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Rafa Benitez: Liverpool don't have to win trophies to be a success

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Jürgen4PM

Jürgen4PM

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Rafa Benitez: Liverpool don't have to win trophies to be a success
Published 22:04 31/10/09 By Simon Mullock

Rafa Benitez has claimed success at Liverpool should not be measured in trophies.

The Merseysiders pride themselves as being the most successful club in England, with 18 titles and five European Cups.

But Benitez, who takes Liverpool into a week that could decide their Champions League fate after Saturday's shock 3-1 defeat at Fulham, said: “I don’t agree when people say that you have to win trophies.

“I always say you have to be there, you have to be close, you have to create a group of players who can fight for trophies.

“We got 86 points last season, yet some people were saying that it wasn’t good because we finished second.

“I think reducing the gap between the top team and Liverpool to four points was a massive achievement.

“Trophies mean a lot to everyone. But the most important thing is to see progression and evidence that you are improving and able to fight for trophies.

“It’s not just about one year. It is about what we can achieve in the future.

“People say that I have now been here five years. I say, look at the differences here now.

“Look at the value of the club before compared to the value of the club now.

“Look at the value of the squad before compared to the value of the squad now. You can see the progression.â€

Benitez’s words will come as a surprise to followers of a club with an insatiable appetite for silverware.

As legendary Anfield boss Bob Paisley once famously said: “First is first and second is nowhere.â€

Spaniard Benitez won the Champions League in his first season at Anfield, but the Reds have not lifted a trophy since the FA Cup in 2006.

He was given assurances about his future last week by managing director Christian Purslow.

Hours later Liverpool resurrected their Premier League challenge by beating Manchester United 2-0.

But they travel to Lyon in the Champions League on Wednesday night with their hopes of progression hanging by a thread following the French club’s 2-1 win at Anfield and a defeat at Fiorentina.

Benitez believes he will still have the backing of Purslow and the club’s two American owners, even if Liverpool suffer an early exit from Europe’s premier competition.

But he is aware that such a scenario would have serious consequences when it comes to his New Year transfer budget.

Benitez said: “Christian Purslow made it very clear that when I signed a new contract for five years it was so that I would be at this club for a very long time.

“Now I can control the Academy, I can control the young players we produce and build something very good for the future.

“We have analysed the squad together, looking at plans for January and also next season.

“My belief is that we will qualify for the knockout stages of the Champions League, but of course, you have to have plans based on whether you have more money or less money available.

“The more money you have, the easier it is.

“If you have less money then you hav to manage in a different way and find other solutions to improve.â€
 
Many of his points are quite boring, some are quite defensive, but I think he's about right in a general sense, although its a better argument made earlier in your tenure. The timing of this will of course invite all sorts of impassioned arguments against what are fairly innocuous statements.

He clearly isn't so blase about things, and he hates to lose, he looked crushed today, and there's no chance he doesn't fear for his position.

Here's where I have issues.

1) The value of our team as a business is more now, and European success in 2005 and 2006 was a fantastic advertisement that reenergized the club, however the clubs increase in value is mostly due to increased capitalization on European and EPL broadcast rights, which have to do with the value of the league itself. He's done marginally better than Houllier in the league, but this hasn't made any substantial difference in our profile.

2) The value of our first team is indeed improved now, but lets not overstate the case. We've spent a ton of money on youth, and the academy has been overhauled, but we haven't seen a payoff 6 years on. We began in earnest 4 years ago purchasing youth players, but they simply haven't developed into anything. Obviously the success rate, for all but the best systems (Arse) is quite low, but we've seen close to nothing. Our second team is miles away from our first, and in terms of youth development, it isn't for want of cash.

Here's where I have sympathy:

"Rafa always favours the CL"

I don't think Rafa favours the CL in any essential way, I think he is a pragmatist. Rafa doesn't seem to have made any significant net spend this summer, and I'm not sure whether it is or is not the case that he knew this would be the case before purchasing Glen Johnson. If he did know this, what a colossal blunder, but if not, and he's been guaranteed spending in January which is wholly dependent on the group stages, then we are back to the days of Houllier having to wait to qualify for Europe to spend, except now it occurs in the middle of the season. (It still doesn't justify a failed gamble on Aquilani).

If all the financial promises that are given to him are set in terms of the CL, then the way for him to build the squad he needs to do anything, including win the title, is through the CL. That is a backwards proposition, but it is inevitable that it will lead to decisions like today. One game, or one crucial player. Trouble is, he may well get neither.
 
fuck me. i never in my life thought i would hear a liverpool manager claim that.

such a belief is astonishing and will surely send shockwaves through the ranks - someone try telling gerrard, torres and anyone else that is potentially world class that we want to attract to our team that success is not about winning trophies.

what a totally ridiculous thing to claim.
 
WE ARE TROPHIES YOU BIG MASSIVE GRADE A TWAT.

God we are in a truly horrible mess with a div of a manager and cunts of owners.
 
[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=36867.msg976229#msg976229 date=1257035937]
"Football's about winning" - Bob Paisley



I thought Rafa would know better.
[/quote]

It's the Lollypop man's fault. Factoid.
 
What Rafa is saying is... (read it carefully)

Yes we are not winning trophies at the moment, but we are building up to it...

When we start winning trophies it will be like the days of old, when we win alot on the trot...

Success has to start somewhere, and we will be where we rightfully deserve to be soon....

Chill.... 8)
 
[quote author=ZhaoYun link=topic=36867.msg976297#msg976297 date=1257050520]
Shankly will fucking wake up from his graveyard if he read this.
[/quote]

I'd imagine estimations of success change, when you know, you are winning fucking everything. We aren't anymore, and we haven't for quite some time now. What he is saying, which was not in response to this last game, is pretty pedestrian, in that there are measures of progress and success beyond trophies, but that trophies are the end result and will follow such progress.

As I said above, there are many issues to pick with this interview, and one of them is that we should be getting to the end result at this point, not going backward, but sometimes when you don't go forward, which we didn't do this summer, you can only go backward. This is what I was afraid of in the summer, but some gambling, some terrible luck, and some poor reactions by the manager, and it's a lot worse than I thought it would be.

For all those saying second is nothing, I'd imagine Shankly wasn't saying, right boys, another failure, as he incrementally built the team up from the lower divisions. Obviously we don't have that sort of mountain to climb, but the summit seems exponentially more difficult to reach than being there and thereabouts, especially for us. While we have peaked higher under Rafa than Houllier last year, as far as I'm concerned, it's a longer way down now, the ownership situation makes the drop more perilous, and I'm not sure if Rafa will get the chance to attempt it again unless we start putting wins together and soon.
 
After a terrible result, hacks ask the worst kind of questions they can think of, such as 'Is there no hope left now?' 'Are your players not good enough?' and 'Do you feel like quitting?' Now any manager who answers 'yes' to any of those questions in public is an idiot. So what else do they say? As little as possible? 'He's too down to comment' would be the headlines. A few responses designed, amid one's depression, to deflect the obvious criticisms? It rarely works. The reality is that whatever you say or don't say after a bad result will be made the basis of a wild onslaught the next day. Any fans who take all of that literally are naive. Ignore it. If you take post match comments seriously these days you need to take a break from reading the papers. (And contemplate what you'd say in the same position.)
 
[quote author=Farkmaster link=topic=36867.msg976203#msg976203 date=1257032341]
Many of his points are quite boring, some are quite defensive, but I think he's about right in a general sense, although its a better argument made earlier in your tenure. The timing of this will of course invite all sorts of impassioned arguments against what are fairly innocuous statements.

He clearly isn't so blase about things, and he hates to lose, he looked crushed today, and there's no chance he doesn't fear for his position.

Here's where I have issues.

1) The value of our team as a business is more now, and European success in 2005 and 2006 was a fantastic advertisement that reenergized the club, however the clubs increase in value is mostly due to increased capitalization on European and EPL broadcast rights, which have to do with the value of the league itself. He's done marginally better than Houllier in the league, but this hasn't made any substantial difference in our profile.

2) The value of our first team is indeed improved now, but lets not overstate the case. We've spent a ton of money on youth, and the academy has been overhauled, but we haven't seen a payoff 6 years on. We began in earnest 4 years ago purchasing youth players, but they simply haven't developed into anything. Obviously the success rate, for all but the best systems (Arse) is quite low, but we've seen close to nothing. Our second team is miles away from our first, and in terms of youth development, it isn't for want of cash.

Here's where I have sympathy:

"Rafa always favours the CL"

I don't think Rafa favours the CL in any essential way, I think he is a pragmatist. Rafa doesn't seem to have made any significant net spend this summer, and I'm not sure whether it is or is not the case that he knew this would be the case before purchasing Glen Johnson. If he did know this, what a colossal blunder, but if not, and he's been guaranteed spending in January which is wholly dependent on the group stages, then we are back to the days of Houllier having to wait to qualify for Europe to spend, except now it occurs in the middle of the season. (It still doesn't justify a failed gamble on Aquilani).

If all the financial promises that are given to him are set in terms of the CL, then the way for him to build the squad he needs to do anything, including win the title, is through the CL. That is a backwards proposition, but it is inevitable that it will lead to decisions like today. One game, or one crucial player. Trouble is, he may well get neither.
[/quote]

Yeah, very good points.

The line that stuck out for me from that interview though was the bit about the value of the squad having increased. Has it? I was thinking back to Rafa's comments in A Season on the Brink, slagging off the squad he inherited from Houllier and saying most of those players weren't good enough for Liverpool. I thought, and still think, that was largely true. But is it any less true now? If a new manager came in, would he honestly look at the likes of Degen, Dossena, Zorba, Lucas, Spearing, Riera, Babel, Voronin, Cavalieri, Insua et al and think: yeah, there's the basis of a great squad here? Would he fuck. He'd just work out roughly how much he could get for them and set about planning his replacements. In terms of squad strength, I don't think we're any better off than we were five years ago.
 
Again, do you really think a manager telling the press after a match: 'I don't think we're any better off than we were five years ago' would help? The huge depression this result causes is undeniable, but complaining about answers made to the loaded questions of the press straight after the match seems deliberately perverse. The implication is that there was something uplifting, honest and effective that could be said after that match. 'No comment' was the least worst response, but even that would have inspired bad headlines. Most of the posts on here from now until the next win will be variations on 'I want to cry' dressed up as logical disquisitions.
 
[quote author=zlatan18 link=topic=36867.msg976286#msg976286 date=1257048054]
point prooven.. rafa benitez is fucking clueless
[/quote]

You'd know all about being clueless, you dribbling fucking bell end.

Instead of insulting him why not try and join the debating. Or perhaps I'm just aiming this at the wrong type of person. Probably so, in which case; fuck off Zlatan you fucking idiotic cunt.

You see, sometimes you have to stoop to the level of others to communicate with them properly. Next time I'll try a series of grunts and moans.
 
Changing the formation after last week very good performance was suicidal.
Benayoun on the left after his MOM vs Manu in the hole, playing Voronin, baffling substitutions.
I think I can say it was clueless.
The fight for 4th spot will be very hard this season.
Talking about this in October is not acceptable. It should be Rafa's last season
 
[quote author=Spionkop69 link=topic=36867.msg976351#msg976351 date=1257074069]
When did that interview take place?
[/quote]

Did I forget to mention? Straight after the match.
 
[quote author=gkmacca link=topic=36867.msg976331#msg976331 date=1257068399]
Again, do you really think a manager telling the press after a match: 'I don't think we're any better off than we were five years ago' would help? The huge depression this result causes is undeniable, but complaining about answers made to the loaded questions of the press straight after the match seems deliberately perverse. The implication is that there was something uplifting, honest and effective that could be said after that match. 'No comment' was the least worst response, but even that would have inspired bad headlines. Most of the posts on here from now until the next win will be variations on 'I want to cry' dressed up as logical disquisitions.
[/quote]

I wasn't criticising what he said (and this isn't the first time he's said it) so much as the depressing reality. Rafa's been here five years and the squad, which he went out of his way to slag off as being inadequate, has not really improved at all.

Maybe I should have started a separate thread for it, but it's true nonetheless.
 
For one thing, our youth and reserve set up IS significantly better than it was five years ago. And those who want to claim that any other side hit by as many injuries and infections as yesterday wouldn't be horribly weakened, IMHO, is being less than honest. Some will want to treat that as merely one sign of some long-term problem, others will emphasise the immediate problem, but to use yesterday as some singular proof of essential ineptitude are as loopy as rage. And for what purpose, other than some kind of 'I'm more depressed than you're depressed' contest...?
 
so explain away the previous 5 out of 6 losses in a row. what illness was that due to?

i hear that west ham have a good youth set up - in who's mind are they a success?

he's going boys, its only a matter of time, the fat fake fuckup of a tactical genius is on his way out.
 
[quote author=rage link=topic=36867.msg976537#msg976537 date=1257091621]
so explain away the previous 5 out of 6 losses in a row. what illness was that due to?
[/quote]

It was Montse's canary's fault Rage. Get with it.
 
I see you've quoted rage. He doesn't know he's on ignore, does he? I told you that function doesn't really work.
 
[quote author=The_Positive_One link=topic=36867.msg976279#msg976279 date=1257046413]
What Rafa is saying is... (read it carefully)

Yes we are not winning trophies at the moment, but we are building up to it...

[/quote]

We're not doing a very good job at the moment. The house that Jack Rafa built.
 
He's talking about "building" in his 6th season...

Whether he's lazy or he's building the Tajmahal
 
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