simply put, does the lack of investment give the manager a 'pass' with regards to a top 4 finish?
should the owners be used an excuse for underachievement?
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It does if he wants to. It shouldn't though, and i'd be happy enough to finish 7th if we played fucking majestic football.
S
Squiggles
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When the money got tight, Benitez failed to keep the squad of decent enough quality to finish in the top four. Past mistakes came back to haunt him.
Right now, nobody is really expecting a top four finish this season, because Spurs and City both have stronger squads than we do, and have managers who have won trophies.
I expect us to put up a good fight for the CL, though. It's far from impossible.
Right now, nobody is really expecting a top four finish this season, because Spurs and City both have stronger squads than we do, and have managers who have won trophies.
I expect us to put up a good fight for the CL, though. It's far from impossible.
S
Squiggles
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They certainly did last season. It's too early to really judge our squad this year, but I'm not convinced we've improved enough to get ahead of them.
A lot of it depends on Torres really.
A lot of it depends on Torres really.
The situation we're in is largely shaped by greedy owners who've placed us in financial ruin compounded by a manager who used much of the money very badly and employed poor tactics and team selections.
NOt having a go at anyone, just want to show that we've been hit by a footballing equivalent of a perfect storm and it will take time to get out of it.
Hodgson is wholly to blame for errors he makes though; like tactics and team selections which he's unfortunately gotten wrong over a few games. Hopefully he corrects them.
Still, I'm hopeful by his transfer record so far though..Meireles and Konchesky look good, unfortunately Poulsen doesnt.
Time will tell.
NOt having a go at anyone, just want to show that we've been hit by a footballing equivalent of a perfect storm and it will take time to get out of it.
Hodgson is wholly to blame for errors he makes though; like tactics and team selections which he's unfortunately gotten wrong over a few games. Hopefully he corrects them.
Still, I'm hopeful by his transfer record so far though..Meireles and Konchesky look good, unfortunately Poulsen doesnt.
Time will tell.
The owners have set different terms in some ways for what would be considered an achievement. There's still room to underachieve, and it isn't pretty.
The lack of investment has only been a recent thing, so no the owners are not solely to blame. I think we have made some massive mistakes in the transfer market 18mil for a right back and the same amount on a crocked midfielder did not help.
I don't think lack of funds is a pass at all. I have no expectations of the league, but a top 4 finish? c'mon, that's well within our grasp. we got rid of the last manager because he didn't deliver that so the new manager should have similar targets.
I think we've got enough talent in this team to qualify, the issue is that we're going through a crisis of confidence. In that scenario, it's easy to think Citeh and Spurs are better positioned.
We're better than Spurs, but they have the momentum. Citeh, I still believe will implode. Mancini is not a good enough manager.
But we don't have upward momentum - and we don't have a manager that will solve the confidence problem. If anything this confidence problem will get worse, unless he starts to become the "steady hand" everyone was barking on about back in July.
The talent is there, but the toxic negativity is too. Results on the pitch, would do a lot to help us Roy.
We're better than Spurs, but they have the momentum. Citeh, I still believe will implode. Mancini is not a good enough manager.
But we don't have upward momentum - and we don't have a manager that will solve the confidence problem. If anything this confidence problem will get worse, unless he starts to become the "steady hand" everyone was barking on about back in July.
The talent is there, but the toxic negativity is too. Results on the pitch, would do a lot to help us Roy.
Is this Squad better than the Squad that lost 4th by 7 points? (5 if you dismiss the beachball incident which shouldn't have been allowed), damn right it is!
Is this manager capable of getting them?
Yeah possibly, as long as he remembers to play for a win and not a draw, we're Liverpool not Fulham!
I think we can do good this season, we will all know if Roys got what it takes by the Jan transfer window.
Is this manager capable of getting them?
Yeah possibly, as long as he remembers to play for a win and not a draw, we're Liverpool not Fulham!
I think we can do good this season, we will all know if Roys got what it takes by the Jan transfer window.
the best keeper in the league
england first choice right back
carra and agger/skertel centre back pairing that finished 2nd 2 seasons ago
a solid left back and strong back up in aurelio and kelly
a central midfield partnership of steven gerrard and a proven portugese international
wide/attacking players of established international pedigree in kuyt, maxi and jova
a top class no10 player in joe cole with patches as understudy
one of the worlds best strikers in torres with babel and n'gog as understudies.
what would i have different - a better understudy or 2nd striker for when we change formation or chasing a game in the style of litmanen and a left sided winger.
underachievement is down to team selection, tactics and player motivation.
england first choice right back
carra and agger/skertel centre back pairing that finished 2nd 2 seasons ago
a solid left back and strong back up in aurelio and kelly
a central midfield partnership of steven gerrard and a proven portugese international
wide/attacking players of established international pedigree in kuyt, maxi and jova
a top class no10 player in joe cole with patches as understudy
one of the worlds best strikers in torres with babel and n'gog as understudies.
what would i have different - a better understudy or 2nd striker for when we change formation or chasing a game in the style of litmanen and a left sided winger.
underachievement is down to team selection, tactics and player motivation.
You're right in that Hodgson has to improve on his tactics and selections, and especially motivation (ie no more of this 'happy with a point' bullshit)
But some of your comments about the squad are ridiculous.
Reina looks good, but has been patchy; Johnson isnt playing well.
Kelly is unproven,Aurelio is broken and Kopnchesky has played ONE game (thankfully looking decent)
Gerrard aside, Meireles is not fully fit and has to bed in into a new league (thankfully also looking de3cent)
We've replaced a world-class DM with Christian.Poulsen.
Cole is promising, but again has played too few games to really show what he can do.
Babel and Ngog are not good back-up for Torres, who is looking increasingly fucked off at being an island in the middle of nowhere.
I described that team as 'rubbish'; and that was a bit harsh.
But we have REAL problems, and scoffing at it like you have is bonkers.
But some of your comments about the squad are ridiculous.
Reina looks good, but has been patchy; Johnson isnt playing well.
Kelly is unproven,Aurelio is broken and Kopnchesky has played ONE game (thankfully looking decent)
Gerrard aside, Meireles is not fully fit and has to bed in into a new league (thankfully also looking de3cent)
We've replaced a world-class DM with Christian.Poulsen.
Cole is promising, but again has played too few games to really show what he can do.
Babel and Ngog are not good back-up for Torres, who is looking increasingly fucked off at being an island in the middle of nowhere.
I described that team as 'rubbish'; and that was a bit harsh.
But we have REAL problems, and scoffing at it like you have is bonkers.
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=41882.msg1174292#msg1174292 date=1284479900]
You're right in that Hodgson has to improve on his tactics and selections, and especially motivation (ie no more of this 'happy with a point' bullshit)
But some of your comments about the squad are ridiculous.
Reina looks good, but has been patchy; Johnson isnt playing well.
Kelly is unproven,Aurelio is broken and Kopnchesky has played ONE game (thankfully looking decent)
Gerrard aside, Meireles is not fully fit and has to bed in into a new league (thankfully also looking de3cent)
We've replaced a world-class DM with Christian.Poulsen.
Cole is promising, but again has played too few games to really show what he can do.
Babel and Ngog are not good back-up for Torres, who is looking increasingly fucked off at being an island in the middle of nowhere.
I described that team as 'rubbish'; and that was a bit harsh.
But we have REAL problems, and scoffing at it like you have is bonkers.
[/quote]
That's correct, except about Reina, who is brilliant. Every keeper has the odd rough game, but he recovers very quickly.
You're right in that Hodgson has to improve on his tactics and selections, and especially motivation (ie no more of this 'happy with a point' bullshit)
But some of your comments about the squad are ridiculous.
Reina looks good, but has been patchy; Johnson isnt playing well.
Kelly is unproven,Aurelio is broken and Kopnchesky has played ONE game (thankfully looking decent)
Gerrard aside, Meireles is not fully fit and has to bed in into a new league (thankfully also looking de3cent)
We've replaced a world-class DM with Christian.Poulsen.
Cole is promising, but again has played too few games to really show what he can do.
Babel and Ngog are not good back-up for Torres, who is looking increasingly fucked off at being an island in the middle of nowhere.
I described that team as 'rubbish'; and that was a bit harsh.
But we have REAL problems, and scoffing at it like you have is bonkers.
[/quote]
That's correct, except about Reina, who is brilliant. Every keeper has the odd rough game, but he recovers very quickly.
I think the truth is somewhere in the middle between ragehard's and Avvy's views. Ragehard may not make enough of the problems but I think it's arguable that Avvy overemphasises them (sorry Avvy). Much depends on the next few games IMO but, if we can put a decent run together and build some confidence, I'm quietly hopeful. As Squiggles has said, we should certainly expect to challenge for the CL spots.
S
Squiggles
Guest
Cole isn't an experienced number 10 either.
He just thinks he should be.
He just thinks he should be.
Anyone who thinks we have a better squad than Man Shitty and Spurs is a moron
No.
If we don't do well this year you can blame three years of bad decisions about transfers and contracts. Too much money is owed too many players who aren't very good / are injury prone / not what we need. Until we ship out that rubbish we'll struggle.
I think one big indicator as to whether we're going to repeat recent past mistakes will be Carragher's contract renewal.
If we don't do well this year you can blame three years of bad decisions about transfers and contracts. Too much money is owed too many players who aren't very good / are injury prone / not what we need. Until we ship out that rubbish we'll struggle.
I think one big indicator as to whether we're going to repeat recent past mistakes will be Carragher's contract renewal.
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=41882.msg1174374#msg1174374 date=1284490767]
No.
If we don't do well this year you can blame three years of bad decisions about transfers and contracts. Too much money is owed too many players who aren't very good / are injury prone / not what we need. Until we ship out that rubbish we'll struggle.
I think one big indicator as to whether we're going to repeat recent past mistakes will be Carragher's contract renewal.
[/quote]
Hasn't he all but agreed a 2 year contract with an option for a 3rd year or something? He said so himself at least.
No.
If we don't do well this year you can blame three years of bad decisions about transfers and contracts. Too much money is owed too many players who aren't very good / are injury prone / not what we need. Until we ship out that rubbish we'll struggle.
I think one big indicator as to whether we're going to repeat recent past mistakes will be Carragher's contract renewal.
[/quote]
Hasn't he all but agreed a 2 year contract with an option for a 3rd year or something? He said so himself at least.
Talk us through your thoughts on Reina's contract, Ross
It was aces
It was aces
Thought so
"i'd be happy enough to finish 7th if we played fucking majestic football."
???
???
The question is dependent on the definition of achievement. For us to finish top four having weakened the team considerably in the last 2 years would be a good achievement considering the demoralized team inherited. At no point IMO did the owners ever pump enough money in to make us favorites to win, key for them was finishing top 4, any higher was only a bonus. It was a monumental fuck up on their part not to back Rafa last summer, regardless of whether money was wasted etc because it signalled the end of all forward momentum. We knew we needed more and the players knew and it completely fell apart, a lot of that is down to Rafa. I disagree with Roscos view that it was bad players and contracts that did the damage, they weren't bad players or poorly motivated when we finished second were they? The truth is after 20 years without winning it and opponents like Chelsea who can spend vast amounts of money you have to be seen to buy in big players to strengthen the team and to give the psychological belief that the club is serious about winning. Hodgson has already talked of the gloom surrounding the club and damage limitation, he has an excuse IMO we are in bad shape, not buying a striker for example is a disaster previously seen and still not fixed. I don't care where we finish if it isn't first anyway out of principle but nothing will get truly better until the gloomy owners are disposed of and we start again. I very much doubt Hodgson will be kept on to do that unless we see massive improvement in the way we are playing. Is not having the best team and consistently not having sufficient investment in the team an excuse for not doing well? Obviously yes. The only thing I truly want is to see the team moving forward we will not with GnH and that is just a fact. The reaction so far though is over the top in the extreme, it is possible for us to do OK this season.
To be fair, Rafa had some dosh last year. The significant signings were Aquilani and Johnson for 40m. Fuck me, 40m for them. Johnson is a liability and Aquilani isn't even good enough to be one.
Rafa fucked it up royally last year. I'm not getting on Roy's back unless he's made it any worse after 38 games.
Rafa fucked it up royally last year. I'm not getting on Roy's back unless he's made it any worse after 38 games.
He had little or no dosh on top of players sales did he... If we had sold Torres and spent fifty million does that count as investment? And it clearly counts if you do it right. I also disagree that Rafa just bought shite and wasted money, rarely was he given big cash to spend and when he did have the chance to buy big players he bought some great ones...Aquilani was a fucking disaster but I'm convinced that Rafa thought a striker was on the way in as well and that would possibly have helped out when Torres was fucked. Even the season we bought Torres we sold a good player in Garcia... I don't know i just always have the feeling that money was always in too short a supply to really compete for us, I'm more forgiving than most because I feel we probably wouldn't gamble on the Josemis of this world if we had the money needed for the Alves or the Silvas etc ... It is academic now, it is unreasonable to expect a storming league performance from the team we have because there are a number of teams better equipped and that will remain the situation until we invest in the team or get really fucking lucky. You cannot stand still in this league and financially that what we've been trying to do for a good while.
[quote author=Molbystwin link=topic=41882.msg1174505#msg1174505 date=1284500077]
He had little or no dosh on top of players sales did he... If we had sold Torres and spent fifty million does that count as investment? And it clearly counts if you do it right. I also disagree that Rafa just bought shite and wasted money, rarely was he given big cash to spend and when he did have the chance to buy big players he bought some great ones...Aquilani was a fucking disaster but I'm convinced that Rafa thought a striker was on the way in as well and that would possibly have helped out when Torres was fucked. Even the season we bought Torres we sold a good player in Garcia... I don't know i just always have the feeling that money was always in too short a supply to really compete for us, I'm more forgiving than most because I feel we probably wouldn't gamble on the Josemis of this world if we had the money needed for the Alves or the Silvas etc ... It is academic now, it is unreasonable to expect a storming league performance from the team we have because there are a number of teams better equipped and that will remain the situation until we invest in the team or get really fucking lucky. You cannot stand still in this league and financially that what we've been trying to do for a good while.
[/quote]
Molby do you actually believe any of this complete and utter fucking rubbish you're writing ?
He had little or no dosh on top of players sales did he... If we had sold Torres and spent fifty million does that count as investment? And it clearly counts if you do it right. I also disagree that Rafa just bought shite and wasted money, rarely was he given big cash to spend and when he did have the chance to buy big players he bought some great ones...Aquilani was a fucking disaster but I'm convinced that Rafa thought a striker was on the way in as well and that would possibly have helped out when Torres was fucked. Even the season we bought Torres we sold a good player in Garcia... I don't know i just always have the feeling that money was always in too short a supply to really compete for us, I'm more forgiving than most because I feel we probably wouldn't gamble on the Josemis of this world if we had the money needed for the Alves or the Silvas etc ... It is academic now, it is unreasonable to expect a storming league performance from the team we have because there are a number of teams better equipped and that will remain the situation until we invest in the team or get really fucking lucky. You cannot stand still in this league and financially that what we've been trying to do for a good while.
[/quote]
Molby do you actually believe any of this complete and utter fucking rubbish you're writing ?
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=41882.msg1174507#msg1174507 date=1284500401]
[quote author=Molbystwin link=topic=41882.msg1174505#msg1174505 date=1284500077]
He had little or no dosh on top of players sales did he... If we had sold Torres and spent fifty million does that count as investment? And it clearly counts if you do it right. I also disagree that Rafa just bought shite and wasted money, rarely was he given big cash to spend and when he did have the chance to buy big players he bought some great ones...Aquilani was a fucking disaster but I'm convinced that Rafa thought a striker was on the way in as well and that would possibly have helped out when Torres was fucked. Even the season we bought Torres we sold a good player in Garcia... I don't know i just always have the feeling that money was always in too short a supply to really compete for us, I'm more forgiving than most because I feel we probably wouldn't gamble on the Josemis of this world if we had the money needed for the Alves or the Silvas etc ... It is academic now, it is unreasonable to expect a storming league performance from the team we have because there are a number of teams better equipped and that will remain the situation until we invest in the team or get really fucking lucky. You cannot stand still in this league and financially that what we've been trying to do for a good while.
[/quote]
Molby do you actually believe any of this complete and utter fucking rubbish you're writing ?
[/quote]
It's a fact that Rafa, having brought us really close, due to market forces and the failed gambles of our owners, was given nothing, or very close to it, for two years.
Rafa's choices under those conditions weren't smart, nor were they the previous window, in fact they were disastrous, but the implications were worsened by the fact that there was no room for any failure.
Those two factors are obvious, trying to minimize either one is pretty stupid. The more significant factor, as we'll continue to see, is our parlous financial situation.
[quote author=Molbystwin link=topic=41882.msg1174505#msg1174505 date=1284500077]
He had little or no dosh on top of players sales did he... If we had sold Torres and spent fifty million does that count as investment? And it clearly counts if you do it right. I also disagree that Rafa just bought shite and wasted money, rarely was he given big cash to spend and when he did have the chance to buy big players he bought some great ones...Aquilani was a fucking disaster but I'm convinced that Rafa thought a striker was on the way in as well and that would possibly have helped out when Torres was fucked. Even the season we bought Torres we sold a good player in Garcia... I don't know i just always have the feeling that money was always in too short a supply to really compete for us, I'm more forgiving than most because I feel we probably wouldn't gamble on the Josemis of this world if we had the money needed for the Alves or the Silvas etc ... It is academic now, it is unreasonable to expect a storming league performance from the team we have because there are a number of teams better equipped and that will remain the situation until we invest in the team or get really fucking lucky. You cannot stand still in this league and financially that what we've been trying to do for a good while.
[/quote]
Molby do you actually believe any of this complete and utter fucking rubbish you're writing ?
[/quote]
It's a fact that Rafa, having brought us really close, due to market forces and the failed gambles of our owners, was given nothing, or very close to it, for two years.
Rafa's choices under those conditions weren't smart, nor were they the previous window, in fact they were disastrous, but the implications were worsened by the fact that there was no room for any failure.
Those two factors are obvious, trying to minimize either one is pretty stupid. The more significant factor, as we'll continue to see, is our parlous financial situation.
Rafa did buy some great players in the first few years... but in the last year or so he mostly bought wank. That's why he isn't here anymore. That's why we're wank. Not Roy's fault. Yeah we could have spent more, but what we did spend was ill thought out and now we are where we are.
OK if anything we've only made a profit on our players. So have Manure and Arse. The issues are related but fundamentally the resources available were misused.
OK if anything we've only made a profit on our players. So have Manure and Arse. The issues are related but fundamentally the resources available were misused.
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