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Playing two footballers in the middle

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Rosco

Worse than Brendan
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It gets a big thumbs up from me. The difference between us for most of the season and last night was we put two capable all round players in the middle of the pitch and let them get on with it.

We abandoned the notion that we need some horribly limited offensive non entity in the middle of the pitch to walk around in front of the defence and just got on with playing our own game. The result being the best performance we've sign all season.

I presume some will see it as a one off, but I prefer to look at it as what is possible when you just put your most talented players on the pitch in positions that suit them.
 
I also saw it as a sign that 4-4-2 can work, we definitely need a winger in the summer though.
 
I've seen a lot of performances like that from us this season, just without the 3 points. We had a lot of luck with our goals and thats something we've been missing.

I'd say it's near on impossible that we won't get a lot more goals out of Suarez, Carroll and Henderson next season, if we can add a couple of players who can contribute in this area we'll be laughing.
 
Agree completely. We've seen 451 a lot this season and we generally suck at it.

We suck at it because we don't have the personnel for it. We also don't have the personnel to effectively play a rigid 4-4-2 either. In any case, I'm never in favour of a formation, whether a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-4-2 which promotes rigidity in formation of the attacking four.

As far as formations go, I'm really concerned only about having a core of a strong back 4 and a midfield two. The attacking four should be as fluid and interchangeable as possible. Of course, this is contingent on the kind of personnel you have, and that's exactly why I was opposed to signing a player like Downing (who was bought with the idea of sticking to a flank and crossing the ball into the box), or indeed any sort of player bought for a particular kind of skillset requiring others to play to his strengths. This idea of having two out wide who can cross the ball in is often ridiculously misunderstood. Very simply, good attacking play is about creating time and space advantages in the final third, and getting as close to the opposition box to try and score goals. It isn’t rocket science then to figure out that the best attacking teams are those who have the ability to penetrate through the middle with the ADDED ability to go out wide if teams park the bus in the middle. The rigid 4-4-2 formation is built on the completely different premise, that the focus of your attack should be get the ball out to wide areas, and then ping in early balls into the box. It’s a system that was probably perfected by the United side of the 90s and the early 00s, but I’ll come to that later. As a fundamental point though, it isn’t difficult to figure out that any sort of system which relies on the accuracy of a player pinging the ball in from a considerable distance, and also the consistent ability of your central players to get on the end of such crosses is a whole lot more inefficient than a system which relies on passing, movement, and pace through the centre to get closer to the opposition box and try and score. I’ll use a basketball analogy, and tell you that teams relying on a primitive ‘get early crosses into the box’ philosophy are akin to jump-shooting basketball teams, whereas teams relying on a penetrative pass and move philosophy are akin to post-playing basketball teams. It’s well-established that scoring off jump shots is considerably more inefficient than feeding the ball into the post and trying to do the bulk of your scoring down low. It’s simple logic, it’s much easier scoring the ball from under the basket, rather than consistently launching it from 25 feet away. Likewise for football, you’ll be a better attacking side if you ensure penetration through the middle and get closer to goal, not by basing your attack from launching the ball into the box from wide areas. That said, I’m not suggesting in the slightest that a team shouldn’t have width. As is the case with basketball (i.e. a good offensive team is one which has strong post-scoring ability, with the added ability to spread the play with consistent and accurate shooters), a good attacking football team is one which penetrates well through the centre, with the ability to spread the play if required (say when opposition teams park the bus in the middle).

This really brings me back to Ross’ original point, and my earlier point about trying to replicate United’s Giggs and Beckam 4-4-2. Why that system was incredibly successful was not because it followed a traditional philosophy of getting early and accurate balls into the box (which they of course did thanks to the impeccable quality of Giggs and Beckam), but also because they had for the entire breadth of the time of their dominance, absolute world class quality in the centre of the park in Keane and Scholes (and also some fantastic attacking footballers who excelled at individual skill and intelligent movement). While the formation might have been a traditional 4-4-2, the implementation of it wasn’t rigid in the slightest, and was in fact characterized by fluidity and movement. In fact, in later years Ferguson’s shown a lot more adaptability in formation as well – the Rooney, Ronaldo era was hardly ever a 4-4-2; if anything it was a more continental, fluid formation they often deployed. It’s thus worth ensuring that if we’re trying to replicate United, we aren’t caught up in trying to replicate the ‘formation’ but rather the style and the personnel. Which included movement and skill up front, and quality and strength in the middle. Which is why Ross’ point is extremely valid, though I tend to think that it’s a little more nuanced. I do believe that the central two are the tactical basis for a team’s solidity in defence and pace of attack, which is why I’m disinclined to have players in central midfield who may be good footballers (like Gerrard) but who might not be inclined to sit in midfield, and more importantly, might not have the ability to play at a more controlled tempo than what is required further up the pitch.
 
Yeah, I think we've been trying to force it with a view to when Gerrard is available, it being our best formation that's tailored around him. That's not really the case anymore and nor should it be as he's clearly on the wain and more often than not struggling with injury and not always available. We need to start looking to the future.

United play more or less the same way, with one of the two just dropping deep when needs be but with the onus on keeping possession. There are times when they've needed a DM though and they've suffered because of it (I remember that happening against us either last season or the one before), so it's not a disposable option, it's something you do need from time to time, particularly against a more robust midfield. Chelsea literally ran through our midfield for most of the game on Saturday and I think that was largely down to Spearing lacking in the ability to maintain possession, and Gerrard struggling to make any real impression in the middle of the park and consequently due to the way he plays coupled with fitness issues, providing nothing in the way of cover. While Shelvey is a bit sluggish at times and more of an offensive player, he dropped to the edge of our box alot last night, won possession and laid it off well.
 
I know we're talking about 442, but how do people feel about trying to implement a midfield three of Hendo, Lucas and Shelvey? We can buy out and out quality for the final third and cover/a different option for the middle of the park.
 
I dont disagree Mark, every now and again a DM is necessary.

But by and large I just like having players on the pitch who give the opposition something to think about and when we dont have enough of them we usually struggle offensively.

Last night we asked Chelsea to deal with Suarez, Carroll, Maxi, Johnson, as well as the threat poised by Henderson and Shelvey from the middle and they didn't cope.
 
Last night we asked Chelsea to deal with Suarez, Carroll, Maxi, Johnson, as well as the threat poised by Henderson and Shelvey from the middle and they didn't cope.

True, but to be fair Chelsea were playing a non-existant midfield and the team overall weren't particularly interested in the game.
 
I was very impressed with them two in the middle as well, especially how disciplined they were, rarely would both be out of position, if Henderson pushed forward Shelvey stayed back and visa versa, it looks like they had a very good understanding. Something else I noticed last night that I haven't really seen much this season was that Henderson was telling some of the players around him where to go, taking a bit of responsibility. Maybe playing next to someone younger than him gave him the confidence to take charge, I hope we see more of it.
 
lets not get carried away with last nights performance from our two CM. Chelsea should have scored 3 or 4 as well, we were very open

If we play two up top then with Lucas and Stevie back where would hendo and Jonjo fit in anyway
 
lets not get carried away with last nights performance from our two CM. Chelsea should have scored 3 or 4 as well, we were very open

If we play two up top then with Lucas and Stevie back where would hendo and Jonjo fit in anyway
And we should have scored 9. We tore them apart.
 
you play with two footballers in the middle of the park then you have to be prepared to be more open as a football team, I personally would welcome it but two bad results in a row and people will be screaming for an out and out holding midfielder.
 
We generally also look good when we actually have a good DM in a three man midfield. Recently Lucas, before that Mascherano and/or Xabi, before that Didi.
Spearing is just incredibly ordinary/poor. Championship player at best.
So come August when we have Lucas back, maybe 3 in the middle won't be bad at all for a lot of games. But I want to see Andy and Luis playing more games together. Wonder how Lucas will do with 2 in the middle?
 
We don't seem to have bought players with a plan to play in any given formation. Its been a bit of a mess throughout this season but last night worked for a change which was nice to see. We won playing 442 last night and we beat Norwich away playing 451. Its good to be able to adapt but im not sure what the long term plan is.
 
I'm always of the opinion you are better off having two players in the middle of the park who are both adapt at attacking as they are defending. you have one who is primerily better at defending partnered with someone who is mainly an attacker it puts too much pressure on the defender to defend and the attacker to attack.
 
I'm always of the opinion you are better off having two players in the middle of the park who are both adapt at attacking as they are defending. you have one who is primerily better at defending partnered with someone who is mainly an attacker it puts too much pressure on the defender to defend and the attacker to attack.

and yet I got constant abuse on here for slating Masherano's benefit to our midfield, the ultimate average passing, cannot create or score for toffee midfield stopper. So much for his midfield talents he is now a centre half.
 
and yet I got constant abuse on here for slating Masherano's benefit to our midfield, the ultimate average passing, cannot create or score for toffee midfield stopper. So much for his midfield talents he is now a centre half.

At Barcelona, the best passing and attacking football team on the planet.
 
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