Rafa Benitez - Can he just sit at home and chillax??

[Delinquent]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47171.msg1411777#msg1411777 date=1318546470]
Benitez is largely right, a lot of the success United have had is down to money. However even when the money disappeared for a while and Fergie had to sell players he managed to keep them at the top of the league.
[/quote]

And of course the reason they have money is that they've been hugely successful. Which in a large part is down to Fergie. Benitez needs to get a job soon before he talks away any more of his credibility.

 

[Richey]

it could of course be that he is considering working in the media. Hasn't he taken a job as a pundit somewhere?

He does have a lot to offer in that field but these kind of comments just come across as bitterness against someone he has had run ins with in the past.

 

[El Pistolero]

The fella is only trying to get the presses attention as he's doing a big charity night in liverpool in the next few weeks. These comments get the presses attention which then focuses on his night. Being his mate glocky baby surely you wuld of knew this. Tool

 

[Spionkop69]

[quote author=Richey link=topic=47171.msg1411902#msg1411902 date=1318587887]
it could of course be that he is considering working in the media. Hasn't he taken a job as a pundit somewhere?

He does have a lot to offer in that field but these kind of comments just come across as bitterness against someone he has had run ins with in the past.[/quote]

Not unlike most other pundits in the media then?

 

[Glock21]

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=47171.msg1411838#msg1411838 date=1318577376]
Exactly.

All it does if anything is emphasise his obsessive and stubborn nature. He's still adopting the same stance over issues. It wasn't money that stopped us winning or even challenging for the title and the fact he's now jobless doesn't do him any favours when he's spouting about stuff like this in the press.
[/quote]


Well said.


Rafa's stubborness was the main factor that brought himself and us down. He can't do much without Pako Ayestaran whom he sacked at the start of 2007/2008 season, although we finished that season 2nd behind Manure.


Below are the stats Rafa with Pako and Rafa without Pako.


Pako was Rafa Benitez assistant for his title-winning years at Valencia and also at Liverpool.


Rafa with Pako:


1. 2 La Liga with Valencia
2. 1 UEFA Cup with Valencia
3. 1 Champions League with Liverpool
4. 1 SuperCup with Liverpool
5. 1 FA Cup with Liverpool
6. 1 Community Shiled with Liverpool




By himself Rafa has won the Supercoppa Italiana!


So could this be the reason behind Rafa's downfall? So can Rafa go into management once more with Pako and or without him?

 

[FoxForceFive]

As for the original question, no, he cant sit at home & 'chillax' cos he's a workaholic, hence becoming a footy manager in the first place!

 

[peterhague]

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=47171.msg1411838#msg1411838 date=1318577376]
Exactly.

All it does if anything is emphasise his obsessive and stubborn nature. He's still adopting the same stance over issues. It wasn't money that stopped us winning or even challenging for the title and the fact he's now jobless doesn't do him any favours when he's spouting about stuff like this in the press.
[/quote]

errrr, it didn't exactly help, though, did it? if you actually stopped for a second and gave the guy a break, you'd see the odds he was up against. first 2 years against mourinho's chelsea, with a substandard inheritance from houllier. then the emergence of probably the best utd team of the PL era, with the happy coincidence of rooney and ronaldo coming to prominence together. you know the points totals of the winners those 5 years? 95, 91, 89, 87, 90. an average of 90.4 per season, the highest 5 year average of any period since the PL era beagan, and no doubt for a long time before that, too.

so, maybe next time you're tempted to spout some utter bollcoks about '£80m spunked away, duurrrrr' you might first be grateful for some of the many things he DID get right, or some of the near impossible odds he COULDN'T be expected to overcome. somehow, though, i doubt it.

 

[themn]

[quote author=The_Rule link=topic=47171.msg1411911#msg1411911 date=1318589129]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=47171.msg1411838#msg1411838 date=1318577376]
Exactly.

All it does if anything is emphasise his obsessive and stubborn nature. He's still adopting the same stance over issues. It wasn't money that stopped us winning or even challenging for the title and the fact he's now jobless doesn't do him any favours when he's spouting about stuff like this in the press.
[/quote]


Well said.


Rafa's stubborness was the main factor that brought himself and us down. He can't do much without Pako Ayestaran whom he sacked at the start of 2007/2008 season, although we finished that season 2nd behind Manure.


Below are the stats Rafa with Pako and Rafa without Pako.


Pako was Rafa Benitez assistant for his title-winning years at Valencia and also at Liverpool.


Rafa with Pako:


1. 2 La Liga with Valencia
2. 1 UEFA Cup with Valencia
3. 1 Champions League with Liverpool
4. 1 SuperCup with Liverpool
5. 1 FA Cup with Liverpool
6. 1 Community Shiled with Liverpool




By himself Rafa has won the Supercoppa Italiana!


So could this be the reason behind Rafa's downfall? So can Rafa go into management once more with Pako and or without him?
[/quote]

Richey- still need convincing that English isn't Glock's first language ?

Unless, of course, this is all lifted from elsewhere ?

 

[Richey]

[quote author=themn link=topic=47171.msg1411926#msg1411926 date=1318592581]
[quote author=The_Rule link=topic=47171.msg1411911#msg1411911 date=1318589129]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=47171.msg1411838#msg1411838 date=1318577376]
Exactly.

All it does if anything is emphasise his obsessive and stubborn nature. He's still adopting the same stance over issues. It wasn't money that stopped us winning or even challenging for the title and the fact he's now jobless doesn't do him any favours when he's spouting about stuff like this in the press.
[/quote]


Well said.


Rafa's stubborness was the main factor that brought himself and us down. He can't do much without Pako Ayestaran whom he sacked at the start of 2007/2008 season, although we finished that season 2nd behind Manure.


Below are the stats Rafa with Pako and Rafa without Pako.


Pako was Rafa Benitez assistant for his title-winning years at Valencia and also at Liverpool.


Rafa with Pako:


1. 2 La Liga with Valencia
2. 1 UEFA Cup with Valencia
3. 1 Champions League with Liverpool
4. 1 SuperCup with Liverpool
5. 1 FA Cup with Liverpool
6. 1 Community Shiled with Liverpool




By himself Rafa has won the Supercoppa Italiana!


So could this be the reason behind Rafa's downfall? So can Rafa go into management once more with Pako and or without him?
[/quote]

Richey- still need convincing that English isn't Glock's first language ?

Unless, of course, this is all lifted from elsewhere ?
[/quote]

No idea what his first or even second language is (or whether its lifted from elsewhere - although he does have previous for that apparently). I just wondered if he had actually admitted outright where he is from

 

[Spionkop69]

[quote author=peterhague link=topic=47171.msg1411916#msg1411916 date=1318590750]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=47171.msg1411838#msg1411838 date=1318577376]
Exactly.

All it does if anything is emphasise his obsessive and stubborn nature. He's still adopting the same stance over issues. It wasn't money that stopped us winning or even challenging for the title and the fact he's now jobless doesn't do him any favours when he's spouting about stuff like this in the press.
[/quote]

errrr, it didn't exactly help, though, did it? if you actually stopped for a second and gave the guy a break, you'd see the odds he was up against. first 2 years against mourinho's chelsea, with a substandard inheritance from houllier. then the emergence of probably the best utd team of the PL era, with the happy coincidence of rooney and ronaldo coming to prominence together. you know the points totals of the winners those 5 years? 95, 91, 89, 87, 90. an average of 90.4 per season, the highest 5 year average of any period since the PL era beagan, and no doubt for a long time before that, too.

so, maybe next time you're tempted to spout some utter bollcoks about '£80m spunked away, duurrrrr' you might first be grateful for some of the many things he DID get right, or some of the near impossible odds he COULDN'T be expected to overcome. somehow, though, i doubt it.
[/quote]

Peter, to be fair to Mark, he has defended Rafa quite a bit in the past and I definitely wouldn't have him in Ross' hate camp!

 

[StevieM]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47171.msg1411777#msg1411777 date=1318546470]
Benitez is largely right, a lot of the success United have had is down to money. However even when the money disappeared for a while and Fergie had to sell players he managed to keep them at the top of the league.
[/quote]

I'm taking that as an understated, albeit forced, statement in support of Bentiez' management of the club.

 

[Spionkop69]

[quote author=StevieM link=topic=47171.msg1411966#msg1411966 date=1318597438]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47171.msg1411777#msg1411777 date=1318546470]
Benitez is largely right, a lot of the success United have had is down to money. However even when the money disappeared for a while and Fergie had to sell players he managed to keep them at the top of the league.
[/quote]

I'm taking that as an understated, albeit forced, statement in support of Bentiez' management of the club.
[/quote]

Oh definitely. Ross has been turned!

 

[vantage]

[quote author=Spionkop69 link=topic=47171.msg1411971#msg1411971 date=1318598698]
[quote author=StevieM link=topic=47171.msg1411966#msg1411966 date=1318597438]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47171.msg1411777#msg1411777 date=1318546470]
Benitez is largely right, a lot of the success United have had is down to money. However even when the money disappeared for a while and Fergie had to sell players he managed to keep them at the top of the league.
[/quote]

I'm taking that as an understated, albeit forced, statement in support of Bentiez' management of the club.
[/quote]

Oh definitely. Ross has been turned!
[/quote]

I think the fact that we have spent more in one year (not net spend, eh, as that doesn't count - it's overall spend!!!) with our ideal manager and we are still outside the top 4 (only just but should Spurs win their game in hand we'd be 6th) has forced people to reconsider the job Benitez did with a fraction of the money. I have huge confidence that Kenny & Steve Clarke will guide us to future glory, but I also believe that given similar backing, Rafa could have done likewise....

 

[juniormember]

[quote author=vantage link=topic=47171.msg1412069#msg1412069 date=1318633877]
[quote author=Spionkop69 link=topic=47171.msg1411971#msg1411971 date=1318598698]
[quote author=StevieM link=topic=47171.msg1411966#msg1411966 date=1318597438]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47171.msg1411777#msg1411777 date=1318546470]
Benitez is largely right, a lot of the success United have had is down to money. However even when the money disappeared for a while and Fergie had to sell players he managed to keep them at the top of the league.
[/quote]

I'm taking that as an understated, albeit forced, statement in support of Bentiez' management of the club.
[/quote]

Oh definitely. Ross has been turned!
[/quote]

I think the fact that we have spent more in one year (not net spend, eh, as that doesn't count - it's overall spend!!!) with our ideal manager and we are still outside the top 4 (only just but should Spurs win their game in hand we'd be 6th) has forced people to reconsider the job Benitez did with a fraction of the money. I have huge confidence that Kenny & Steve Clarke will guide us to future glory, but I also believe that given similar backing, Rafa could have done likewise....
[/quote]

Tough one to say either way, considering the mess we were in with ordinary players with massive wages sitting on the bench was down to Rafa in the first place. And you DO have to consider the NET spend, as it seriously clouds the picture if not. We didn't add to our firepower up front by simply spending 50m on two strikers. We lost one of the most prolific strikers in our history and broke even with the two replacement strikers. Massive difference.

 

[Rosco]

Do some people think Rafa operated on a shoestring ?

I suggest you look at the numbers rather than the rhetoric. Rafa wasted huge money.

 

[themn]

Oh well, 'twas beautiful while it lasted.

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=peterhague link=topic=47171.msg1411916#msg1411916 date=1318590750]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=47171.msg1411838#msg1411838 date=1318577376]
Exactly.

All it does if anything is emphasise his obsessive and stubborn nature. He's still adopting the same stance over issues. It wasn't money that stopped us winning or even challenging for the title and the fact he's now jobless doesn't do him any favours when he's spouting about stuff like this in the press.
[/quote]

errrr, it didn't exactly help, though, did it? if you actually stopped for a second and gave the guy a break, you'd see the odds he was up against. first 2 years against mourinho's chelsea, with a substandard inheritance from houllier. then the emergence of probably the best utd team of the PL era, with the happy coincidence of rooney and ronaldo coming to prominence together. you know the points totals of the winners those 5 years? 95, 91, 89, 87, 90. an average of 90.4 per season, the highest 5 year average of any period since the PL era beagan, and no doubt for a long time before that, too.

so, maybe next time you're tempted to spout some utter bollcoks about '£80m spunked away, duurrrrr' you might first be grateful for some of the many things he DID get right, or some of the near impossible odds he COULDN'T be expected to overcome. somehow, though, i doubt it.
[/quote]

Quelle surprise. I've defended him alot, but the £80m issue is true, unless you think spending £20m on Glen Johnson has been a resounding success, or the fact that we managed to sell most of that shite for a reasonable fee is some kind of testimony to success..... Oh wait.

Take the blinkers off and play a different tune Pete.

 

[Friend no. 2]

Fergie is a fucking fantastic manager, only a fool would say different, but Man United starting starting winning at the right time, when football start becoming sexy i.e. shit. They won the league in 93 and then the double in 94 and 96 and started cashing in. Winning starting meaning a lot more money then when English football started becoming global and from then on a decent level of money became an absolute necessity for success. They spent 30 million on Ferdinand in 2002, when it took us until 2011 to spend that much on a player. Cisse was our most expensive player at 14 million until 2008, when United had spent far more than that on Veron, Ferdinand, Rooney and van Nistelrooy off the top of my head.

 

[Judge Jules]

As so often the truth is somewhere in the middle of all this. Rafa did get a lot to spend and unquestionably p!$$ed away too much of it. That said, he was asked to close the gap on a winning machine, in the shape of ManUre, without being given the extra spend over and above theirs which would have been necessary. He also had to contend with a succession of incompetents off the field who would have made any manager's job a hundred times more difficult.

 

[peterhague]

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=47171.msg1412153#msg1412153 date=1318671214]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=47171.msg1411916#msg1411916 date=1318590750]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=47171.msg1411838#msg1411838 date=1318577376]
Exactly.

All it does if anything is emphasise his obsessive and stubborn nature. He's still adopting the same stance over issues. It wasn't money that stopped us winning or even challenging for the title and the fact he's now jobless doesn't do him any favours when he's spouting about stuff like this in the press.
[/quote]

errrr, it didn't exactly help, though, did it? if you actually stopped for a second and gave the guy a break, you'd see the odds he was up against. first 2 years against mourinho's chelsea, with a substandard inheritance from houllier. then the emergence of probably the best utd team of the PL era, with the happy coincidence of rooney and ronaldo coming to prominence together. you know the points totals of the winners those 5 years? 95, 91, 89, 87, 90. an average of 90.4 per season, the highest 5 year average of any period since the PL era beagan, and no doubt for a long time before that, too.

so, maybe next time you're tempted to spout some utter bollcoks about '£80m spunked away, duurrrrr' you might first be grateful for some of the many things he DID get right, or some of the near impossible odds he COULDN'T be expected to overcome. somehow, though, i doubt it.
[/quote]

Quelle surprise. I've defended him alot, but the £80m issue is true, unless you think spending £20m on Glen Johnson has been a resounding success, or the fact that we managed to sell most of that shite for a reasonable fee is some kind of testimony to success..... Oh wait.

Take the blinkers off and play a different tune Pete.
[/quote]

sorry, i was stupid to wade in, as normal. i still think what i think, but it's silly trying to force you to see it my way.

anyway, to answer JJ about too much of the money being pissed away...i honestly just don't know if that's true. i remember in one of my more obsessive moments trying to work out how much of his money he'd spent 'well' and it came in at about 60%. i reckon that's pretty good - and personally, better than any other LFC manager since i started following us. houllier, as a contrast, came out with about 35% spent well.

 

[Richey]

[quote author=peterhague link=topic=47171.msg1412252#msg1412252 date=1318678397]

anyway, to answer JJ about too much of the money being pissed away...i honestly just don't know if that's true. i remember in one of my more obsessive moments trying to work out how much of his money he'd spent 'well' and it came in at about 60%. i reckon that's pretty good - and personally, better than any other LFC manager since i started following us. houllier, as a contrast, came out with about 35% spent well.
[/quote]

Was that 60% of his signings being good ones or 60% of the total cash being on good signings?

If it was the first I would be surprised as that would mean that he made around 35 good signings, which I don't think he did.
If it was the second then I am not sure if that is a great indicator really

 

[Glock21]

Every manager made mistake signing crap players every now and then but for Rafa it is not a question of signing bad players that really catch the eye. It is his tinkering and stubbornness that caused us trophies.

 

[Richey]

[quote author=The_Rule link=topic=47171.msg1412523#msg1412523 date=1318697600]
Every manager made mistake signing crap players every now and then but for Rafa it is not a question of signing bad players that really catch the eye. It is his tinkering and stubbornness that caused us trophies.
[/quote]

I assume you mean 'cost', otherwise that really doesn't make much sense at all.

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=peterhague link=topic=47171.msg1412252#msg1412252 date=1318678397]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=47171.msg1412153#msg1412153 date=1318671214]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=47171.msg1411916#msg1411916 date=1318590750]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=47171.msg1411838#msg1411838 date=1318577376]
Exactly.

All it does if anything is emphasise his obsessive and stubborn nature. He's still adopting the same stance over issues. It wasn't money that stopped us winning or even challenging for the title and the fact he's now jobless doesn't do him any favours when he's spouting about stuff like this in the press.
[/quote]

errrr, it didn't exactly help, though, did it? if you actually stopped for a second and gave the guy a break, you'd see the odds he was up against. first 2 years against mourinho's chelsea, with a substandard inheritance from houllier. then the emergence of probably the best utd team of the PL era, with the happy coincidence of rooney and ronaldo coming to prominence together. you know the points totals of the winners those 5 years? 95, 91, 89, 87, 90. an average of 90.4 per season, the highest 5 year average of any period since the PL era beagan, and no doubt for a long time before that, too.

so, maybe next time you're tempted to spout some utter bollcoks about '£80m spunked away, duurrrrr' you might first be grateful for some of the many things he DID get right, or some of the near impossible odds he COULDN'T be expected to overcome. somehow, though, i doubt it.
[/quote]

Quelle surprise. I've defended him alot, but the £80m issue is true, unless you think spending £20m on Glen Johnson has been a resounding success, or the fact that we managed to sell most of that shite for a reasonable fee is some kind of testimony to success..... Oh wait.

Take the blinkers off and play a different tune Pete.
[/quote]

sorry, i was stupid to wade in, as normal. i still think what i think, but it's silly trying to force you to see it my way.

anyway, to answer JJ about too much of the money being pissed away...i honestly just don't know if that's true. i remember in one of my more obsessive moments trying to work out how much of his money he'd spent 'well' and it came in at about 60%. i reckon that's pretty good - and personally, better than any other LFC manager since i started following us. houllier, as a contrast, came out with about 35% spent well.
[/quote]

No worries, I was probably just as bad the other way, we know the score regards this and we still argue the toss. I think he was great and have a lot of fond memories, I just think he fucked himself up. S'all.

 

[peterhague]

Richey - yeh, the second one. 60% of money spent. I realise it's not the usual way of looking at signings, of limited use etc. Still, it was in response to the charge of him wasting lots of money, which compared to someone like GH isn't really true. Obviously it means GH doesn't get credit for signings like Hyypia, Babbel and McAllister, but it does show that he was almost hopeless at the big money ones.

 

[Richey]

[quote author=peterhague link=topic=47171.msg1412540#msg1412540 date=1318700613]
Richey - yeh, the second one. 60% of money spent. I realise it's not the usual way of looking at signings, of limited use etc. Still, it was in response to the charge of him wasting lots of money, which compared to someone like GH isn't really true. Obviously it means GH doesn't get credit for signings like Hyypia, Babbel and McAllister, but it does show that he was almost hopeless at the big money ones.
[/quote]

Oh okay. In fairness neither way of working that kind of thing out is flawless, and its worth remembering that the free signings are far from actually free either.

Not sure its fair to say that Houllier was hopeless at spending big money. Hamann for example was something like his third most expensive signing and he did pretty well.

 

[peterhague]

Almost 😉

 

[keniget]

What killed Rafa was that a lot of his big mistakes came in a short period of time, the same period a couple of key players left and the same period the margin for error became virtually non-existent.

 

[Richey]

Haha. Fair enough.

It could also be argued though of course that Benitez's record of bigger money signings was pretty mixed - Torres, Mascherano, Alonso all very good but Keane, Aquilani, Babel not so good.

 

[Richey]

[quote author=keniget link=topic=47171.msg1412586#msg1412586 date=1318708972]
What killed Rafa was that a lot of his big mistakes came in a short period of time, the same period a couple of key players left and the same period the margin for error became virtually non-existent.
[/quote]

True.

His practice before that would be to buy players and be able to move them on if they didn't work out. Sadly for him the point came when the club couldn't afford that anymore. So not entirely his fault but then if he had bought well to start with.......