Rafa: 'Fine-Tuning needed, not an overhaul'

[foureyes]

[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=33626.msg871258#msg871258 date=1242819879]
[quote author=foureyes link=topic=33626.msg871251#msg871251 date=1242819403]
[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=33626.msg871238#msg871238 date=1242818424]
[quote author=foureyes link=topic=33626.msg871222#msg871222 date=1242818026]
[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=33626.msg871155#msg871155 date=1242814836]
[quote author=foureyes link=topic=33626.msg871143#msg871143 date=1242814341]
Finnan and Riise were better then than our current full backs are now. The point was that he inherited a shite squad. He didn't.

Of course, it was not as good as Utd's, and so of course it would take more money to fix, but not to the degree that Rafa can constantly call on it as an excuse. He's had plenty to spend. Fact.
[/quote]

We're just going to have to disagree on this one mate. You think that spending slightly less that United since he's been here means we should have overtaken them and won the league. I can't for the life of me see the logic in it. So moving on ...........
[/quote]

Can you show me where I said that, mate?

All I have pointed out is that Rafa would have us believe that he has been some sort of pauper in the transfer market and that he's had tens of millions of pounds less to spend than Fergie. It's bollocks. The figures don't lie. Now, we can sit and debate whether the squad he inherited was crap or not, or whether he had spent the money wisely or not for hours. But what can't be ignored is the fact that Rafa has had plenty to spend, and certainly hasn't been as far behind Utd in the spending stakes as he would have us believe. That was my original point. If you disagree, then you'll have to show me the figures that show how he is so far behind Fergie in the spending stakes. Good luck with that one...
[/quote]

It was the figures from the link you posted to The Times. Can't remember offhand but something like United 220M to Liverpool 212M . Maybe you were pointing out something else in the article ? I didn't read through the whole thing.

For the rest I thought I was clear that IMO equal spending doesn't equal parity on the field when you are playing catch up !
[/quote]

Yeh, but where have I said that I think we should be overtaking them and winning the league as you suggested? I haven't.

All I have been saying is that Rafa has not been quite as skint as he makes out. He bangs on about how Utd have all these players worth tens of millions of pounds and makes out as though he's been a pauper in the transfer market. It's a worn, lame excuse.

His gross spend is only £9 mill behind. I know net spend is important, but gross spend is what he has actually gone out and spent on players. He's had only £9 mill less than Fergie to spend on players but has spent it differently.
[/quote]

How can you not get that differently is because United had a 50 yd start in a 100 yd race ?

As to where you said we should be overtaking them - (your quote) :-

Rafa has had plenty to spend. Net or gross, whichever way you look at it, he's spent about the same as Fergie. Froggy, all those figures show is that Fergie has bought more expensive players but less of them, whilst Rafa has done the opposite.

This whole money issue has been done to death. Rafa has been backed to the point that he really should not be using money as an excuse.

What else can be concluded from that statement ? Should he have another more valid reason for not winning the league?

The only reason that excuse is used is because people, similar to your good self, are saying that he has had enough money so should be delivering the title by now. I still wish he would shut up though.

[/quote]

What? I still don't see what you're getting at. Where have I said that I should be overtaking them and winning the league? I haven't. Show me where I have.

All I have said is that lack of financial backing is not a good enough excuse. How about he just accepts that he has bought poorly, made strange tactical decisions, not been aggressive enough in the way we play up until now etc etc etc.... There are many reasons as to why we haven't won the league, but to constantly blame lack of funds is bollocks.

Now how do you get from that to me saying that I expect him to be winning the league after having spent less than Fergie?

 

[Avmenon]

No, thats not people are saying, Froggy.

The Scum had a stronger team when Rafa came, so even if Rafa's spending exactly matched the Scum we probably still wouldnt have had equally strong teams.

What I think people are saying is that Rafa did spend a lot of money, but much of it poorly.

 

[foureyes]

[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=33626.msg871261#msg871261 date=1242820129]
Foureyes - looking through your replies to others it seems (to me) that your statement on Rafa's spending says one thing and the implication (to me) seems clear - however your opinion is maybe somewhat different ?

That is difficult to reconcile !
[/quote]

I think you've interpreted them in your own way mate. I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that you did, but it's clearly not what I have been saying!

 

[Frogfish]

What? I still don't see what you're getting at. Where have I said that I should be overtaking them and winning the league? I haven't. Show me where I have.

All I have said is that lack of financial backing is not a good enough excuse. How about he just accepts that he has bought poorly, made strange tactical decisions, not been aggressive enough in the way we play up until now etc etc etc.... There are many reasons as to why we haven't won the league, but to constantly blame lack of funds is bollocks.

Now how do you get from that to me saying that I expect him to be winning the league after having spent less than Fergie?

You say he has had enough money ? Money for what ? To create a title winning team ? That is what you meant right ? That unequivically implies we have had enough money to win the league.

There may be other equally valid reasons (negative, safety first, tactics or Torres & Gerrard's injuries) that could have got us closer, maybe even won it for us, this season, however we all know our squad is not as strong as United's and ultimately if we are going to win the league then we need a stronger squad or (as didn't happen this season) all the dice to fall for us.

Conclusion ? Not enough money, yet.

 

[Frogfish]

[quote author=foureyes link=topic=33626.msg871266#msg871266 date=1242820298]
[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=33626.msg871261#msg871261 date=1242820129]
Foureyes - looking through your replies to others it seems (to me) that your statement on Rafa's spending says one thing and the implication (to me) seems clear - however your opinion is maybe somewhat different ?

That is difficult to reconcile !
[/quote]

I think you've interpreted them in your own way mate. I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that you did, but it's clearly not what I have been saying!
[/quote]

Well clearly is not the term I'd use ! As I said one thing seems to imply the other but I accept it's not what you meant and I went off half-cocked !

Apologies !

 

[rage]

money had nothing to do with why we fucked up this season. buying the wrong players did

 

[Frogfish]

[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=33626.msg871265#msg871265 date=1242820279]
No, thats not people are saying, Froggy.

The Scum had a stronger team when Rafa came, so even if Rafa's spending exactly matched the Scum we probably still wouldnt have had equally strong teams.

What I think people are saying is that Rafa did spend a lot of money, but much of it poorly.
[/quote]

Well that's exactly what I said Avy. Except that some people (on and off this site) are saying he's already had enough - that implies something rather different. Enough for what exactly ? To catch United ? Here we go again, Catch 22.

 

[Frogfish]

[quote author=rage link=topic=33626.msg871278#msg871278 date=1242821105]
money had nothing to do with why we fucked up this season. buying the wrong players did
[/quote]

As ALL managers do.

 

[foureyes]

[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=33626.msg871273#msg871273 date=1242820794]

What? I still don't see what you're getting at. Where have I said that I should be overtaking them and winning the league? I haven't. Show me where I have.

All I have said is that lack of financial backing is not a good enough excuse. How about he just accepts that he has bought poorly, made strange tactical decisions, not been aggressive enough in the way we play up until now etc etc etc.... There are many reasons as to why we haven't won the league, but to constantly blame lack of funds is bollocks.

Now how do you get from that to me saying that I expect him to be winning the league after having spent less than Fergie?

You say he has had enough money ? Money for what ? To create a title winning team ? That is what you meant right ? That unequivically implies we have had enough money to win the league.

There may be other equally valid reasons (negative, safety first, tactics or Torres & Gerrard's injuries) that could have got us closer, maybe even won it for us, this season, however we all know our squad is not as strong as United's and ultimately if we are going to win the league then we need a stronger squad or (as didn't happen this season) all the dice to fall for us.

Conclusion ? Not enough money, yet.
[/quote]

Froggy, I think you're actually starting to make my posts up for me. Again, just where have I said that he has had enough money? Or where have I implied that he has had enough money to win the league?

 

[Frogfish]

[quote author=foureyes link=topic=33626.msg871281#msg871281 date=1242821436]
[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=33626.msg871273#msg871273 date=1242820794]

What? I still don't see what you're getting at. Where have I said that I should be overtaking them and winning the league? I haven't. Show me where I have.

All I have said is that lack of financial backing is not a good enough excuse. How about he just accepts that he has bought poorly, made strange tactical decisions, not been aggressive enough in the way we play up until now etc etc etc.... There are many reasons as to why we haven't won the league, but to constantly blame lack of funds is bollocks.

Now how do you get from that to me saying that I expect him to be winning the league after having spent less than Fergie?

You say he has had enough money ? Money for what ? To create a title winning team ? That is what you meant right ? That unequivically implies we have had enough money to win the league.

There may be other equally valid reasons (negative, safety first, tactics or Torres & Gerrard's injuries) that could have got us closer, maybe even won it for us, this season, however we all know our squad is not as strong as United's and ultimately if we are going to win the league then we need a stronger squad or (as didn't happen this season) all the dice to fall for us.

Conclusion ? Not enough money, yet.
[/quote]

Froggy, I think you're actually starting to make my posts up for me. Again, just where have I said that he has had enough money? Or where have I implied that he has had enough money to win the league?
[/quote]

*sighs* I could trawl through 2 pages but this is just one quote on this page :

There are many reasons as to why we haven't won the league, but to constantly blame lack of funds is bollocks.

It seems I am misinterpreting your intention - but from your posts it's not exactly clear cut ! IMHO 😉

 

[foureyes]

[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=33626.msg871275#msg871275 date=1242820956]
[quote author=foureyes link=topic=33626.msg871266#msg871266 date=1242820298]
[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=33626.msg871261#msg871261 date=1242820129]
Foureyes - looking through your replies to others it seems (to me) that your statement on Rafa's spending says one thing and the implication (to me) seems clear - however your opinion is maybe somewhat different ?

That is difficult to reconcile !
[/quote]

I think you've interpreted them in your own way mate. I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that you did, but it's clearly not what I have been saying!
[/quote]

Well clearly is not the term I'd use ! As I said one thing seems to imply the other but I accept it's not what you meant and I went off half-cocked !

Apologies !
[/quote]


These are all quotes from this thread. I don't see how I could have been any clearer. No need to apologise dude, it's cool.

"Rafa has been backed to the point that he really should not be using money as an excuse."

"He's hardly been skint to the point that he can use lack of funds as an excuse. "

"
Again, i'm not saying that Rafa has had more to spend than Fergie, but that he hasn't been quite as skint as he'd have you believe, and certainly not to the point that he should constantly whip up the same old excuse about lack of money."

"I'm not questioning Rafa's track record, just his claims that he's not had anywhere near what Utd have had to spend."

"All I have pointed out is that Rafa would have us believe that he has been some sort of pauper in the transfer market and that he's had tens of millions of pounds less to spend than Fergie."

 

[foureyes]

[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=33626.msg871285#msg871285 date=1242821678]
[quote author=foureyes link=topic=33626.msg871281#msg871281 date=1242821436]
[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=33626.msg871273#msg871273 date=1242820794]

What? I still don't see what you're getting at. Where have I said that I should be overtaking them and winning the league? I haven't. Show me where I have.

All I have said is that lack of financial backing is not a good enough excuse. How about he just accepts that he has bought poorly, made strange tactical decisions, not been aggressive enough in the way we play up until now etc etc etc.... There are many reasons as to why we haven't won the league, but to constantly blame lack of funds is bollocks.

Now how do you get from that to me saying that I expect him to be winning the league after having spent less than Fergie?

You say he has had enough money ? Money for what ? To create a title winning team ?  That is what you meant right ?  That unequivically implies we have had enough money to win the league.

There may be other equally valid reasons (negative, safety first, tactics or Torres & Gerrard's injuries) that could have got us closer, maybe even won it for us, this season, however we all know our squad is not as strong as United's and ultimately if we are going to win the league then we need a stronger squad or (as didn't happen this season) all the dice to fall for us.

Conclusion ? Not enough money, yet.
[/quote]

Froggy, I think you're actually starting to make my posts up for me. Again, just where have I said that he has had enough money? Or where have I implied that he has had enough money to win the league?
[/quote]

*sighs*  I could trawl through 2 pages but this is just one quote on this page :

There are many reasons as to why we haven't won the league, but to constantly blame lack of funds is bollocks.

It seems I am misinterpreting your intention - but from your posts it's not exactly clear cut !  IMHO  😉
[/quote]

And how does that say that I think he's had enough money to win the league? It doesn't. At all. I think he's had enough money to be able to compete but I feel that Rafa should not constantly keep pointing to lack of funds as the reason for not winning the league and should maybe accept that there are other reasons too, many of which are to do with him.

 

[rage]

[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=33626.msg871280#msg871280 date=1242821196]
[quote author=rage link=topic=33626.msg871278#msg871278 date=1242821105]
money had nothing to do with why we fucked up this season. buying the wrong players did
[/quote]

As ALL managers do.
[/quote]

agreed. so this season wasn't about lack of money

 

[Frogfish]

[quote author=foureyes link=topic=33626.msg871293#msg871293 date=1242821969]
[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=33626.msg871285#msg871285 date=1242821678]

*sighs* I could trawl through 2 pages but this is just one quote on this page :

There are many reasons as to why we haven't won the league, but to constantly blame lack of funds is bollocks.

It seems I am misinterpreting your intention - but from your posts it's not exactly clear cut ! IMHO 😉
[/quote]

And how does that say that I think he's had enough money to win the league? It doesn't. At all. It simply states that Rafa should not constantly keep pointing to lack of funds as the reason for not winning the league and should maybe accept that there are other reasons too, many of which are to do with him.
[/quote]

Mate if you can reconcile those two highlighted statements without drawing the conclusion I did then you are a better man than me !

I accept your intention was different to my interpretation - now since we've absolutely murdered this thread let's leave it there shall we ?

*offers hand with a smile*

 

[foureyes]

[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=33626.msg871302#msg871302 date=1242822273]
[quote author=foureyes link=topic=33626.msg871293#msg871293 date=1242821969]
[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=33626.msg871285#msg871285 date=1242821678]

*sighs* I could trawl through 2 pages but this is just one quote on this page :

There are many reasons as to why we haven't won the league, but to constantly blame lack of funds is bollocks.

It seems I am misinterpreting your intention - but from your posts it's not exactly clear cut ! IMHO 😉
[/quote]

And how does that say that I think he's had enough money to win the league? It doesn't. At all. It simply states that Rafa should not constantly keep pointing to lack of funds as the reason for not winning the league and should maybe accept that there are other reasons too, many of which are to do with him.
[/quote]

Mate if you can reconcile those two highlighted statements without drawing the conclusion I did then you are a better man than me !

I accept your intention was different to my interpretation - now since we've absolutely murdered this thread let's leave it there shall we ?

*offers hand with a smile*
[/quote]

It's simple, Froggy. There are lots of reasons we missed out on the title this year, but Rafa simply constantly bangs on about lack of funds. I don't see how that says that I feel that Rafa has had enough money to win the league. That's up for debate, but it's not what I said.

 

[Frogfish]

Foureyes - PM'd you.

Different subject !!!

 

[Frogfish]

[quote author=foureyes link=topic=33626.msg871310#msg871310 date=1242823216]
[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=33626.msg871302#msg871302 date=1242822273]
[quote author=foureyes link=topic=33626.msg871293#msg871293 date=1242821969]
[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=33626.msg871285#msg871285 date=1242821678]

*sighs* I could trawl through 2 pages but this is just one quote on this page :

There are many reasons as to why we haven't won the league, but to constantly blame lack of funds is bollocks.

It seems I am misinterpreting your intention - but from your posts it's not exactly clear cut ! IMHO 😉
[/quote]

And how does that say that I think he's had enough money to win the league? It doesn't. At all. It simply states that Rafa should not constantly keep pointing to lack of funds as the reason for not winning the league and should maybe accept that there are other reasons too, many of which are to do with him.
[/quote]

Mate if you can reconcile those two highlighted statements without drawing the conclusion I did then you are a better man than me !

I accept your intention was different to my interpretation - now since we've absolutely murdered this thread let's leave it there shall we ?

*offers hand with a smile*
[/quote]

It's simple, Froggy. There are lots of reasons we missed out on the title this year, but Rafa simply constantly bangs on about lack of funds. I don't see how that says that I feel that Rafa has had enough money to win the league. That's up for debate, but it's not what I said.
[/quote]

I happen to agree with that - but funds are still an issue if we to be there every season.

 

[foureyes]

[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=33626.msg871313#msg871313 date=1242823445]
[quote author=foureyes link=topic=33626.msg871310#msg871310 date=1242823216]
[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=33626.msg871302#msg871302 date=1242822273]
[quote author=foureyes link=topic=33626.msg871293#msg871293 date=1242821969]
[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=33626.msg871285#msg871285 date=1242821678]

*sighs* I could trawl through 2 pages but this is just one quote on this page :

There are many reasons as to why we haven't won the league, but to constantly blame lack of funds is bollocks.

It seems I am misinterpreting your intention - but from your posts it's not exactly clear cut ! IMHO 😉
[/quote]

And how does that say that I think he's had enough money to win the league? It doesn't. At all. It simply states that Rafa should not constantly keep pointing to lack of funds as the reason for not winning the league and should maybe accept that there are other reasons too, many of which are to do with him.
[/quote]

Mate if you can reconcile those two highlighted statements without drawing the conclusion I did then you are a better man than me !

I accept your intention was different to my interpretation - now since we've absolutely murdered this thread let's leave it there shall we ?

*offers hand with a smile*
[/quote]

It's simple, Froggy. There are lots of reasons we missed out on the title this year, but Rafa simply constantly bangs on about lack of funds. I don't see how that says that I feel that Rafa has had enough money to win the league. That's up for debate, but it's not what I said.
[/quote]

I happen to agree with that - but funds are still an issue if we to be there every season.
[/quote]

Absolutely.

 

[Wizardry]

[quote author=Sunny link=topic=33626.msg871028#msg871028 date=1242808627]
[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=33626.msg870884#msg870884 date=1242790025]
Ferguson has not outspend us in gross or net terms since Rafa arrived so for him to start pulling this up now really grates. They haven't been spending "40m or 50m on other players" for a long time and trying to prolong that myth is a joke. He's formed a very good team which could really take them on next season and this kind of muck just detracts from what he's done so far.

Friendly note to Rafa: "Suck it in princess."
[/quote]

That's an irrelevant point - when Rafa first arrived Ferguson had a much better squad to start with and thus, if anything, it needed less investment.
[/quote]

Right, so the fact that we finished a single point behind the mancs a few seasons ago and have spent more than them since then in order to finish further behind them in each of the next three seasons is just evidence that they've always had a much better squad.

Riigght!! :🙂

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=33626.msg871422#msg871422 date=1242833632]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=33626.msg871028#msg871028 date=1242808627]
[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=33626.msg870884#msg870884 date=1242790025]
Ferguson has not outspend us in gross or net terms since Rafa arrived so for him to start pulling this up now really grates. They haven't been spending "40m or 50m on other players" for a long time and trying to prolong that myth is a joke. He's formed a very good team which could really take them on next season and this kind of muck just detracts from what he's done so far.

Friendly note to Rafa: "Suck it in princess."
[/quote]

That's an irrelevant point - when Rafa first arrived Ferguson had a much better squad to start with and thus, if anything, it needed less investment.
[/quote]

Right, so the fact that we finished a single point behind the mancs a few seasons ago and have spent more than them since then in order to finish further behind them in each of the next three seasons is just evidence that they've always had a much better squad.

Riigght!! :🙂
[/quote]

all you have to do is look at the previous three seasons before we finished a point behind the mancs to see we overachieved whilst they underachieved, that was a false picture of the two teams relative strength.

 

[Wizardry]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=33626.msg871129#msg871129 date=1242813809]
[quote author=foureyes link=topic=33626.msg871110#msg871110 date=1242812906]
[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=33626.msg871098#msg871098 date=1242812185]
[quote author=foureyes link=topic=33626.msg871058#msg871058 date=1242809986]
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/article5946946.ece

With the net figures, take into account that had Rafa not fucked up with the Keane transfer and sold him back so quickly, there would be an extra £15 to £20 mill to add on.

Again, i'm not saying that Rafa has had more to spend than Fergie, but that he hasn't been quite as skint as he'd have you believe, and certainly not to the point that he should constantly whip up the same old excuse about lack of money.
[/quote]

I was about to answer when Google Chrome crashed (doesn't happen often, much faster and more stable than FF or IE) so sorry for the lag. I shouldn't have upwards of 80 pages open at a time but I always do !

The links just go on to backup my position (and Rafa's) which is that whilst Rafa has had to totally overhaul our clapped out banger, the F1 car that was United's team just needed it's annual service ! United have spent that money improving one or maximum two key positions each season whilst we have had to incrementally try to improve a whole plethora of weaknesses across the team & squad. Hardly a fair fight.

To have got to where we are now (sustaining a challenge until the next to last week of the season) from finishing 37 points behind is actually quite an achievement that I for one never thought he could muster, given that our spend does not exceed that of United's, and for that I have to hold my hands up.

However, I do agree with you, even though IMO he is justified in his claims, that he would just shut the fuck up.


[/quote]


Whilst it was far from great, that clapped out banger of a squad that you mention went on to win the Champions League with only two Rafa signings playing in the starting eleven. He didn't exactly inherit the West Brom squad.

He had Gerrard, Carra, Sami, Didi, Riise, Finnan, Dudek, Cisse. Hardly shite, were they?


[/quote]

gerrard - definately
carra - it was actually rafa that moved him to the center of defense so rafa can take some credit for that.
didi - definately, but it was obvious rafa wanted a holding midfielder with more mobility
sami - definately
finnan - I thought finnan was poor when rafa first arrived only with the competiton of josemi did finann's game step up a gear.
dudek - needed replacing, simple as.
cisse - didn't fit into his plans
riise - year on year decline until utterly rubbish when shipped out.

only three of the above were long term options the rest needed replacing or phasing out.
beyond the above there was next to no strength in depth so the squad needed padding out, admittedly rafa could have gambled on the above and bought specific players for key positions (left/right midfield) a strategem not without risk if the key players already on the books got a long term injury.

truth is the only times in five years I thought rafa missed a trick was morientes instead of nico and pennant bellemy instead of alves of than that I dont have much compliants and in my opinion a new manager needs four seasons to geniunely challenge for the title. sure managers have done it in less but if I were chairman I would give the manager 3 to 4 season to build the squad and to challenge so rafa is pretty much in line with the timescale I personally think managers should have.
[/quote]

Why people continue to make an effort at perpetuating this myth is beyond me. GH moved Carra into CB for a number of games prior to his departure. Whether he'd have kept him there for the next season is anyones guess but it wasn't some totally, unexpected, didn't see that one coming, trial by Rafa. The evidence was already in front of all of us from the previous season.

 

[mark1975]

Is the right answer Wiz, Ged did it towards the end of his tenure. Rafa told Carra he would be 'staying there'.

 

[gkmacca]

Brian Reade was talking earlier this week about how his fellow hacks blatantly miscalculate how much Rafa's spent and recouped in order to deflect attention away from the truth of his basic point. It's true.

 

[Biggus Dickus]

[quote author=gkmacca link=topic=33626.msg871476#msg871476 date=1242838115]
Brian Reade was talking earlier this week about how his fellow hacks blatantly miscalculate how much Rafa's spent and recouped in order to deflect attention away from the truth of his basic point. It's true.
[/quote]

Anyone can work that out IMO. First thing they should do is look at the wage bill. We simply cannot afford to pay the going rate to acquire as many top class players as MU. That's why Rafa said this week if we are to compete long term the new stadium is paramount.

 

[Rosco]

You can argue the ins and outs of this all day long (which i don't particularly want to do), but the simple fact is that if Rafa had spent his money wisely last summer we would have won the league with a bit to spare this season.

 

[KopKing]

Jeez. Not only has Man Utd won the Premiership, he's won the propoganda battle too. Their squad is littered with £30m players, yet they have spent the same or even LESS than us according some posters.

To suggest that money is the sole reason for Man Utd's superiority over Liverpool as Rafa is suggesting is another dig at Fergie in my opinion. He's letting him (Fergie) know that being called the greatest coach ever by the media, isn't a view shared by him and his success is due to Man Utd's greater financial wealth, not Fergie's great coaching/managerial ability. I love Rafa, but he should shut up now, he made his point and people are starting to perceive him as being bitter.

Our first XI is a match for any team in Europe in my opinion. We blew it with the home draws which came back to bite us. We buckled under the pressure of being top and we grew up us a team when we came through it and did well to come back and make a fight of it. We only need a little fine tuning here and there. We need better players to be rotated into the team, thats why I'm all for the likes of Barry coming in with Alonso & Mascher and I'd like to see a 'Third Player', a player who we can say we have Gerrard, Torres & 'Third player'.

 

[dee]

[quote author=KopKing link=topic=33626.msg871492#msg871492 date=1242842568]
I'd like to see a 'Third Player', a player who we can say we have Gerrard, Torres & 'Third player'.
[/quote]

I think we have that person already ... Pepe Reina.

... but I know what you mean.

 

[Wizardry]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=33626.msg871431#msg871431 date=1242834564]
[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=33626.msg871422#msg871422 date=1242833632]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=33626.msg871028#msg871028 date=1242808627]
[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=33626.msg870884#msg870884 date=1242790025]
Ferguson has not outspend us in gross or net terms since Rafa arrived so for him to start pulling this up now really grates. They haven't been spending "40m or 50m on other players" for a long time and trying to prolong that myth is a joke. He's formed a very good team which could really take them on next season and this kind of muck just detracts from what he's done so far.

Friendly note to Rafa: "Suck it in princess."
[/quote]

That's an irrelevant point - when Rafa first arrived Ferguson had a much better squad to start with and thus, if anything, it needed less investment.
[/quote]

Right, so the fact that we finished a single point behind the mancs a few seasons ago and have spent more than them since then in order to finish further behind them in each of the next three seasons is just evidence that they've always had a much better squad.

Riigght!! :🙂
[/quote]

all you have to do is look at the previous three seasons before we finished a point behind the mancs to see we overachieved whilst they underachieved, that was a false picture of the two teams relative strength.
[/quote]

LOL - that is blatantly false. Over achieved!! We under achieved in the last two seasons is what we did unless you're going to say we over achieved this season. You were one of the posters I argued with on this constantly Spider; you kept pointing at our first 11 and saying that was all the evidence we needed as to why we were so far behind. I kept saying that was rubbish - there was plenty of attacking talent and potency in that team but it was either not playing to its potential or being forced to play to its weaknesses.

This season with, if anything, a negative transfer window in the summer we have come forward remarkably. The majority can see why that is - the team has been playing to its strengths and largely to its potential. The only really significant additions to that team are Torres and Mascher - neither of whom featured as prominently this season as last season.

The title is ours - and Rafa's - to win next season IMO. It won't take much improvement in the team and Rafa is one of the few managers in the world who could have done it so major kudo's to him but it'll be one year later than it should have been for mine. The right signings and an approach that played to the teams strengths after the 82 points and we'd have won it by now instead of going backwards.

I've waited a long time so this delay isn't going to kill me - the only one I feel sorry for is Sami because that would have completed his cabinet. It will, however, make it all the sweeter to stop the mancs when they've gotten so close to being the most successful team in history.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=33626.msg871585#msg871585 date=1242856410]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=33626.msg871431#msg871431 date=1242834564]
[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=33626.msg871422#msg871422 date=1242833632]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=33626.msg871028#msg871028 date=1242808627]
[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=33626.msg870884#msg870884 date=1242790025]
Ferguson has not outspend us in gross or net terms since Rafa arrived so for him to start pulling this up now really grates. They haven't been spending "40m or 50m on other players" for a long time and trying to prolong that myth is a joke. He's formed a very good team which could really take them on next season and this kind of muck just detracts from what he's done so far.

Friendly note to Rafa: "Suck it in princess."
[/quote]

That's an irrelevant point - when Rafa first arrived Ferguson had a much better squad to start with and thus, if anything, it needed less investment.
[/quote]

Right, so the fact that we finished a single point behind the mancs a few seasons ago and have spent more than them since then in order to finish further behind them in each of the next three seasons is just evidence that they've always had a much better squad.

Riigght!! :🙂
[/quote]

all you have to do is look at the previous three seasons before we finished a point behind the mancs to see we overachieved whilst they underachieved, that was a false picture of the two teams relative strength.
[/quote]

LOL - that is blatantly false. Over achieved!! We under achieved in the last two seasons is what we did unless you're going to say we over achieved this season. You were one of the posters I argued with on this constantly Spider; you kept pointing at our first 11 and saying that was all the evidence we needed as to why we were so far behind. I kept saying that was rubbish - there was plenty of attacking talent and potency in that team but it was either not playing to its potential or being forced to play to its weaknesses.

This season with, if anything, a negative transfer window in the summer we have come forward remarkably. The majority can see why that is - the team has been playing to its strengths and largely to its potential. The only really significant additions to that team are Torres and Mascher - neither of whom featured as prominently this season as last season.

The title is ours - and Rafa's - to win next season IMO. It won't take much improvement in the team and Rafa is one of the few managers in the world who could have done it so major kudo's to him but it'll be one year later than it should have been for mine. The right signings and an approach that played to the teams strengths after the 82 points and we'd have won it by now instead of going backwards.

I've waited a long time so this delay isn't going to kill me - the only one I feel sorry for is Sami because that would have completed his cabinet. It will, however, make it all the sweeter to stop the mancs when they've gotten so close to being the most successful team in history.
[/quote]

in the past two season we've added genuine class players in the form of masherano and torres and a season after we landed 82 points we purchased kuyt. we have a very strong tem now but as I said earlier two seasons before securing 82 points we were woefully off the pace of manu, whilst manu if not exactly challenging themsleves for the title were certainly closer to the champions than we were. It can be argued that manu were in transition but we were in the process of having the entire squad overhauled, therefore manu were in a stronger position to consiolidate and grow than we were.

05/06
chelsea 91 (C)
manu 83
liverpool 82

04/05
chelsea 95 (C)
manu 77
liverpool 58

03/04
arsenal 90 (C)
manu 75
liverpool 60

look at the jump manu made in 05/06 compared to the jump we made, we made a massive jump but manu made a small increase. I think now we are in the position manu were in two season ago, a strong settled squad with fine tuning needed rather than major body work.

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=33626.msg871491#msg871491 date=1242842500]
You can argue the ins and outs of this all day long (which i don't particularly want to do), but the simple fact is that if Rafa had spent his money wisely last summer we would have won the league with a bit to spare this season.
[/quote]

Replace "simple fact" with "cobbled-togethor opinion".

For somebody so keen to eschew the difference between fact and fiction as often as you Ross, you shouldn't get caught out like that.