried to do it on the cheap and it just aint that easy, IMO Rafa is and was a top manager and knew what he was doing but he was let down by the board especially at the start of his last season in charge when it became apparent what a bunch of shysters they were, sadly for the new manager they have continued to be so this summer....

A few weeks back we were sitting here awaiting the possible arrival of Carlton Cole....

The tragic punchline is he never fucking arrived.

Are the owners an excuse for finishing badly? I really couldnt give a fuck now the damage is already done... they should go and go soon.

Whether you or Rosco thinks this is bullshit or not truly doesnt bother me, we havent won it under GnH and never will. Good enough reason to want rid of the cunts.
 
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=41882.msg1174622#msg1174622 date=1284545793]
Pepe had it spot on.

Roy just sounded depressing.

It is important that expectations fall in line with circumstances, so I can't blame Hodgson. I didn't afford such patience with Benitez because he had the chance to build a decent squad.
[/quote]

I agree with the first two sentences.

I know we have to be realistic, but he's making me suicidal
 
The owners are NOT the ones making tactical blunders or choosing the team to play.

What they are responsible for is their failure to invest in quality to strengthen the first team.
 
[quote author=RolandG link=topic=41882.msg1174798#msg1174798 date=1284570724]
The owners are NOT the ones making tactical blunders or choosing the team to play.

[/quote]

Ah, right.
 
Liverpool manager Roy Hodgson has confirmed he is set to rotate his squad for Thursday night's Europa League clash with Steaua Bucharest.

Hodgson, 63, is set to commit a juggling act with his players as he keeps one eye on Sunday's meeting with Manchester United and looks to get their Europa League off to a winning start. Star duo Steven Gerrard and Fernando Torres could be rested, while Fabio Aurelio and Dirk Kuyt are definitely out with injury.

Speaking at a press conference, the ex-Fulham supremo confirmed he planned to hand run outs to his fringe players.

"I shall make changes to the team for the game against Steaua. There's no question of that - it's something I've planned all along," Hodgson was quoted as saying by the club's official website.

"I don't think there is any point of having a squad of 25 players, many of whom are internationals, and then just trying to play the same 11 every game.

"It's going to be important to keep everybody on board and it's also important for me to get to know players better. I learn a lot from games and I learn a lot about the players because I've not had an awful lot of time working with some of them who were at the World Cup.

"I shall be using these games in the Europa League and the Carling Cup to try and get a better knowledge of the players to make certain as time goes on that I have no doubts about what our best 11 is."

He added: "We've still got to wait for Dirk Kuyt and Fabio Aurelio, but luckily so far we're not picking up injuries, so I've got quite a big squad to choose from," the boss added.

"It's up to me to try and choose a team tomorrow that will firstly win the game and secondly possibly give some of the players that are going to be needed to play against Manchester United a well-deserved break.

"If I do change the team in some ways tomorrow, I want the players to go out there and perform against top-class opposition. It's no good me watching them play against poor opposition because that might fool me into think they're better than they are."

Hodgson also took time out to defend under fire striker Fernando Torres. The Spaniard put in an under-par performance in the 0-0 draw with Birmingham City, but his coach moved to ease any fears about his state of mind.

"I'm afraid criticism is something he will have to learn to live with," he stated.

"We bear strong expectations at this club and everyone is interested in us. We fill newspapers and fill air time. Everything that happens at the club is put under a microscope and that includes player performances.

"Fernando Torres has no problems with that. He's an excellent player and is very much committed and focused on this season. It's very wrong for people to read into his state of mind from watching 90 minutes of football.

"I think you'd have to be some wonder psychologist to do that.

"I can't watch a player and tell you what state of mind he is in."
 
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=41882.msg1174651#msg1174651 date=1284548369]
Can we try to remember that Rafa spent £40million last summer, so I didn't need to hear him talking about how little he had.

ILD, it really doesn't matter if he's a 'yes man' or not at this point, *everyone* knows the situation with the club. If and when there's something new to say about the club, I'd respect Roy for saying it. But there isn't, he's saying it for the sake of saying it, tt almost feels like he's pardoying Rafa sometimes.

He says it to take pressure off himself; and excuse for mediocracy. Which I hate, he's only just come in, and it's like he's already resigned for us finishing 7th, and is trying to convince us that's all we should expect.
[/quote]

This £40million spent was from Xabi and Arbeloa, the money spent was just replacement, not investment nor improvement.
 
The reason we don't spend as much as Chelsea & City is because of their owners versus ours.

The fact that we came 7th last year is fuck all to do with our owners.
 
[quote author=erick link=topic=41882.msg1174954#msg1174954 date=1284607861]
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=41882.msg1174651#msg1174651 date=1284548369]
Can we try to remember that Rafa spent £40million last summer, so I didn't need to hear him talking about how little he had.

ILD, it really doesn't matter if he's a 'yes man' or not at this point, *everyone* knows the situation with the club. If and when there's something new to say about the club, I'd respect Roy for saying it. But there isn't, he's saying it for the sake of saying it, tt almost feels like he's pardoying Rafa sometimes.

He says it to take pressure off himself; and excuse for mediocracy. Which I hate, he's only just come in, and it's like he's already resigned for us finishing 7th, and is trying to convince us that's all we should expect.
[/quote]

This £40million spent was from Xabi and Arbeloa, the money spent was just replacement, not investment nor improvement.

[/quote]

The 'replacements' didnt go so well.
 
[quote author=localny link=topic=41882.msg1174925#msg1174925 date=1284590625]
Liverpool manager Roy Hodgson has confirmed he is set to rotate his squad for Thursday night's Europa League clash with Steaua Bucharest.

Hodgson, 63, is set to commit a juggling act with his players as he keeps one eye on Sunday's meeting with Manchester United and looks to get their Europa League off to a winning start. Star duo Steven Gerrard and Fernando Torres could be rested, while Fabio Aurelio and Dirk Kuyt are definitely out with injury.

Speaking at a press conference, the ex-Fulham supremo confirmed he planned to hand run outs to his fringe players.

"I shall make changes to the team for the game against Steaua. There's no question of that - it's something I've planned all along," Hodgson was quoted as saying by the club's official website.

"I don't think there is any point of having a squad of 25 players, many of whom are internationals, and then just trying to play the same 11 every game.

"It's going to be important to keep everybody on board and it's also important for me to get to know players better. I learn a lot from games and I learn a lot about the players because I've not had an awful lot of time working with some of them who were at the World Cup.

"I shall be using these games in the Europa League and the Carling Cup to try and get a better knowledge of the players to make certain as time goes on that I have no doubts about what our best 11 is."

He added: "We've still got to wait for Dirk Kuyt and Fabio Aurelio, but luckily so far we're not picking up injuries, so I've got quite a big squad to choose from," the boss added.

"It's up to me to try and choose a team tomorrow that will firstly win the game and secondly possibly give some of the players that are going to be needed to play against Manchester United a well-deserved break.

"If I do change the team in some ways tomorrow, I want the players to go out there and perform against top-class opposition. It's no good me watching them play against poor opposition because that might fool me into think they're better than they are."

Hodgson also took time out to defend under fire striker Fernando Torres. The Spaniard put in an under-par performance in the 0-0 draw with Birmingham City, but his coach moved to ease any fears about his state of mind.

"I'm afraid criticism is something he will have to learn to live with," he stated.

"We bear strong expectations at this club and everyone is interested in us. We fill newspapers and fill air time. Everything that happens at the club is put under a microscope and that includes player performances.

"Fernando Torres has no problems with that. He's an excellent player and is very much committed and focused on this season. It's very wrong for people to read into his state of mind from watching 90 minutes of football.

"I think you'd have to be some wonder psychologist to do that.

"I can't watch a player and tell you what state of mind he is in."

[/quote]

Well if this is senility, keep it coming.


As to the original question.
We won't know if the owners are being used as an excuse for underachievement until the end of the season , when we will have to look at what we have, or have not, achieved, and if it is the latter then see if they are used as an excuse, and if it is it would not be unreasonable.

What the owners , and therefore our situation, is being used for currently is to bring a sense of reality to matters.
We were left with a squad with big holes in it, despite it's size. Some of that was due to lack of funds over the last couple of seasons and some of it due to poor signings
Chelsea, Arsenal and United, despite them not spending fortunes, still have stronger squads. (Although United somehow do look weaker)
City have spent like twats. Spurs still remain a threat. We have not had the requisite funds to strengthen sufficiently to catch up and say that we are in with a realistic shout of a top four place, although of course it could happen.

regards
 
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