Ratings - Newcastle (A)

[manwithnoname]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=43138.msg1232808#msg1232808 date=1292233878]
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=43138.msg1232798#msg1232798 date=1292233216]
Another away game. Another defeat for The Worst Liverpool Manager In History (tm).

Reina (4). Looked a bit sluggish and didn't fill anyone with confidence. Apart from Newcastle.

Magic (6). Probably our best player, although that's not saying much. Gutierrez has no end product anyway, but he was kept very quiet.
Skittles (1). Abject in every way. Has a head that is a cross between a tit and a 50p piece. One of the worst defensive displays I've seen in ages.
Zorba (4). He and Skittles were batterd from pillar to post by the excellent Carrol.
Cuntchesky (2). After the improvement against Villa, back to his hapless, slow, retarded ways. Also has a head like a tit and made Joey Barton et al look like the best attacking force in the world.

Maxi (3). An away liabilty, just like his shit manager. Did fuck all of any note.
Meireles (5). Shrank a bit in the face of the powerful Newcastle midfield of Barton, Nolan and Tiete. Let down by his useless partner.
Lucarse (4). Looked the worst midfielder on the pitch. Which is no coincidence, because he was. We badly need to get Meireles a new partner, this cunt's useless.
Kuyt (5). Extra point for the goal, but was poor again.

Eggnog (4). He's not very good. How he gets a game for LFC is beyond me.
Torres (4). Can be very good. Wasn't yesterday. One can understand his frustration playing under TWLMIH, and with hapless cunts like Lucas and Eggnog, but it's when we need Torres the most that he can often frustrate.

Budgie (0). What more evidence do Henry and co need? He wa sthe worst possible appointment and he's making things worse. Get the FUCK OUT of my club, you doddering old cunt.
[/quote]

Two things:
1 - "Lucas was the worst midfielder on the pitch" yet he got a higher rating from you than Maxi? Good one.
2 - Please please don't use "TWLMIH" repeatedly. I implore you.
[/quote]

Clarification: worst central midfielder on the pitch. Which he was. By a mile. Again.

 

[Delinquent]

[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=43138.msg1232791#msg1232791 date=1292232274]
Agger is stronger in the air than Skrtel. But he is not strong enough to handle Carroll on his own. But he didn't have to, he had Kyrgiakos for support. Considering that i think Agger/Kyrgiakos would have faired much better than Skrtel/Kyrgiakos.
[/quote]

Agger isn't stronger in the air than Skrtel. If anything, Skrtel is slightly the stronger in that department. Skrtel had an absolute mare, so of course it's very easy to say that Agger would have been better than him. Yet I've seen Agger regularly outjumped and outmuscled by much less imposing strikers than Carrol. That said, it's swings and roundabouts really, since neither one of them is particularly good in their own penalty area.

And any partnership we field without Carragher in it seems to forget the very basics of defending.

 

[TheBunnyman]

[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=43138.msg1232814#msg1232814 date=1292235067]
[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=43138.msg1232791#msg1232791 date=1292232274]
Agger is stronger in the air than Skrtel. But he is not strong enough to handle Carroll on his own. But he didn't have to, he had Kyrgiakos for support. Considering that i think Agger/Kyrgiakos would have faired much better than Skrtel/Kyrgiakos.
[/quote]

Agger isn't stronger in the air than Skrtel. If anything, Skrtel is slightly the stronger in that department. Skrtel had an absolute mare, so of course it's very easy to say that Agger would have been better than him. Yet I've seen Agger regularly outjumped and outmuscled by much less imposing strikers than Carrol. That said, it's swings and roundabouts really, since neither one of them is particularly good in their own penalty area.

And any partnership we field without Carragher in it seems to forget the very basics of defending.


[/quote]

I'm not disagreeing about our CBs, but let's be fair - Carroll is exceptionally good in the air. Sami might have dealt with him, but not many others could.

 

[Delinquent]

I agree Bunny. I wasn't downplaying Carroll's presence. He's a beast. Which is precisely why I think suggestions that Agger would have fared better are misguided. Like I said, Agger has struggled with much more manageable strikers than Carroll. The defending all round was shit yesterday though, from the training ground routine (which was a carbon copy of a recent Newcastle free kick, yet seemed to take all of our defenders by surprise), to the comedy of errors that led to their second.

 

[the_khl]

I'm not for one moment kidding myself thinking Agger would've done better than Skrtel against a big man like Carroll when it comes to the physical one on ones.

My criticism of Skrtel has never been about his physical stature much more his poor use of it.

Apart from the first goal - where Skrtel wasn't bullied from the ball mind but simply mistiming his jump - his worst moments came from one-on-one situations against less physical adjust players than Carroll why I don't quite understand the; everyone bar Sami would've had a mare-comments.

I don't think I can recall seeing a Liverpool-defender glancing so stubbornly at the ball, all the time, as Skrtel does often without noticing the movements made by opponents around him. The first goal was a good example of this and so were several other chances squandered by Newcastle where Skrtel simply found himself out of position down him not making himself aware of the opponents. The result thereof is stupidly bad positioning again and again. Carra for one had been all over Carroll instead of aiming a jump aimlessly at the ball for the first goal for startes. Just like he were with Crouch against Spurs. Because he's a great defender.

For me this comes down to a severe lack of understanding of the game on Skrtels behalf I'm affraid and I'm not basing my comments solely on Saturdays game as everyone can have a mare really (and often has when it comes to Liverpool-players these days). I'm just of the opinion that Skrtel simply hasn't got the talent/footballing intelligence to be playing week in week out for a club like Liverpool and I reckon he's proved this more than once of late.

Agger is sadly perma-injured so he wouldn't have done better of course but to say that a fit Agger would've made as big a mess out this game like ol Skittles last night is pretty outthere. Actually it's most certainly wrong. In my opinion.

Anwyays Skrtel isn't quite good enough, Agger is unrelaiable, Carra isn't getting any younger and Kyrgiakos is honestly not one to be trusted to play week in week out either.

We've got a real challenge on our hands here but for starters it would be nice if Agger could actually stay fit for a longer period of time. We really need him now.

 

[the_khl]

[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=43138.msg1232826#msg1232826 date=1292236222]
I agree Bunny. I wasn't downplaying Carroll's presence. He's a beast. Which is precisely why I think suggestions that Agger would have fared better are misguided. Like I said, Agger has struggled with much more manageable strikers than Carroll. The defending all round was shit yesterday though, from the training ground routine (which was a carbon copy of a recent Newcastle free kick, yet seemed to take all of our defenders by surprise), to the comedy of errors that led to their second.
[/quote]
Defending isn't all about the right stature mind. It's equally important to approach and position yourself in the right way. Agger's way better in that department than Skrtel and isn't anywhere near as rash either.

One of the reasons why a defender like Carra is such a splendid defender in my opinion is that he can keep even the biggest lads quiet for almost the full 90 minutes as he's a clever player and mostly on top of situations. As in, he knows when to get physical and when to anticipate the opponents next move. Sami was/is brilliant in that department as well why he can still play at top level although he's got less pace than a snail with a pulled hamsting.

Anyways for me Skrtel's worst moments yesterday wasn't even when beeing bullied by Carroll why I reckon your argument is void.

 

[kingjulian]

[quote author=Brendan link=topic=43138.msg1232798#msg1232798 date=1292233216]

Meireles (5). Shrank a bit in the face of the powerful Newcastle midfield of Barton, Nolan and Tiete. Let down by his useless partner.

[/quote]

I don't know if you are being Sarcastic, but Barton, Nolan and Tiete is a good midfield. Barton and Nolan have proved in the premiership that they can play, and they have plenty of "power" in their play. Tiete just adds more mobility and physical presence to them.

Every time we come across a powerful and mobile midfield, Lucas has done his best Houdini impersonation. Meireles, while a good performer is not capable of going it alone against a powerful midfield either. So this is going to be a problem that will never be adressed so long as Lucas plays alongside Ming in the center.

 

[grjt]

[quote author=KHL link=topic=43138.msg1232856#msg1232856 date=1292239232]
I'm not for one moment kidding myself thinking Agger would've done better than Skrtel against a big man like Carroll when it comes to the physical one on ones.

My criticism of Skrtel has never been about his physical stature much more his poor use of it.

Apart from the first goal - where Skrtel wasn't bullied from the ball but simply mistimed his jump mind - his worst moments came from one-to-one situations against other players than Carroll why I don't quite understand the; everyone bar Sami would've had a mare-comments. I don't think I can recall seeing a Liverpool-defender glancing so stubbornly at the ball all the time as Skrtel without ever noticing the movement made by opponents around him. The first goal was a good example of this and so were several other chances squandered by Newcastle where Skrtel simply found himself out of position down him not making himself aware of the opponents. The result thereof is stupidly bad positioning again and again. Carra for one had been all over Carroll instead of aiming a jump aimlessly at the ball for the first goal for startes. Just like he were against Crouch against Spurs. Because he's a great defender.

For me this comes down to a severe lack of understanding of the game for Skrtels behalf I'm affraid and I'm not basing my comments solely on Saturdays game as everyone can have a mare really (and often has when it comes to Liverpool-players these days). I'm just of the opinion that Skrtel simply hasn't got the talent/footballing intelligence to be playing week in week out for a club like Liverpool and I reckon he's proved this more than once of late.

Agger is sadly perma-injured so he wouldn't have done better of course but to say that a fit Agger would've made as big a mess out this game like ol Skittles last night is pretty outthere. Actually it's most certainly wrong. In my opinion.

Anwyays Skrtel isn't quite good enough, Agger is unrelaiable, Carra isn't getting any younger and Kyrgiakos is honestly not one to be trusted to play week in week out either.

We've got a real challenge on our hands here but for starters it would be nice if Agger could actually stay fit for a longer period of time. We really need him now.
[/quote]

Completely agree with this - some excellent points. The nub for me is that Skrtel is not (and has never claimed to be) anything other than a physical CB; by which I mean he has no discernible touch, he's not a reader of the game, he's not a great man-marker and he certainly hasnt shown any leadership qualities. Pure an simple he's there for the physical confrontation. When he cant actually summon up the ability to compete for the ball (allied to the fact that he cant actually fucking head the ball) all your are left with is an atrocious football player.



Also, Tiote should probably be considered one of the bargain buys of the season.

 

[Wizardry]

[quote author=grjt link=topic=43138.msg1232873#msg1232873 date=1292242528]
[quote author=KHL link=topic=43138.msg1232856#msg1232856 date=1292239232]
I'm not for one moment kidding myself thinking Agger would've done better than Skrtel against a big man like Carroll when it comes to the physical one on ones.

My criticism of Skrtel has never been about his physical stature much more his poor use of it.

Apart from the first goal - where Skrtel wasn't bullied from the ball but simply mistimed his jump mind - his worst moments came from one-to-one situations against other players than Carroll why I don't quite understand the; everyone bar Sami would've had a mare-comments. I don't think I can recall seeing a Liverpool-defender glancing so stubbornly at the ball all the time as Skrtel without ever noticing the movement made by opponents around him. The first goal was a good example of this and so were several other chances squandered by Newcastle where Skrtel simply found himself out of position down him not making himself aware of the opponents. The result thereof is stupidly bad positioning again and again. Carra for one had been all over Carroll instead of aiming a jump aimlessly at the ball for the first goal for startes. Just like he were against Crouch against Spurs. Because he's a great defender.

For me this comes down to a severe lack of understanding of the game for Skrtels behalf I'm affraid and I'm not basing my comments solely on Saturdays game as everyone can have a mare really (and often has when it comes to Liverpool-players these days). I'm just of the opinion that Skrtel simply hasn't got the talent/footballing intelligence to be playing week in week out for a club like Liverpool and I reckon he's proved this more than once of late.

Agger is sadly perma-injured so he wouldn't have done better of course but to say that a fit Agger would've made as big a mess out this game like ol Skittles last night is pretty outthere. Actually it's most certainly wrong. In my opinion.

Anwyays Skrtel isn't quite good enough, Agger is unrelaiable, Carra isn't getting any younger and Kyrgiakos is honestly not one to be trusted to play week in week out either.

We've got a real challenge on our hands here but for starters it would be nice if Agger could actually stay fit for a longer period of time. We really need him now.
[/quote]

Completely agree with this - some excellent points. The nub for me is that Skrtel is not (and has never claimed to be) anything other than a physical CB; by which I mean he has no discernible touch, he's not a reader of the game, he's not a great man-marker and he certainly hasnt shown any leadership qualities. Pure an simple he's there for the physical confrontation. When he cant actually summon up the ability to compete for the ball (allied to the fact that he cant actually fucking head the ball) all your are left with is an atrocious football player.



Also, Tiote should probably be considered one of the bargain buys of the season.
[/quote]

Think KHL was either very tired or very upset when he wrote the post since it seemed the most disjointed post I've seen from him in memory.

Having said that and, while I do agree with many of the points made, I am in disagreement with a couple of things.

Skrtel did have problems with those other than Carrol but the point is those problems arose after Carrol had put the wind up both of them. Neither of our CB's looked capable of handling him and that left them both looking vulnerable and nervous which opened them up to other opponents.

Skrtel has never been - nor claimed to be - a great reader of the game which is why, IMO, he looked very good on the occasions he was played with Sami a couple of seasons ago. That way he got the direction from the best reader of the game we've had at the back in years and looked the better for it. Against the barcodes he didn't have that direction nor could he handle the physical side of the game which left him in tatters.

The reasons for mentioning Sami are that he would have stood a good chance of handling Carrol whereas, for all his supposed positional play and game intelligence, Agger would have fared little better than Skrtel with similar results; his overall game would have disintegrated - as we've seen happen in the past.

What we've seen demonstrated very clearly this season and for much of last season is our need for a replacement for Sami. I said it several years ago and I was just one of many; when Sami hangs up the boots we're going to have a huge hole to fill and it will likely take years to do so. Some thought Agger was the man but he never looked capable of having the arial dominance provided by the big Finn; Skrtel never read the game as well and didn't have the arial prowess either and neither does Carra for that matter; the Greek at least provided some hint at that arial ability but falls well short in reading the game.

As good as Carra is - and grjt is right that he has been excellent in this - there is only so much that his spirit can make up for. Eventually he can't make up the lost ability in the air or reading of the game. He's got another couple of years left, IMO and then we're going to be royally screwed if we haven't got some wonderful replacements coming through. At the moment we don't look likely to have a solid defence ever available until we can adequately replace Sami.

 

[grjt]

[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=43138.msg1232961#msg1232961 date=1292251019]
[quote author=grjt link=topic=43138.msg1232873#msg1232873 date=1292242528]
[quote author=KHL link=topic=43138.msg1232856#msg1232856 date=1292239232]
I'm not for one moment kidding myself thinking Agger would've done better than Skrtel against a big man like Carroll when it comes to the physical one on ones.

My criticism of Skrtel has never been about his physical stature much more his poor use of it.

Apart from the first goal - where Skrtel wasn't bullied from the ball but simply mistimed his jump mind - his worst moments came from one-to-one situations against other players than Carroll why I don't quite understand the; everyone bar Sami would've had a mare-comments. I don't think I can recall seeing a Liverpool-defender glancing so stubbornly at the ball all the time as Skrtel without ever noticing the movement made by opponents around him. The first goal was a good example of this and so were several other chances squandered by Newcastle where Skrtel simply found himself out of position down him not making himself aware of the opponents. The result thereof is stupidly bad positioning again and again. Carra for one had been all over Carroll instead of aiming a jump aimlessly at the ball for the first goal for startes. Just like he were against Crouch against Spurs. Because he's a great defender.

For me this comes down to a severe lack of understanding of the game for Skrtels behalf I'm affraid and I'm not basing my comments solely on Saturdays game as everyone can have a mare really (and often has when it comes to Liverpool-players these days). I'm just of the opinion that Skrtel simply hasn't got the talent/footballing intelligence to be playing week in week out for a club like Liverpool and I reckon he's proved this more than once of late.

Agger is sadly perma-injured so he wouldn't have done better of course but to say that a fit Agger would've made as big a mess out this game like ol Skittles last night is pretty outthere. Actually it's most certainly wrong. In my opinion.

Anwyays Skrtel isn't quite good enough, Agger is unrelaiable, Carra isn't getting any younger and Kyrgiakos is honestly not one to be trusted to play week in week out either.

We've got a real challenge on our hands here but for starters it would be nice if Agger could actually stay fit for a longer period of time. We really need him now.
[/quote]

Completely agree with this - some excellent points. The nub for me is that Skrtel is not (and has never claimed to be) anything other than a physical CB; by which I mean he has no discernible touch, he's not a reader of the game, he's not a great man-marker and he certainly hasnt shown any leadership qualities. Pure an simple he's there for the physical confrontation. When he cant actually summon up the ability to compete for the ball (allied to the fact that he cant actually fucking head the ball) all your are left with is an atrocious football player.



Also, Tiote should probably be considered one of the bargain buys of the season.
[/quote]

Think KHL was either very tired or very upset when he wrote the post since it seemed the most disjointed post I've seen from him in memory.

Having said that and, while I do agree with many of the points made, I am in disagreement with a couple of things.

Skrtel did have problems with those other than Carrol but the point is those problems arose after Carrol had put the wind up both of them. Neither of our CB's looked capable of handling him and that left them both looking vulnerable and nervous which opened them up to other opponents.

Skrtel has never been - nor claimed to be - a great reader of the game which is why, IMO, he looked very good on the occasions he was played with Sami a couple of seasons ago. That way he got the direction from the best reader of the game we've had at the back in years and looked the better for it. Against the barcodes he didn't have that direction nor could he handle the physical side of the game which left him in tatters.

The reasons for mentioning Sami are that he would have stood a good chance of handling Carrol whereas, for all his supposed positional play and game intelligence, Agger would have fared little better than Skrtel with similar results; his overall game would have disintegrated - as we've seen happen in the past.

What we've seen demonstrated very clearly this season and for much of last season is our need for a replacement for Sami. I said it several years ago and I was just one of many; when Sami hangs up the boots we're going to have a huge hole to fill and it will likely take years to do so. Some thought Agger was the man but he never looked capable of having the arial dominance provided by the big Finn; Skrtel never read the game as well and didn't have the arial prowess either and neither does Carra for that matter; the Greek at least provided some hint at that arial ability but falls well short in reading the game.

As good as Carra is - and grjt is right that he has been excellent in this - there is only so much that his spirit can make up for. Eventually he can't make up the lost ability in the air or reading of the game. He's got another couple of years left, IMO and then we're going to be royally screwed if we haven't got some wonderful replacements coming through. At the moment we don't look likely to have a solid defence ever available until we can adequately replace Sami.
[/quote]

Slightly harsh Wiz, I got the gist of what KHL was getting at, and agree with him. However, you too make some good points (see I'm in the Christmas spirit!). We have the same story all over the pitch players that arent the worst, but who have fatal flaws that clearly show up when the team isnt playing well, and they arent in form (also, its pretty hard to defend a player who has very little ability, a fundamental inability to head the ball, and now seems to be lacking application).

I'd be pretty happy with a Hangeland or a Wheater right about now.

 

[the_khl]

[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=43138.msg1232961#msg1232961 date=1292251019]
[quote author=grjt link=topic=43138.msg1232873#msg1232873 date=1292242528]
[quote author=KHL link=topic=43138.msg1232856#msg1232856 date=1292239232]
I'm not for one moment kidding myself thinking Agger would've done better than Skrtel against a big man like Carroll when it comes to the physical one on ones.

My criticism of Skrtel has never been about his physical stature much more his poor use of it.

Apart from the first goal - where Skrtel wasn't bullied from the ball but simply mistimed his jump mind - his worst moments came from one-to-one situations against other players than Carroll why I don't quite understand the; everyone bar Sami would've had a mare-comments. I don't think I can recall seeing a Liverpool-defender glancing so stubbornly at the ball all the time as Skrtel without ever noticing the movement made by opponents around him. The first goal was a good example of this and so were several other chances squandered by Newcastle where Skrtel simply found himself out of position down him not making himself aware of the opponents. The result thereof is stupidly bad positioning again and again. Carra for one had been all over Carroll instead of aiming a jump aimlessly at the ball for the first goal for startes. Just like he were against Crouch against Spurs. Because he's a great defender.

For me this comes down to a severe lack of understanding of the game for Skrtels behalf I'm affraid and I'm not basing my comments solely on Saturdays game as everyone can have a mare really (and often has when it comes to Liverpool-players these days). I'm just of the opinion that Skrtel simply hasn't got the talent/footballing intelligence to be playing week in week out for a club like Liverpool and I reckon he's proved this more than once of late.

Agger is sadly perma-injured so he wouldn't have done better of course but to say that a fit Agger would've made as big a mess out this game like ol Skittles last night is pretty outthere. Actually it's most certainly wrong. In my opinion.

Anwyays Skrtel isn't quite good enough, Agger is unrelaiable, Carra isn't getting any younger and Kyrgiakos is honestly not one to be trusted to play week in week out either.

We've got a real challenge on our hands here but for starters it would be nice if Agger could actually stay fit for a longer period of time. We really need him now.
[/quote]

Completely agree with this - some excellent points. The nub for me is that Skrtel is not (and has never claimed to be) anything other than a physical CB; by which I mean he has no discernible touch, he's not a reader of the game, he's not a great man-marker and he certainly hasnt shown any leadership qualities. Pure an simple he's there for the physical confrontation. When he cant actually summon up the ability to compete for the ball (allied to the fact that he cant actually fucking head the ball) all your are left with is an atrocious football player.



Also, Tiote should probably be considered one of the bargain buys of the season.
[/quote]

Think KHL was either very tired or very upset when he wrote the post since it seemed the most disjointed post I've seen from him in memory.

Having said that and, while I do agree with many of the points made, I am in disagreement with a couple of things.

Skrtel did have problems with those other than Carrol but the point is those problems arose after Carrol had put the wind up both of them. Neither of our CB's looked capable of handling him and that left them both looking vulnerable and nervous which opened them up to other opponents.

Skrtel has never been - nor claimed to be - a great reader of the game which is why, IMO, he looked very good on the occasions he was played with Sami a couple of seasons ago. That way he got the direction from the best reader of the game we've had at the back in years and looked the better for it. Against the barcodes he didn't have that direction nor could he handle the physical side of the game which left him in tatters.
The reasons for mentioning Sami are that he would have stood a good chance of handling Carrol whereas, for all his supposed positional play and game intelligence, Agger would have fared little better than Skrtel with similar results; his overall game would have disintegrated - as we've seen happen in the past.

What we've seen demonstrated very clearly this season and for much of last season is our need for a replacement for Sami. I said it several years ago and I was just one of many; when Sami hangs up the boots we're going to have a huge hole to fill and it will likely take years to do so. Some thought Agger was the man but he never looked capable of having the arial dominance provided by the big Finn; Skrtel never read the game as well and didn't have the arial prowess either and neither does Carra for that matter; the Greek at least provided some hint at that arial ability but falls well short in reading the game.

As good as Carra is - and grjt is right that he has been excellent in this - there is only so much that his spirit can make up for. Eventually he can't make up the lost ability in the air or reading of the game. He's got another couple of years left, IMO and then we're going to be royally screwed if we haven't got some wonderful replacements coming through. At the moment we don't look likely to have a solid defence ever available until we can adequately replace Sami.
[/quote]
I've edited a bit in my initial post earlier today as it was quite (and still is probably) confusing. Not upset at all though but it was a rather hefty Christmas lunch on Saturday. Still taking it's toll I reckon.

Anyways back to topic. The bit in bold is easily underlining why I don't think Skrtel's never been nor will be good enough to play at a club of Liverpools (supposed) standards. He needs a babysitter far to often.

His often complete lack of understanding of the game is demanding too much of his partner whether it'll be Carra, Agger or Sami. We've seen Carra on numerous occasions mouthing him off if not head-butting him due to this apparent lack of flair and when he's then partnering Kyrgiakos against decent strikers his flaws are exposed even more so.

He's actually quite decent on the ball at times and this has confused me a bit when trying to judge him overall. Fact of the matter is he looks hard as nails but isn't and he's far to often bullied. He's more elegant on the ball at times than you'd think but no-more so than say Agger who's easily the better of the two in that department. When fit.

I agree with your overall sentiment though we really need a new, strong, demanding presence in the back. At least untill we know for sure that Agger's fit enough to play 40 games a Season. And that day will probably never come sadly.

 

[Wizardry]

[quote author=KHL link=topic=43138.msg1232991#msg1232991 date=1292253418]
[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=43138.msg1232961#msg1232961 date=1292251019]
[quote author=grjt link=topic=43138.msg1232873#msg1232873 date=1292242528]
[quote author=KHL link=topic=43138.msg1232856#msg1232856 date=1292239232]
I'm not for one moment kidding myself thinking Agger would've done better than Skrtel against a big man like Carroll when it comes to the physical one on ones.

My criticism of Skrtel has never been about his physical stature much more his poor use of it.

Apart from the first goal - where Skrtel wasn't bullied from the ball but simply mistimed his jump mind - his worst moments came from one-to-one situations against other players than Carroll why I don't quite understand the; everyone bar Sami would've had a mare-comments. I don't think I can recall seeing a Liverpool-defender glancing so stubbornly at the ball all the time as Skrtel without ever noticing the movement made by opponents around him. The first goal was a good example of this and so were several other chances squandered by Newcastle where Skrtel simply found himself out of position down him not making himself aware of the opponents. The result thereof is stupidly bad positioning again and again. Carra for one had been all over Carroll instead of aiming a jump aimlessly at the ball for the first goal for startes. Just like he were against Crouch against Spurs. Because he's a great defender.

For me this comes down to a severe lack of understanding of the game for Skrtels behalf I'm affraid and I'm not basing my comments solely on Saturdays game as everyone can have a mare really (and often has when it comes to Liverpool-players these days). I'm just of the opinion that Skrtel simply hasn't got the talent/footballing intelligence to be playing week in week out for a club like Liverpool and I reckon he's proved this more than once of late.

Agger is sadly perma-injured so he wouldn't have done better of course but to say that a fit Agger would've made as big a mess out this game like ol Skittles last night is pretty outthere. Actually it's most certainly wrong. In my opinion.

Anwyays Skrtel isn't quite good enough, Agger is unrelaiable, Carra isn't getting any younger and Kyrgiakos is honestly not one to be trusted to play week in week out either.

We've got a real challenge on our hands here but for starters it would be nice if Agger could actually stay fit for a longer period of time. We really need him now.
[/quote]

Completely agree with this - some excellent points. The nub for me is that Skrtel is not (and has never claimed to be) anything other than a physical CB; by which I mean he has no discernible touch, he's not a reader of the game, he's not a great man-marker and he certainly hasnt shown any leadership qualities. Pure an simple he's there for the physical confrontation. When he cant actually summon up the ability to compete for the ball (allied to the fact that he cant actually fucking head the ball) all your are left with is an atrocious football player.



Also, Tiote should probably be considered one of the bargain buys of the season.
[/quote]

Think KHL was either very tired or very upset when he wrote the post since it seemed the most disjointed post I've seen from him in memory.

Having said that and, while I do agree with many of the points made, I am in disagreement with a couple of things.

Skrtel did have problems with those other than Carrol but the point is those problems arose after Carrol had put the wind up both of them. Neither of our CB's looked capable of handling him and that left them both looking vulnerable and nervous which opened them up to other opponents.

Skrtel has never been - nor claimed to be - a great reader of the game which is why, IMO, he looked very good on the occasions he was played with Sami a couple of seasons ago. That way he got the direction from the best reader of the game we've had at the back in years and looked the better for it. Against the barcodes he didn't have that direction nor could he handle the physical side of the game which left him in tatters.
The reasons for mentioning Sami are that he would have stood a good chance of handling Carrol whereas, for all his supposed positional play and game intelligence, Agger would have fared little better than Skrtel with similar results; his overall game would have disintegrated - as we've seen happen in the past.

What we've seen demonstrated very clearly this season and for much of last season is our need for a replacement for Sami. I said it several years ago and I was just one of many; when Sami hangs up the boots we're going to have a huge hole to fill and it will likely take years to do so. Some thought Agger was the man but he never looked capable of having the arial dominance provided by the big Finn; Skrtel never read the game as well and didn't have the arial prowess either and neither does Carra for that matter; the Greek at least provided some hint at that arial ability but falls well short in reading the game.

As good as Carra is - and grjt is right that he has been excellent in this - there is only so much that his spirit can make up for. Eventually he can't make up the lost ability in the air or reading of the game. He's got another couple of years left, IMO and then we're going to be royally screwed if we haven't got some wonderful replacements coming through. At the moment we don't look likely to have a solid defence ever available until we can adequately replace Sami.
[/quote]
I've edited a bit in my initial post earlier today as it was quite (and still is probably) confusing. Not upset at all though but it was a rather hefty Christmas lunch on Saturday. Still taking it's toll I reckon.

Anyways back to topic. The bit in bold is easily underlining why I don't think Skrtel's never been nor will be good enough to play at a club of Liverpools (supposed) standards. He needs a babysitter far to often.

His often complete lack of understanding of the game is demanding too much of his partner whether it'll be Carra, Agger or Sami. We've seen Carra on numerous occasions mouthing him off if not head-butting him due to this apparent lack of flair and when he's then partnering Kyrgiakos against decent strikers his flaws are exposed even more so.

He's actually quite decent on the ball at times and this has confused me a bit when trying to judge him overall. Fact of the matter is he looks hard as nails but isn't and he's far to often bullied. He's more elegant on the ball at times than you'd think but no-more so than say Agger who's easily the better of the two in that department. When fit.

I agree with your overall sentiment though we really need a new, strong, demanding presence in the back. At least untill we know for sure that Agger's fit enough to play 40 games a Season. And that day will probably never come sadly.
[/quote]

Not to reopen old wounds mate, but, Agger is never going to be the dominant presence we need whether he's 100% fit for the rest of his career or not. He will look elegant and his positioning, though suspect at times, is far better than Skrtel. A Sami replacement, however - never.

For grjt - Hangeland would have been a great signing. I was desperate for us to sign him as Sami was being moved out; he'd have done well with Carra and would have been a very complimentary partner for Agger, IMO, in the future.

Plenty were saying that young Wilson was the new Sami but I'm still waiting to see the evidence.

Hangeland

 

[Judge Jules]

Skrtel played like a puppet with its strings cut in that game, but the physical side of his performance was NOT typical of his usual standard. Just ask Didier Dogbreath if you don't believe me. Nobody's ever bullied him like Skrtel has.

 

[the_khl]

@Wiz

I completely agree that Agger will never be a Sami replacement. I don't think I've ever suggested he would rather the contrary actually, why I've been advocating us to sign the likes of Hangeland and Kjaer as soon as it was apparent Sami was leaving.

 

[Buddha]

[quote author=KHL link=topic=43138.msg1233364#msg1233364 date=1292322989]
@Wiz

I completely agree that Agger will never be a Sami replacement. I don't think I've ever suggested he would rather the contrary actually, why I've been advocating us to sign the likes of Hangeland and Kjaer as soon as it was apparent Sami was leaving.
[/quote]

..and you were spot on.

 

[the_khl]

[quote author=Buddha link=topic=43138.msg1233377#msg1233377 date=1292326652]
[quote author=KHL link=topic=43138.msg1233364#msg1233364 date=1292322989]
@Wiz

I completely agree that Agger will never be a Sami replacement. I don't think I've ever suggested he would rather the contrary actually, why I've been advocating us to sign the likes of Hangeland and Kjaer as soon as it was apparent Sami was leaving.
[/quote]

..and you were spot on.
[/quote]
To be honest Kyrgiakos has got the job done now and then but he's so extremely cumbersome in movement that he's often let us down as well, and quite honestly he's not one for the future. A cheap stop gap, and one of the best marginal signings we've made in years really but we've been in need for a top talented strong defender ever since Sami left.

I reckon we just haven't got the money needed untill now.