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Shelvey

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TheBunnyman

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Terrible debut, poor lad. Played out of position, in a team that was already struggling, so there are clear mitigating factors. And I'm not going to kneejerk and say 'He's shit, he'll never make it etc etc', but perhaps certain posters ought to stop jabbering on about how he's OBVIOUSLY superior to Lucas and should DEFINITELY be playing in the first team every week.

He didn't look ready at all to me. Hopefully he'll get another chance soon to show what he can do. Preferably in a game we've already won.
 
He's a better player than Lucas. Which is the dictionary definition of "damning with faint praise", I know. But he is.
 
Why do people keep acting like it's his first game and taking 45 minutes as a clear indication that he's not ready?

He played well in Napoli, he played decent in the return leg, he's come on against Chelsea and other teams too. It was a shit game last night, no one was keeping possession, he was out of position and generally isolated. Give him a few games at least.
 
All he had to do against Chelsea was run and tackle. Last night was the first time he's really had the ball at his feet in the PL (the Europa League does not have the same pace or intensity) and, let's be honest, he looked overawed, and was a liability.

Obviously it doesn't help to start him in an unfamiliar position, and as said above I'm not writing the lad off at all. But we run the risk of surrendering points if we try to give him a run now, and also potentially destroying his confidence.
 
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=42713.msg1215977#msg1215977 date=1289472744]
He's a better player than Lucas. Which is the dictionary definition of "damning with faint praise", I know. But he is.
[/quote]
What you mean is; He's got more potential than Lucas, right?

Otherwise it's just bollocks really.

One has played several games for Brazil and more than hundred games for Liverpool the other has only played 45 minutes in the Premier League without much luck.

You must be joking.
 
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=42713.msg1215983#msg1215983 date=1289473377]
All he had to do against Chelsea was run and tackle. Last night was the first time he's really had the ball at his feet in the PL (the Europa League does not have the same pace or intensity) and, let's be honest, he looked overawed, and was a liability.

Obviously it doesn't help to start him in an unfamiliar position, and as said above I'm not writing the lad off at all. But we run the risk of surrendering points if we try to give him a run now, and also potentially destroying his confidence.

[/quote]

Which is why we should play Ming and Gerrard in CM, as they are the only two quality central midfielders at the club.

Obviously, it hasn't helped that Cole has looked in no way capable of doing a decent job in supplying Torres with chances (or scoring any goals, but we knew that anyway), so yet again we have a situation where Gerrard is the ONLY FUCKING ANSWER to at least two positions on the pitch.
 
Yeah I'm not really advocating starting him against Stoke, it's best to keep it as it is though, keep giving him sub appearances and let him build up his confidence and knowledge of playing in the Prem. It would equally risky to leave him on the bench (or in the reserves) after one poor display.
 
Playing Poulsen instead won't give as any extra advantage though. We know that he is shit and its unlikely he will improve. Shelvey most probably will.
 
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=42713.msg1215983#msg1215983 date=1289473377]
All he had to do against Chelsea was run and tackle. Last night was the first time he's really had the ball at his feet in the PL (the Europa League does not have the same pace or intensity) and, let's be honest, he looked overawed, and was a liability.

Obviously it doesn't help to start him in an unfamiliar position, and as said above I'm not writing the lad off at all. But we run the risk of surrendering points if we try to give him a run now, and also potentially destroying his confidence.

[/quote]

He is superior to Lucas and Poulsen. Statistical proof is below:

Current standings:

1. Gerrard......................4 MOM........2 2nd.................................26 points
2. Reina.........................1 MOM........3 3rd..........5 Bonus........13 points
3. Ngog.........................1 MOM.........2 2nd.........1 3rd..............12 points
4. Meireles....................3 2nd.........2 3rd...................................11 points
5. Skrtel..........................3 2nd.........1 3rd...................................10 points
6. Kyrgiakos.................2 MOM............................................... .....10 points
7. Johnson....................2 MOM............................................... ...10 points
8. Cole...........................2 MOM............................................... ....10 points
9. Torres........................1 MOM.........2 3rd..................................7 points
10.Shelvey......................2 MOM*.............................................. ...6 points
11.Mascherano.............1 MOM............................................... ....5 points
12.Kelly...........................1 2nd..........2 3rd..................................5 points
13.Carragher.................1 2nd.........1 3rd...................................4 points
14.Konchesky...............1 2nd............................................... ......3 points
15.Kuyt............................1 2nd............................................... .....3 points
16.Jovanovic..................1 2nd............................................... .....3 points
17.Cavalieri...................2 Bonus............................................. ...2 points
18.Spearing...................1 3rd........................................................1 point
19.Poulsen.....................1 3rd............................................... .......1 point
19.Lucas.........................1 3rd.......................................................1 point
Click to expand...


The only way he shouldn't be starting is when Meireles and Gerrard are playing the middle.
 
While he was dire, I think he was trying too hard to make something happen, or play the killer ball, when he should've been keeping it simple. He had a shit game, but he needs the manager to persevere with him, because I think it will be worth it in the end. He'll probably have more days like yesterday but he needs these opportunities to acclimatize.
 
[quote author=KHL link=topic=42713.msg1215994#msg1215994 date=1289473684]
Dmishra tell me you are having a laugh?
[/quote]

I think he needs protecting but he also needs minutes to prove either way, because he's clearly a player with ability, I find it amazing how you've made you're mind up based on 45 minutes when first teamers last night looked equally inept (and that's not a dig at the Dane, but players like Konchesky and Lucas).

You've had your back up over players not getting a chance in the past, and these are weathered internationals, you were pissed off at people writing off Poulsen so soon and not giving him a chance, so why are you coming down so hard on an 18 year old's 45 minutes performance?
 
[quote author=dmishra link=topic=42713.msg1215991#msg1215991 date=1289473587]
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=42713.msg1215983#msg1215983 date=1289473377]
All he had to do against Chelsea was run and tackle. Last night was the first time he's really had the ball at his feet in the PL (the Europa League does not have the same pace or intensity) and, let's be honest, he looked overawed, and was a liability.

Obviously it doesn't help to start him in an unfamiliar position, and as said above I'm not writing the lad off at all. But we run the risk of surrendering points if we try to give him a run now, and also potentially destroying his confidence.

[/quote]

He is superior to Lucas and Poulsen. Statistical proof is below:

Current standings:

1. Gerrard......................4 MOM........2 2nd.................................26 points
2. Reina.........................1 MOM........3 3rd..........5 Bonus........13 points
3. Ngog.........................1 MOM.........2 2nd.........1 3rd..............12 points
4. Meireles....................3 2nd.........2 3rd...................................11 points
5. Skrtel..........................3 2nd.........1 3rd...................................10 points
6. Kyrgiakos.................2 MOM............................................... .....10 points
7. Johnson....................2 MOM............................................... ...10 points
8. Cole...........................2 MOM............................................... ....10 points
9. Torres........................1 MOM.........2 3rd..................................7 points
10.Shelvey......................2 MOM*.............................................. ...6 points
11.Mascherano.............1 MOM............................................... ....5 points
12.Kelly...........................1 2nd..........2 3rd..................................5 points
13.Carragher.................1 2nd.........1 3rd...................................4 points
14.Konchesky...............1 2nd............................................... ......3 points
15.Kuyt............................1 2nd............................................... .....3 points
16.Jovanovic..................1 2nd............................................... .....3 points
17.Cavalieri...................2 Bonus............................................. ...2 points
18.Spearing...................1 3rd........................................................1 point
19.Poulsen.....................1 3rd............................................... .......1 point
19.Lucas.........................1 3rd.......................................................1 point
Click to expand...


The only way he shouldn't be starting is when Meireles and Gerrard are playing the middle.
[/quote]

Statistical proof! Ha ha, you're a joke.

I agree about Ming and Stevie starting in CM: see my Stoke post. And I'm certainly not advocating Poulsen ahead of Shelvey, nor dumping him back in the reserves. But dmishra is the perfect example of those clueless posters who yammer on about how Shelvey should play every game, based on nothing more than a few preseason matches and League One highlights reels, even though they don't even watch him when he does.
 
FWIW, if Shelvey is going to start, I think it should be in a more advanced central position. Not in CM because the costs of making a mistake are too high, and certainly not on the fucking wing because he's too slow and not used to playing there.
 
Everyone was just hoofing it out of our own half last night, so it's pointless making any kind of judgements based on that appearance. And not unlike Clint Meireles, he should be put in the middle of the park when he does play.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=42713.msg1215997#msg1215997 date=1289473832]
[quote author=KHL link=topic=42713.msg1215994#msg1215994 date=1289473684]
Dmishra tell me you are having a laugh?
[/quote]

I think he needs protecting but he also needs minutes to prove either way, because he's clearly a player with ability, I find it amazing how you've made you're mind up based on 45 minutes when first teamers last night looked equally inept (and that's not a dig at the Dane, but players like Konchesky and Lucas).

You've had your back up over players not getting a chance in the past, and these are weathered internationals, you were pissed off at people writing off Poulsen so soon and not giving him a chance, so why are you coming down so hard on an 18 year old's 45 minutes performance?
[/quote]
I've made my mind up with regards to Shelvey and said so on numerous occasions today already. He's a great talent and one for the future. What I don't get is that posters like yourself are covering over his obvious flaws. He doesn't look ready to be a starter at this point.
 
[quote author=KHL link=topic=42713.msg1215994#msg1215994 date=1289473684]
Dmishra tell me you are having a laugh?
[/quote]

I'm not. Shelvey has been more impressive than both Lucas and Poulsen this season. That much is pretty evident.

You might argue that Lucas has played some 80 odd games for Liverpool and Shelvey has played only some 7 odd games, given that Shelvey has shown himself to be a better player in those 7 games than Lucas has shown in those 80, I would say he is the better player.

And I'm not even going into Poulsen.
 
[quote author=dmishra link=topic=42713.msg1216003#msg1216003 date=1289474239]
[quote author=KHL link=topic=42713.msg1215994#msg1215994 date=1289473684]
Dmishra tell me you are having a laugh?
[/quote]

I'm not. Shelvey has been more impressive than both Lucas and Poulsen this season. That much is pretty evident.

You might argue that Lucas has played some 80 odd games for Liverpool and Shelvey has played only some 7 odd games, given that Shelvey has shown himself to be a better player in those 7 games than Lucas has shown in those 80, I would say he is the better player.

And I'm not even going into Poulsen.
[/quote]
You said yourself you didn't watch him play last night right? How many more games has he had in the Prem apart from the last 20 minutes of defending against Chelsea?

I'd be far more content with Lucas or Poulsen in central ahead of Shelvey at this stage. If he plays then play him further up field where his erorrs wouldn't prove as costly. But mostly do so in Europe and in the FA Cup as he's obviously NOT ready for the Premier League.
 
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=42713.msg1215998#msg1215998 date=1289473851]
[quote author=dmishra link=topic=42713.msg1215991#msg1215991 date=1289473587]
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=42713.msg1215983#msg1215983 date=1289473377]
All he had to do against Chelsea was run and tackle. Last night was the first time he's really had the ball at his feet in the PL (the Europa League does not have the same pace or intensity) and, let's be honest, he looked overawed, and was a liability.

Obviously it doesn't help to start him in an unfamiliar position, and as said above I'm not writing the lad off at all. But we run the risk of surrendering points if we try to give him a run now, and also potentially destroying his confidence.

[/quote]

He is superior to Lucas and Poulsen. Statistical proof is below:

Current standings:

1. Gerrard......................4 MOM........2 2nd.................................26 points
2. Reina.........................1 MOM........3 3rd..........5 Bonus........13 points
3. Ngog.........................1 MOM.........2 2nd.........1 3rd..............12 points
4. Meireles....................3 2nd.........2 3rd...................................11 points
5. Skrtel..........................3 2nd.........1 3rd...................................10 points
6. Kyrgiakos.................2 MOM............................................... .....10 points
7. Johnson....................2 MOM............................................... ...10 points
8. Cole...........................2 MOM............................................... ....10 points
9. Torres........................1 MOM.........2 3rd..................................7 points
10.Shelvey......................2 MOM*.............................................. ...6 points
11.Mascherano.............1 MOM............................................... ....5 points
12.Kelly...........................1 2nd..........2 3rd..................................5 points
13.Carragher.................1 2nd.........1 3rd...................................4 points
14.Konchesky...............1 2nd............................................... ......3 points
15.Kuyt............................1 2nd............................................... .....3 points
16.Jovanovic..................1 2nd............................................... .....3 points
17.Cavalieri...................2 Bonus............................................. ...2 points
18.Spearing...................1 3rd........................................................1 point
19.Poulsen.....................1 3rd............................................... .......1 point
19.Lucas.........................1 3rd.......................................................1 point
Click to expand...


The only way he shouldn't be starting is when Meireles and Gerrard are playing the middle.
[/quote]

Statistical proof! Ha ha, you're a joke.

I agree about Ming and Stevie starting in CM: see my Stoke post. And I'm certainly not advocating Poulsen ahead of Shelvey, nor dumping him back in the reserves. But dmishra is the perfect example of those clueless posters who yammer on about how Shelvey should play every game, based on nothing more than a few preseason matches and League One highlights reels, even though they don't even watch him when he does.

[/quote]

So I see the only point of disagreement is whether Lucas is better than Shelvey or not?
 
The whole Midfield was shit, well more like none existant.

We just hoofed the ball from our penalty Area as far as we could, the 'midfield' just watched it sailing over thier heads!

Tactically we was utterly utterly CRAP
 
[quote author=KHL link=topic=42713.msg1216002#msg1216002 date=1289474145]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=42713.msg1215997#msg1215997 date=1289473832]
[quote author=KHL link=topic=42713.msg1215994#msg1215994 date=1289473684]
Dmishra tell me you are having a laugh?
[/quote]

I think he needs protecting but he also needs minutes to prove either way, because he's clearly a player with ability, I find it amazing how you've made you're mind up based on 45 minutes when first teamers last night looked equally inept (and that's not a dig at the Dane, but players like Konchesky and Lucas).

You've had your back up over players not getting a chance in the past, and these are weathered internationals, you were pissed off at people writing off Poulsen so soon and not giving him a chance, so why are you coming down so hard on an 18 year old's 45 minutes performance?
[/quote]
I've made my mind up with regards to Shelvey and said so on numerous occasions today already. He's a great talent and one for the future. What I don't get is that posters like yourself are covering over his obvious flaws. He doesn't look ready to be a starter at this point.
[/quote]

With some perspective, obviously there are some games he shouldn't be thrown into, like dogged away games or balanced scorelines against good opposition, but there are times when he HAS to be worth the risk ahead of Poulsen or even Lucas (provided the midfield balance is correct). He looked good, and confident in Italy in what is renowned for being intimidating conditions and he looked good in the return leg, so that's two good games against 45 minutes out of position in a game where the entire team were struggling.

What flaws am I covering up btw? My score in the ratings thread might have been over enthusiastic and generous but where have I said he's the finished article or infallible? He has a good footballing brain and a good pass on him, he's also young and will make mistakes, what else is there to say?
 
Very disappointed with him last night, but he was played out of position and in a team that looked like it had never played together before. All in all - I'll reserve judgement.
 
[quote author=KHL link=topic=42713.msg1216005#msg1216005 date=1289474371]
he's obviously NOT ready for the Premier League.
[/quote]


So confirmation right there, you've made your mind up based on last night.
 
[quote author=KHL link=topic=42713.msg1216005#msg1216005 date=1289474371]
[quote author=dmishra link=topic=42713.msg1216003#msg1216003 date=1289474239]
[quote author=KHL link=topic=42713.msg1215994#msg1215994 date=1289473684]
Dmishra tell me you are having a laugh?
[/quote]

I'm not. Shelvey has been more impressive than both Lucas and Poulsen this season. That much is pretty evident.

You might argue that Lucas has played some 80 odd games for Liverpool and Shelvey has played only some 7 odd games, given that Shelvey has shown himself to be a better player in those 7 games than Lucas has shown in those 80, I would say he is the better player.

And I'm not even going into Poulsen.
[/quote]
You said yourself you didn't watch him play last night right? How many more games has he had in the Prem apart from the last 20 minutes of defending against Chelsea?

I'd be far more content with Lucas or Poulsen in central ahead of Shelvey at this stage. If he plays then play him further up field where his erorrs wouldn't prove as costly. But mostly do so in Europe and in the FA Cup as he's obviously NOT ready for the Premier League.
[/quote]

I missed the game last night. I take it that he didn't have a great game, though his ratings ranged from 2 to 6.5, so I'm not sure what to make of it. I also take it that he played on the right and that the entire team had a mare.

I've seen nothing from what I've seen of the 6-7 games he;s played in that he won't do well in the PL. In an ideal world, I woudn't want him starting. But given the alternatives, he should be in there. As I said, the only people who should be keeping him out of the first team are Gerrard and Meireles. If either of them are unavailable, or if Gerrard is playing at AM, Shelvey should be starting. Period.
 
[quote author=KHL link=topic=42713.msg1216005#msg1216005 date=1289474371]
[quote author=dmishra link=topic=42713.msg1216003#msg1216003 date=1289474239]
[quote author=KHL link=topic=42713.msg1215994#msg1215994 date=1289473684]
Dmishra tell me you are having a laugh?
[/quote]

I'm not. Shelvey has been more impressive than both Lucas and Poulsen this season. That much is pretty evident.

You might argue that Lucas has played some 80 odd games for Liverpool and Shelvey has played only some 7 odd games, given that Shelvey has shown himself to be a better player in those 7 games than Lucas has shown in those 80, I would say he is the better player.

And I'm not even going into Poulsen.
[/quote]
You said yourself you didn't watch him play last night right? How many more games has he had in the Prem apart from the last 20 minutes of defending against Chelsea?

I'd be far more content with Lucas or Poulsen in central ahead of Shelvey at this stage. If he plays then play him further up field where his erorrs wouldn't prove as costly. But mostly do so in Europe and in the FA Cup as he's obviously NOT ready for the Premier League.
[/quote]

Whilst I do see your point, what is it that you think will help get him ready? Reserve team football and the odd game against lesser opposition or a proper run in the side?

If we had loads of really good players ahead of Shelvey then yes I might well agree with you. However, I don't see what is to be gained from playing Poulsen. He's not about to improve now is he?
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=42713.msg1216014#msg1216014 date=1289474668]
[quote author=KHL link=topic=42713.msg1216005#msg1216005 date=1289474371]
he's obviously NOT ready for the Premier League.
[/quote]


So confirmation right there, you've made your mind up based on last night.


[/quote]
Let me rephrase. He's not ready for a CM starting-role at Liverpool when playing in the Premier League. I want him to get 45 minutes of footy here and there getting familiar with the pace and all I just don't think he looks anywhere near ready to obtain a CM-role. He'd do less harm on the wing I reckon but I'd still pick Meireles, Cole, Kuyt, Maxi and even Johnson before him.


Maybe he's a quick learner and maybe he'll soon be ready to start week in week out I'd just give him a day off come Stoke or at least only play him as a sub.
 
[quote author=Richey link=topic=42713.msg1216016#msg1216016 date=1289474772]
[quote author=KHL link=topic=42713.msg1216005#msg1216005 date=1289474371]
[quote author=dmishra link=topic=42713.msg1216003#msg1216003 date=1289474239]
[quote author=KHL link=topic=42713.msg1215994#msg1215994 date=1289473684]
Dmishra tell me you are having a laugh?
[/quote]

I'm not. Shelvey has been more impressive than both Lucas and Poulsen this season. That much is pretty evident.

You might argue that Lucas has played some 80 odd games for Liverpool and Shelvey has played only some 7 odd games, given that Shelvey has shown himself to be a better player in those 7 games than Lucas has shown in those 80, I would say he is the better player.

And I'm not even going into Poulsen.
[/quote]
You said yourself you didn't watch him play last night right? How many more games has he had in the Prem apart from the last 20 minutes of defending against Chelsea?

I'd be far more content with Lucas or Poulsen in central ahead of Shelvey at this stage. If he plays then play him further up field where his erorrs wouldn't prove as costly. But mostly do so in Europe and in the FA Cup as he's obviously NOT ready for the Premier League.
[/quote]

Whilst I do see your point, what is it that you think will help get him ready? Reserve team football and the odd game against lesser opposition or a proper run in the side?

If we had loads of really good players ahead of Shelvey then yes I might well agree with you. However, I don't see what is to be gained from playing Poulsen. He's not about to improve now is he?
[/quote]
Poulsen can only improve as far I'm concerned.

You can break a young players confidence completely if you play him at club like Liverpool where expectations are sky high and expect him to deliver.
I'm just saying starting him against Stoke would be a major risk especially after having watched him last night at Wigan. I'd prefer to see him beeing brought on as a sub now and then.
 
[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=42713.msg1216011#msg1216011 date=1289474524]
That list proves that Calavieri, SPearing and Poulsen are better than Babel 😉
[/quote]

Morse's MOTM table is the possibly the most accurate guide of assessing the contribution of a Liverpool player at the end of a season.

While it is obviously premature to look at it in the middle of the season (especially in the context of comparing a regular starter with a player who has played only in some the fringe games), I think it is more than interesting to note that the regular starter has 1 point and sits at the bottom of the table whereas the 'fringe player' has two MOM's to his credit already.
 
[quote author=dmishra link=topic=42713.msg1216026#msg1216026 date=1289475185]
[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=42713.msg1216011#msg1216011 date=1289474524]
That list proves that Calavieri, SPearing and Poulsen are better than Babel 😉
[/quote]

Morse's MOTM table is the possibly the most accurate guide of assessing the contribution of a Liverpool player at the end of a season.

[/quote]

What? No it's not. You're off your head.
 
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