Poll Remenissions

[keniget]

[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=43964.msg1274133#msg1274133 date=1296558831]
Phooey. For one thing you've clearly missed the very next sentence of my post. For another, why does practically every successful side have an anklebiter in midfield? Last but not least, why haven't we replaced Mascher?
[/quote]

Like Utd in the last few years?

Spain, Barcelona... Busquets is hardly an ankle biter. He's more Alonso than Masher.

Why haven't we replaced Masher whereas we've done a better job of replacing Alonso?

One has been gone for 18 months, the other 6 months. Not that hard a question to answer.

 

[Judge Jules]

[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=43964.msg1274149#msg1274149 date=1296559402]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=43964.msg1274133#msg1274133 date=1296558831]
Phooey. For one thing you've clearly missed the very next sentence of my post. For another, why does practically every successful side have an anklebiter in midfield? Last but not least, why haven't we replaced Mascher?
[/quote]

You'd have to ask the management. I've a horrible feeling that they feel we are adequately covered there for the time being. Perhaps Kenny feels he can coax the old Poulsen back? He's certainly giving him every chance.

More pertinently however, we haven't replaced Alonso either, despite your claim that we have. And we've gone inexorably backwards (haven't you noticed?) since he left - even while Mascherano was still here. I'm hopeful that we can build a midfield around Stevie and Meireles, but they need better options out wide, because they (bar the odd Hollywood ball from Gerrard) simply don't have the passing range that Alonso had.

I would have thought that it's almost indisputable who we've missed more.
[/quote]

You keep sailing right past the bit in my earlier post when I said "We've missed him [i.e.Alonso] big time". That's not at issue.

For the rest - without Mascher we'd have slipped back much further still. Time after time in his last complete season he made the difference between drawing/scraping a win and losing. It'll never be possible to know for sure, but I don't even reckon Alonso himself would have shown up so well for us without Mascher alongside or behind him taking care of business. I respect the view that Alonso was the bigger miss, but IMO it's a somewhat superficial one and certainly far from indisputable.

 

[Avmenon]

If we're talking about who we should hypothetically 'bring back'; then I think the answer has be sadly, Mascerano.

He's 26, isn't playing regularly for Barca, and would replace Pucas.

As for which player we've missed more it's clearly Alonso.

But he's 29, is playing well for Real, and would replace Shelvey or Meireles.

However, in the politest terms possible; they can both get to fuck.

 

[Judge Jules]

[quote author=keniget link=topic=43964.msg1274161#msg1274161 date=1296559938]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=43964.msg1274133#msg1274133 date=1296558831]
Phooey. For one thing you've clearly missed the very next sentence of my post. For another, why does practically every successful side have an anklebiter in midfield? Last but not least, why haven't we replaced Mascher?
[/quote]

Like Utd in the last few years?

Spain, Barcelona... Busquets is hardly an ankle biter. He's more Alonso than Masher.

Why haven't we replaced Masher whereas we've done a better job of replacing Alonso?

One has been gone for 18 months, the other 6 months. Not that hard a question to answer.
[/quote]

United have had Fletcher, Barca have had players like Van Bommel and Toure, and we don't need to wait another 12 months before being able to see - if we're willing to - that Mascher replacements are thin on the ground.

 

[Modo]

[quote author=Avvy link=topic=43964.msg1274177#msg1274177 date=1296560481]
If we're talking about who we should hypothetically 'bring back'; then I think the answer has be sadly, Mascerano.

He's 26, isn't playing regularly for Barca, and would replace Pucas.

As for which player we've missed more it's clearly Alonso.

But he's 29, is playing well for Real, and would replace Shelvey or Meireles.

However, in the politest terms possible; they can both get to fuck.
[/quote]

Haha a little harsh on Xabi, no.

 

[jimmy]

I'm with the judge. Mascherano. But only for footballing reasons, because we've all been burnt by Mascherano the man.

 

[King Binny]

If we're to go ahead with 'the Liverpool way', then Alonso's definitely gonna fit in better vs. Mascherano. I think its no coincidence that Mascherano cant get a regular spot at Barca cos of their style too.

 

[Judge Jules]

The Liverpool way has always involved a terrier (or two) somewhere on the field. Even in the glory days we'd have won less without the Tommy Smiths and the Graeme Sounesses of this world.

 

[Delinquent]

[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=43964.msg1274164#msg1274164 date=1296560038]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=43964.msg1274149#msg1274149 date=1296559402]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=43964.msg1274133#msg1274133 date=1296558831]
Phooey. For one thing you've clearly missed the very next sentence of my post. For another, why does practically every successful side have an anklebiter in midfield? Last but not least, why haven't we replaced Mascher?
[/quote]

You'd have to ask the management. I've a horrible feeling that they feel we are adequately covered there for the time being. Perhaps Kenny feels he can coax the old Poulsen back? He's certainly giving him every chance.

More pertinently however, we haven't replaced Alonso either, despite your claim that we have. And we've gone inexorably backwards (haven't you noticed?) since he left - even while Mascherano was still here. I'm hopeful that we can build a midfield around Stevie and Meireles, but they need better options out wide, because they (bar the odd Hollywood ball from Gerrard) simply don't have the passing range that Alonso had.

I would have thought that it's almost indisputable who we've missed more.
[/quote]

You keep sailing right past the bit in my earlier post when I said "We've missed him [i.e.Alonso] big time". That's not at issue.

For the rest - without Mascher we'd have slipped back much further still. Time after time in his last complete season he made the difference between drawing/scraping a win and losing. It'll never be possible to know for sure, but I don't even reckon Alonso himself would have shown up so well for us without Mascher alongside or behind him taking care of business. I respect the view that Alonso was the bigger miss, but IMO it's a somewhat superficial one and certainly far from indisputable.
[/quote]

We came 2nd the season Alonso left. We came 7th last season with Masher pretty much a permanent fixture. We're currently 7th in the table. I don't want to get into Masher bashing, because I'd love him back also, but in terms of the qualities they bring to the team, it's pretty clear who we've missed the most.

It's like Keni said - Alonso makes an enormous difference when we're in possession. Masher's qualities come to the fore when we're not in possession. The better we are at keeping the ball, the less time we'll spend trying to win it back. I know that's over-simplifying things slightly, but I think the point is a valid one.

In terms of sailing past your point, I guess I was just a little surprised to see you gloating in your opening post (about how right you and others had been that Alonso would be easier to replace), when in fact, that couldn't be further from the truth. I distinctly remember the (very long) thread about who would be the bigger loss between them prior to Alonso leaving, and I think the only ones who have been proven right, were those of us who warned against letting Alonso go.

 

[Judge Jules]

Despite my views on this question I warned against Alonso going too (like you I don't fit into the school of thought, championed notably by neil on here, which holds that to rate one you have to criticise the other), and the comparison between those two seasons doesn't really help resolve this because it doesn't compare like with like, i.e.a season without Alonso versus one with him but without Mascher.

Never mind. Iss all abaht opinions, innit, Brian?

 

[jan]

I think Alonso's defensive capabilities are often underrated. He's able to make a lot of interceptions because of his excellent positioning and isn't afraid to tackle as well

 

[Judge Jules]

Wouldn't disagree, but they would never have been enough to make up for losing Mascher's hard graft beside him. We wouldn't have wanted him to be spending his time doing that anyway.

 

[Delinquent]

[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=43964.msg1274234#msg1274234 date=1296561909]
Despite my views on this question I warned against Alonso going too (like you I don't fit into the school of thought, championed notably by neil on here, which holds that to rate one you have to criticise the other), and the comparison between those two seasons doesn't really help resolve this because it doesn't compare like with like, i.e.a season without Alonso versus one with him but without Mascher.

Never mind. Iss all abaht opinions, innit, Brian?
[/quote]

Indeed. In light of this, you should really be arguing for the return of Alonso, so we can resolve this once and for all. 😉

 

[Judge Jules]

*Cackle*. ;D

 

[dmishra]

Alonso led the league in tackles made for two of the five seasons he played for us, and was in the top 5 in two other seasons. His slide-tackling technique, as with his ability to pass the ball, was absolutely world class.

The only thing Masher had over him was his tremendous engine. Alonso pretty much trumps him in almost every other facet of the game.

Also, JJ, I agree with you on most things here, but I find your stance here completely off the mark. We've not replaced Mascherano because we've not tried (or rather spent on the worst DM on the planet). The point remains that replacing Mascherano is an easier task than replacing Alonso because DMs or enforcers are easier to come by than 'complete central midfielders' like Alonso. We've spunked some £37m on Lucas, Aquilani, and Meireles for a player to fill Alonso's boots and only in Meireles have we seen some semblance of a player who can make the midfield tick.

We do miss Mascherano but I'm pretty confident £10m spent well could buy more than an adequate replacement for him.

 

[Ryan]

I'm all for personal preferences and opinions n shit, but anyone who picks Mascherano in this thread is fucking stupid and clueless.

 

[Sunny]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=43964.msg1274352#msg1274352 date=1296565371]
I'm all for personal preferences and opinions n shit, but anyone who picks Mascherano in this thread is fucking stupid and clueless.
[/quote]

Hahaha. Not contradictory in the slightest.

 

[KopPoNok]

Alonso. As he always get one of the opposition sent off.

As for Mascherano, he always get himself sent off.

 

[Ryan]

That fucking pint sized eye-bulging yard dog prick over the fucking rolls royce that is Xabi Alonso.

Pffft.

Besides we've got enough cunts who can run around lots and give the ball away. Barca probably use him for 'fetch' in training. 'Go stand behind the nets and kick the ball back that go over the bar you dumb cunt'.

 

[tommyboy]

[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=43964.msg1274211#msg1274211 date=1296561321]
The Liverpool way has always involved a terrier (or two) somewhere on the field. Even in the glory days we'd have won less without the Tommy Smiths and the Graeme Sounesses of this world.
[/quote]

Both players who had quite a bit of skill to them too so comparisons to Mascherano aren't really that valid,Alonso and by some distance too....

 

[Judge Jules]

Alonso is a far more skilful footballer than Mascher, but that's not and never was the point. It's a team game and, whereas we've partly filled the Alonso gap, we haven't - we just haven't - replaced Mascher. You can tell me Mascher's "easier to replace" all you want, but events give the lie to that penny-in-the-slot assumption.