Right! Right back?
- Thread starter Ossi
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Clyne is our best defender so that should be a clue
Might it partly be down to the side that Matip takes in the CB partnership? i.e. attacking down our right means that it is Lovren/ Klavan at the far post, rather than Matip and they are in favour of cross over Matip into a space they believe they have more chance to win the ball in?
There was a really weird backlash towards Clyne at the back end of last season from some of our fans on Twitter, don't get it at all personally, he's great.
TAA, is still extremely raw, and the game against City showed that. He got targeted all game and could not cope.
I'd still like to see Gomez given some extended time at CB.
TAA, is still extremely raw, and the game against City showed that. He got targeted all game and could not cope.
I'd still like to see Gomez given some extended time at CB.
The thing is that there seemed to be a general consensus for a while that TAA/Gomez were, at least, as good as Clyne. Me included to some extent.
Our defenders need to stop waving for offside/throw in/freekicks etc and play until the ref blows his whistle. TAA in particular but the same goes for Lovren and Matip too. It isn´t difficult.
I'm not sure it was that weird (and per the other thread where this is getting discussed) - I think Clyne has only taken flack for not improving his final ball and the disappearance of his attacking threat - not sure anyone has claimed he isn't the real deal defensively. He'd clearly walk straight back into this side at the mo. My question is, with him out injured, why hasnt Milner been pushed into use on that side? Surely he'd find it just as easy (if not easier) than his stint last year at LB...
Well, Milner's not the sort to throw his toys out of his pram over it (witness last season) but he's known to want to play MF and I suspect some sort of commitment was given to him that he'd be doing so from the start of this season. If things keep on the way they're going, though, it wouldn't surprise me to see him at RB for a spell.
I don't know that teams target us specifically at right back because we're weak defensively on both flanks but also right through the middle of defence. Anywhere teams attack us can be dangerous and always will be unless we change the defenders and midfielders responsible for tracking runners or the formation/style of play changes. We will not improve defensively unless these problems are addressed and to hope that they will be is overoptimistic in my view.
Like the last few seasons we are suspect at set pieces which hasn't changed, the left back position improved in the first half of last season but after christmas Milner's performances started to suffer I suspect due to the amount of running he'd had to do. The centre halves (it doesn't seem to matter too much which combination) struggle with pace over the top, big physical strikers , trying to play the offside trap and often failing, tracking midfield runners and being pulled into wide positions due to absent full backs. Basically we aren't just vulnerable in one or two areas of defence but pretty much all of them.
The midfield doesn't help or protect the defence like they should either. I don't know why we only seem to bother with the counter press more often as it's our best form of defence given the current setup. It could be that key personnel are missing at the moment (Lallana) or that not all players are very good at it (Sturridge) or more likely that it's too difficult physically to do it in every game. It's also true that it wouldn't work against every opponent as some teams would just kick the ball over the top and that negates the press almost immediately. Weirdly us using the midfield and forwards to do the bulk of our defensive work when pressing or counter pressing makes us more solid as the shaky defence isn't called upon as often as it otherwise would be.
As for Clyne his main weakness defensively is his lack of height and there's nothing he can do to improve that. His crossing is still shit though.
Like the last few seasons we are suspect at set pieces which hasn't changed, the left back position improved in the first half of last season but after christmas Milner's performances started to suffer I suspect due to the amount of running he'd had to do. The centre halves (it doesn't seem to matter too much which combination) struggle with pace over the top, big physical strikers , trying to play the offside trap and often failing, tracking midfield runners and being pulled into wide positions due to absent full backs. Basically we aren't just vulnerable in one or two areas of defence but pretty much all of them.
The midfield doesn't help or protect the defence like they should either. I don't know why we only seem to bother with the counter press more often as it's our best form of defence given the current setup. It could be that key personnel are missing at the moment (Lallana) or that not all players are very good at it (Sturridge) or more likely that it's too difficult physically to do it in every game. It's also true that it wouldn't work against every opponent as some teams would just kick the ball over the top and that negates the press almost immediately. Weirdly us using the midfield and forwards to do the bulk of our defensive work when pressing or counter pressing makes us more solid as the shaky defence isn't called upon as often as it otherwise would be.
As for Clyne his main weakness defensively is his lack of height and there's nothing he can do to improve that. His crossing is still shit though.
Good post. Would add only a couple of points:
- If our defence got the same amount of protection from our midfield that other top four sides get from theirs, I think they'd do a lot better. The arrival of Keita will be crucial in that respect IMO and my bet is that a lot of our planning for this season was based on him and van Dijk joining the squad. Ideally, though, we'll need to sign more than just those two for similar roles, something which I'm hoping Klopp (and the owners) will see for themselves from the way we've played so far this season.
- Clyne's attacking play wasn't always poor - in fact it was quite the contrary at Palace and Southampton. Maybe the fact that we now know he's had a long-term injury sheds some light on why that side of his game has nosedived as it has, and I haven't given up hope that he can get his attacking mojo back if that injury is properly sorted now. Incidentally it also shows how excellent his defensive play is, given that that side of his game hasn't seemed to suffer even though he hasn't been truly fit for quite a while.
That's not so much of an issue at fullback, though. Although it's always nice to have a few more inches in the backline (stopit!)
I'm speculating here as I don't have any evidence and can't be arsed to go looking, but could the swap from right to left for Mané also be influential?
How do you mean? Mane's defensive work helping out whichever flank he's on?
Dunno, he and Salah seem very industrious, but the attacking player who does the vast majority of tackling and defensive work is Firmino, so when he doesn't play there's probably repercussions defensively.
I agree about the midfield helping more would improve the defence and that Keita was an important part of Klopps plan for that. The disappointing thing is that without Keitas addition the midfield has stayed like it was last season and nothing much has been done to address the problems there. Similar to Van Dijk not coming the attitude is that we'll wait until next year and that's a pretty big gamble. Also we haven't got the defensive midfielder option of Lucas anymore and although he wasn't a long term solution Klopp used him plenty of times to try and shut games down. Without him or Keita that role seems to be Milner's now and I'm not sure he's suited to it.
Clyne doesn't usually have much height to aim for at Liverpool as most of our strikers cannot compete with centre backs in the air, so I think he tries to put the ball in lower to give the strikers more of a chance and it's easier to cut out a low ball into the middle rather than a high one. You need to have more accuracy and control over the cross to put it in like that than hanging it up at the far post.
Yeah, that's what I was going for. I guess I'm maybe correlating Moreno's increased stability with Mané's switch also.
Hmm, I wouldn't get too used to "Moreno's stability" just yet, he's hardly done enough to suggest we can trust him.
I would certainly agree that having a player as good as Mane ahead of him - or any full-back - can only make the attacking part of your game improve though.
One (small) thing about set pieces: Can someone please explain why we put Firmino in the middle, at the most dangerous area, at every set piece against us? He´s shit at picking up runs, not very good at heading away the ball and not very strong..
It's equally mystifying why he's in the area when we have a set-piece.
I've no idea really. Maybe the other players we've tried have been even more useless there. It's not as if we have a lot to choose from when it comes to our players being good in the air which is perhaps a blindspot for Klopp when it comes to recruitment. I know he wanted VVD but most of the midfielders we get are smaller in stature and it doesn't help at defensive set pieces.
Mourinho on the other hand favours bigger players for his teams in this country, the current Man Utd squad has lots of tall ,physical players. Tottenham have a big team and Leicester benefitted from this in their title year as well.
Can, Grujic and Henderson are all big enough
They are all big lads but that doesn't mean they're all good in the air or can compete at set pieces, only Grujic out of them three has the necessary aggression for me .
Being good at heading the ball under pressure is about timing , aggression and bravery whereas being tall is just a good physical advantage to have when you need to apply them things.
Stan Collymore was a prime example of a big lad who was shit in the air.
Joel Matip is another
You have a point with Matip. I've noticed that when a goal kick or any long ball that's directed at him and whatever forward he's marking he backs away from the ball instead of going forward and meeting it. This gives the forward such an advantage in getting hold of the ball or heading it on or getting a free kick that the coaching team should be trying to get him out of such bad habits.
He´s too weak. And not just in the air.
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