Quick Poll: Where does Liverpools biggest Problem Lie ?

[Le Chacal]

We wouldnt be talking about the yanks if Rafa had won all these Stoke, Pompey, Hull, Boro, Fulham, etc. draws or losses...Nevermind that CL final in 2007 when he fucked up with lineup and substitutions. These results are 100% his responsability.
We would have got one more CL and our 19th title in the bag.

Although the issue with stadium would still be a concern, I actually think a majority of people would be prasing them.

 

[Squiggles]

Rafa has never been 'forced to sell' a player.

There's been two players who have left in his tenure without are blessing;

Owen & Xabi (debatable)

The rest were either not good enough or we let them run down their contracts.

 

[KopKing]

[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=38772.msg1048590#msg1048590 date=1265203183]
Rafa has never been 'forced to sell' a player.

There's been two players who have left in his tenure without are blessing;

Owen & Xabi (debatable)

The rest were either not good enough or we let them run down their contracts.
[/quote]

You know this how? Just as Rafa has been 'forced' to pick up Bosmans, he's been forced to offload players through circumstances, just as much as they have been 'shit'.

 

[Jürgen4PM]

The owners.

*For those who are convinced it's the manager*

Who employs Rafa?

 

[peterhague]

[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=38772.msg1048589#msg1048589 date=1265203165]
We wouldnt be talking about the yanks if Rafa had won all these Stoke, Pompey, Hull, Boro, Fulham, etc. draws or losses...Nevermind that CL final in 2007 when he fucked up with lineup and substitutions. These results are 100% his responsability.
We would have got one more CL and our 19th title in the bag.

Although the issue with stadium would still be a concern, I actually think a majority of people would be prasing them.
[/quote]


absolutely. it's hard to exaggerate rafa's luck in taking over the team on 22/05/07.

 

[rubans]

Owners, for trebbling our debt and not delivering on the stadium or looking likely to deliever.
They are the long term problem for the club.

 

[Richey]

[quote author=Asbo link=topic=38772.msg1048581#msg1048581 date=1265202893]
Its how rafa gets his spends though, he gets cheap or Free, and sells on for a profit so he can buy.

He's like a sweetshop owner who has to make his own sweets


[/quote]

Not sure I can think of many times where that has actually happened. We've made slight profits on a few but with signing on fees etc coupled with slight losses we have made on others it probably balances out.

Wenger has a track record of doing as you describe. Benitez does not.

 

[themn]

Hmmm...Brendan appears to have more than one log-in.

 

[Sunny]

[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=38772.msg1048589#msg1048589 date=1265203165]
We wouldnt be talking about the yanks if Rafa had won all these Stoke, Pompey, Hull, Boro, Fulham, etc. draws or losses...Nevermind that CL final in 2007 when he fucked up with lineup and substitutions. These results are 100% his responsability.
We would have got one more CL and our 19th title in the bag.

Although the issue with stadium would still be a concern, I actually think a majority of people would be prasing them.
[/quote]

They'd be praising Benitez more though

 

[Asbo]

[quote author=Richey link=topic=38772.msg1048620#msg1048620 date=1265206110]
[quote author=Asbo link=topic=38772.msg1048581#msg1048581 date=1265202893]
Its how rafa gets his spends though, he gets cheap or Free, and sells on for a profit so he can buy.

He's like a sweetshop owner who has to make his own sweets


[/quote]

Not sure I can think of many times where that has actually happened. We've made slight profits on a few but with signing on fees etc coupled with slight losses we have made on others it probably balances out.

Wenger has a track record of doing as you describe. Benitez does not.
[/quote]



20 Million profit on Alonso

4 million on Crouch

1.5 on Bellamy Arbeloa and Leto, to name a few off the top of my head theres 30 Million right there

 

[Le Chacal]

[quote author=Sunny link=topic=38772.msg1048625#msg1048625 date=1265206763]
[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=38772.msg1048589#msg1048589 date=1265203165]
We wouldnt be talking about the yanks if Rafa had won all these Stoke, Pompey, Hull, Boro, Fulham, etc. draws or losses...Nevermind that CL final in 2007 when he fucked up with lineup and substitutions. These results are 100% his responsability.
We would have got one more CL and our 19th title in the bag.

Although the issue with stadium would still be a concern, I actually think a majority of people would be prasing them.
[/quote]

They'd be praising Benitez more though
[/quote]
For sure but point is we would not be talking about the yanks that much.
We would be happy with Benitez and satisfied with new owners that would have brought a title after 19 years.

As I've been saying since all this Yanks/Rafa saga started end of 2007, the only truth is on the pitch.
Rafa is on charge with whats going on on the pitch.
When we win games we rarely hear about off the field problems.
Now Rafa has to focus on getting 4th and he can go.
If the yanks can go with him, the better

 

[acejmk]

The owners must go by the summer!

New owners give Rafa next season if no league title then he can be told to leave 😛olice:

he deserves one last season with a couple of new faces in the squad 😉

 

[Asbo]

[quote author=acejmk link=topic=38772.msg1048634#msg1048634 date=1265208742]
The owners must go by the summer!

New owners give Rafa next season if no league title then he can be told to leave 😛olice:

he deserves one last season with a couple of new faces in the squad 😉
[/quote]

Chelsea

Man City

Man U

Arsenal

All with grounds that make 1 MILLION quid a home game more than us now.

Chelsea

Man City

With reserves that are on a par with our first teamers.

Liverpool to win the title without a new ground and a team spend of 100 Million for new players 5% chance.

Some Liverpool fans to be realistic in the current situation 0% chance.

 

[Richey]

[quote author=Asbo link=topic=38772.msg1048627#msg1048627 date=1265207300]
[quote author=Richey link=topic=38772.msg1048620#msg1048620 date=1265206110]
[quote author=Asbo link=topic=38772.msg1048581#msg1048581 date=1265202893]
Its how rafa gets his spends though, he gets cheap or Free, and sells on for a profit so he can buy.

He's like a sweetshop owner who has to make his own sweets


[/quote]

Not sure I can think of many times where that has actually happened. We've made slight profits on a few but with signing on fees etc coupled with slight losses we have made on others it probably balances out.

Wenger has a track record of doing as you describe. Benitez does not.
[/quote]



20 Million profit on Alonso

4 million on Crouch

1.5 on Bellamy Arbeloa and Leto, to name a few off the top of my head theres 30 Million right there
[/quote]

We did turn a profit on them and others, then there were the losses on the likes of Keane, Cisse, Pennant, Morientes, Paletta, Dossena, Josemi

Its beside the point anyway. Alonso's sale is clearly not something that worked out well and is not a good advert for Benitez's skill in the transfer market, and those who we profitted only marginally on would have cost about that much in signing on fees etc anyway.

Constantly chopping and changing players is not helpful and has done us no good.

Benitez has used getting on for 90 players in his time here. Does that not strike you as rather high and a sign of a manager who is still struggling to assemble a decent squad?

 

[Avmenon]

[quote author=KopKing link=topic=38772.msg1048546#msg1048546 date=1265199730]
[quote author=Molbystwin link=topic=38772.msg1048545#msg1048545 date=1265199361]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=38772.msg1048540#msg1048540 date=1265198952]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=38772.msg1048524#msg1048524 date=1265198386]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=38772.msg1048509#msg1048509 date=1265197460]
Yeah, the owners are the deepest problem at the club, but it certainly shouldn't deter from the glaring mistakes made outside their remit.

Plenty of managers would have built a better squad with the money given to Benitez.
[/quote]

Which managers are these then? Would they have won the Champions League too? Look at the wage bill and transfer budget of The teams that have won the league in the last 5 years and compare that to Rafa's spending of £16m net per season.

The fact that we came 2nd last year was an immense achievement and just like you believe 'plenty of managers' would have built a better squad, by that you must have meant they would have won the league, I believe there are few managers in world football that could have done better.
[/quote]

I was talking about building a squad. The success in 2005 - 5 years ago - has nothing to do our problems today. And having a better squad doesn't instantly mean I "expect" the league, so stop talking shit.

We've spent hundreds of millions of pounds and the squad shouldn't be this weak. If you can't agree with that fundamental fact, I'm not going to waste my time trying to convince you.
[/quote]

We have not spent hundreds of millions of pounds improving the team during Rafa's reign, is there sucha thing as a mis-fact??

Don't worry though i'm glad you are not going to bother to convince me squiggs.

See previous post for explanation.
[/quote]

I think he was referring to me. He's neglected the fact that Rafa has also recouped millions of pounds at the same time, another fundamental fact. I'm glad he wont waste his time on me though.
[/quote]

Indeed, wasting time on the Rafalution apologists is pointless.

 

[ibromurph]

[quote author=Asbo link=topic=38772.msg1048642#msg1048642 date=1265210320]
[quote author=acejmk link=topic=38772.msg1048634#msg1048634 date=1265208742]
The owners must go by the summer!

New owners give Rafa next season if no league title then he can be told to leave 😛olice:

he deserves one last season with a couple of new faces in the squad 😉
[/quote]

Chelsea

Man City

Man U

Arsenal

All with grounds that make 1 MILLION quid a home game more than us now.

Chelsea

Man City

With reserves that are on a par with our first teamers.

Liverpool to win the title without a new ground and a team spend of 100 Million for new players 5% chance.

Some Liverpool fans to be realistic in the current situation 0% chance.


[/quote]

I'd understand if we were coming fourth/fifth because we were losing to all those top sides who had more money and better squads than us. But that's not the case. That is not why we are where we are.

How does one explain the fact we were out of the title race in October? Or the fact that we are out (now) because we lost points to the 'lesser' teams like Stoke, Blackburn, Wolves and Pompey? 3 points in those games and we'd still be in the title race. There's really no excuse. We've underachieved on the pitch this year and a lot of that blame falls on the management. 1 league challenge in 5 years is not good enough. Even if we win the Europa league this year, I dare say last year would still be viewed as a better season (as it gave so much promise for the future). I really thought we had shed ourselves of the years of inconsistency and were going to be up there (challenging) for at least the next 3 years.

I accept that we don't have the resources of some of the other sides do, but with our team/squad, we should at least be getting to February (each year) with a sniff of the title (within 8 points). If this were the case, at least we'd know that Rafa was doing the best job he could and was hamstrung by others higher up. But to talk solely about money is to dimiss the role of a good coach, which is to best manage the resources he does have.

 

[Rosco]

The strongest reason in favour of picking the Yanks is that they renewed Rafa's contract.

For the sake of discussion, what sort of condition do people think we would we be in had :

a) Moores and the other previous shareholders stayed on as owners ?

b) DIC taken over ?

 

[darkstarexodus]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=38772.msg1048723#msg1048723 date=1265224417]
The strongest reason in favour of picking the Yanks is that they renewed Rafa's contract.

For the sake of discussion, what sort of condition do people think we would we be in had :

a) Moores and the other previous shareholders stayed on as owners ?

b) DIC taken over ?
[/quote]

A) No Torres. Less public squabbling.

B) God only knows.

 

[peterhague]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=38772.msg1048723#msg1048723 date=1265224417]
The strongest reason in favour of picking the Yanks is that they renewed Rafa's contract.

For the sake of discussion, what sort of condition do people think we would we be in had :

a) Moores and the other previous shareholders stayed on as owners ?

b) DIC taken over ?
[/quote]


i'm guessing the answer's 'much better off either way'!

am i close?

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=peterhague link=topic=38772.msg1048745#msg1048745 date=1265227598]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=38772.msg1048723#msg1048723 date=1265224417]
The strongest reason in favour of picking the Yanks is that they renewed Rafa's contract.

For the sake of discussion, what sort of condition do people think we would we be in had :

a) Moores and the other previous shareholders stayed on as owners ?

b) DIC taken over ?
[/quote]


i'm guessing the answer's 'much better off either way'!

am i close?
[/quote]

Probably miles off

 

[ILD]

Yanks out over Rafa anyway! I'd start with them then look at the managerial role next.

Don't want to lose Rafa and watch the owners bring in a 'Yes' man.