Pepe's Raise

[Frogfish]

Don't know if this has been posted or not but anyway well worht the money, I've always thought Keepers were grossly under-valued :-

Pepe Reina, the Liverpool goalkeeper, is set to be handed a £95,000-a-week contract in January, making him the Premier League's best paid goalkeeper.

The contract outstrips that of Petr Cech, the Chelsea goalkeeper widely regarded as Reina's main rival for the crown of the best goalkeeper in the Premier League before his recent slump in form, and Manchester United's Edwin van der Sar. It is another demonstration of Liverpool coach Rafa Benitez's faith in Reina, given that the 27-year-old goalkeeper is only halfway through the £60,000-a-week, five-year contract he signed in 2007.

"In England people talked about Petr Cech, and now van der Sar, but Pepe for three or four years now has been at a really good level," Benitez said earlier this year. "This consistency makes him a top-class goalkeeper. I would say he is one of the best 'keepers in the world now.

"When we signed him I said he was the best in Spain and Iker Casillas was doing really well too. Our fans know he's really important, and some journalists also. If they know about football, they can see the difference between Pepe and the other 'keepers."

Liverpool paid around £6 million for Reina in 2005. Despite Benitez's praise he has been unable to dislodge Casillas from the Real Madrid player's position as Spain's number one, but has still collected 16 international caps, including one in a 2-1 win over Greece during Spain's ultimately successful Euro 2008 campaign.

 

[Rosco]

I love him, but I don't like the idea of paying any keeper that amount of money

 

[Fallon]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=36850.msg975296#msg975296 date=1256981033]
I love him, but I don't like the idea of paying any keeper that amount of money
[/quote]

Why not? Torres gos out and gets us points, Pepé goes out and saves us points. There'll still be 3 people in the squad ahead of him on wages, and he has been one of the most emphatic and loyal squad members we've had under Rafa. I don't have a problem with him being the best paid goalie in the prem because anybody who is objective would surely say that he is the best.

 

[Rosco]

Because there's only so much value a goalkeeper can contribute to a team.

I just don't see how a goalkeeper could ever be worth that much.

 

[doctor_mac]

Yeah, great news. Keep our best players happy, and we won't go far wrong. Pepe is part of our spine, and also the soul of the team. Love him.

 

[Frogfish]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=36850.msg975296#msg975296 date=1256981033]
I love him, but I don't like the idea of paying any keeper that amount of money
[/quote]

This is exactly what I was talking about above. IMO only top goal scorers (Torres, Gerrard) are worth more (salary & transfer fee wise) than a great goalkeeper. I've always felt paying 15 to 20M for a top keeper easily worth the expenditure to the team in terms of stability.

Yes strikers can win matches but winning those matches comes on the back of a defence that can not only cost you goals and matches but also change the flow of the game, conceding when on top or a string of saves to keep the team in it when under the cosh.

IMO a top keeper rates just under a top striker.

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=36850.msg975302#msg975302 date=1256981620]
Keep our best players happy, and we won't go far wrong.
[/quote]

Overpay them though and we have no room to add more players to the wage bill.

 

[Fallon]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=36850.msg975301#msg975301 date=1256981617]
Because there's only so much value a goalkeeper can contribute to a team.

I just don't see how a goalkeeper could ever be worth that much.
[/quote]

If a goalkeeper can get MOTM awards (and Pepé must have a fair few in his time with us) then in my book that means he can contribute as much as anybody else on the pitch, it may be situational but so fucking what? I'm sure if he denied Cousin/Bullard (some other Hull numpty) on the last day of the season for us to clinch the title people wouldn't moan about him being on that much (Improbable yeah, but we've lost a title on GD before).

 

[tombrown]

it was goals scored in 89. gd was equal

 

[rage]

that's a lot of money unnecessarily spent imo. if you want to reward him and you must improve his wages why do it by over 50%? i don't think the lad was either expecting or demanding a 50% pay rise, nor in my experience have i ever seen anyone being able to buy loyalty.

 

[Fallon]

[quote author=tombrown link=topic=36850.msg975308#msg975308 date=1256982382]
it was goals scored in 89. gd was equal
[/quote]

After reading it back I realise how it sounds. I really only meant that a title could come down to something considered to be ridiculously improbable, not what difference another goalkeeper may or may not have made.

 

[Frogfish]

[quote author=rage link=topic=36850.msg975310#msg975310 date=1256982685]
that's a lot of money unnecessarily spent imo. if you want to reward him and you must improve his wages why do it by over 50%? i don't think the lad was either expecting or demanding a 50% pay rise, nor in my experience have i ever seen anyone being able to buy loyalty.
[/quote]

Bollocks.

Any player starts looking around if they feel they are under-valued at the club they are at, that's just human nature. There have been rumours that Pepe may look to move back to Spain. Surely by showing him the love that helps to strengthen the bond and therefore his loyalty to the club.

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=rage link=topic=36850.msg975310#msg975310 date=1256982685]
that's a lot of money unnecessarily spent imo. if you want to reward him and you must improve his wages why do it by over 50%? i don't think the lad was either expecting or demanding a 50% pay rise, nor in my experience have i ever seen anyone being able to buy loyalty.
[/quote]

The new 50% tax is your answer.

He'll probably come out with around the same as he gets now once it kicks in.

 

[Dave G]

Schmeichel used to save the mancs around 15 - 18 points a season. Reina saves us roughly the same now. That is the equivalent of Torres scoring the winner in 5 or 6 games. You wouldn't say Torres wasn't worth the money if that was happening would you.

 

[Mystic]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=36850.msg975301#msg975301 date=1256981617]
Because there's only so much value a goalkeeper can contribute to a team.

I just don't see how a goalkeeper could ever be worth that much.
[/quote]

You are joking, please say you are?

To say Pepe isn't worth that is absurd, many times before he's saved our arses and earnt us lots of points, he's one of the few keepers out there who as well as being reliable and someone you can trust in goal, also pulls out some wonder saves and lets us hold on to points by making a wonderful save.

He's worth every penny of that contract.

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=Mystic link=topic=36850.msg975324#msg975324 date=1256984423]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=36850.msg975301#msg975301 date=1256981617]
Because there's only so much value a goalkeeper can contribute to a team.

I just don't see how a goalkeeper could ever be worth that much.
[/quote]

You are joking, please say you are?

To say Pepe isn't worth that is absurd, many times before he's saved our arses and earnt us lots of points, he's one of the few keepers out there who as well as being reliable and someone you can trust in goal, also pulls out some wonder saves and lets us hold on to points by making a wonderful save.

He's worth every penny of that contract.
[/quote]

How do you work that out ?

Really , I'd love to know how you put a monetary value on what he's done for us. Compare it to all the other goalkeepers and see if we're getting value for money.

 

[KopKing]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=36850.msg975332#msg975332 date=1256985304]
[quote author=Mystic link=topic=36850.msg975324#msg975324 date=1256984423]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=36850.msg975301#msg975301 date=1256981617]
Because there's only so much value a goalkeeper can contribute to a team.

I just don't see how a goalkeeper could ever be worth that much.
[/quote]

You are joking, please say you are?

To say Pepe isn't worth that is absurd, many times before he's saved our arses and earnt us lots of points, he's one of the few keepers out there who as well as being reliable and someone you can trust in goal, also pulls out some wonder saves and lets us hold on to points by making a wonderful save.

He's worth every penny of that contract.
[/quote]

How do you work that out ?

Really , I'd love to know how you put a monetary value on what he's done for us. Compare it to all the other goalkeepers and see if we're getting value for money.
[/quote]

I'll tell you how I work out. After Gerrard & Torres, he's the most valuable and irreplaceable member of the squad.

Worth. Every. Fucking. Penny.

 

[Rosco]

Subjective and faulty.

It's like pretty much all of the decisions we've made over the years and the reason why we haven't won the title in fucking ages.

 

[Tinto]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=36850.msg975342#msg975342 date=1256986611]
Subjective and faulty.

It's like pretty much all of the decisions we've made over the years and the reason why we haven't won the title in fucking ages.
[/quote]

So you don't think it would be hard to replace him then?

 

[rage]

[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=36850.msg975316#msg975316 date=1256983294]
[quote author=rage link=topic=36850.msg975310#msg975310 date=1256982685]
that's a lot of money unnecessarily spent imo. if you want to reward him and you must improve his wages why do it by over 50%? i don't think the lad was either expecting or demanding a 50% pay rise, nor in my experience have i ever seen anyone being able to buy loyalty.
[/quote]

Bollocks.

Any player starts looking around if they feel they are under-valued at the club they are at, that's just human nature. There have been rumours that Pepe may look to move back to Spain. Surely by showing him the love that helps to strengthen the bond and therefore his loyalty to the club.
[/quote]

i was talking about my experience. 'bollocks' is your opinion but i've never seen money to buy loyalty - maybe in the short term.

bumped into pepe once, the week after we beat arsenal in the champions league where babel got a penalty. he was shopping with his wife. i got the impression he was a really nice guy. didn't know he was looking for a move back to spain although i think that most of our spanish players see playing in the premier league as a short term stage in their career before they return home. unless you're a local lad i think the days of one club players are over. imo pepe will be gone in 2 or 3 more seasons regardless of how much we pay him.

rosco has it right with the 50% tax rate. this puts the take home pay into context.

probably need to ask our resident conservative this - what are the tories plans regarding the 50% rate - imo it's bad for attracting the best regardless of the industry.

 

[Fabio]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=36850.msg975332#msg975332 date=1256985304]
[quote author=Mystic link=topic=36850.msg975324#msg975324 date=1256984423]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=36850.msg975301#msg975301 date=1256981617]
Because there's only so much value a goalkeeper can contribute to a team.

I just don't see how a goalkeeper could ever be worth that much.
[/quote]

You are joking, please say you are?

To say Pepe isn't worth that is absurd, many times before he's saved our arses and earnt us lots of points, he's one of the few keepers out there who as well as being reliable and someone you can trust in goal, also pulls out some wonder saves and lets us hold on to points by making a wonderful save.

He's worth every penny of that contract.
[/quote]

How do you work that out ?

Really , I'd love to know how you put a monetary value on what he's done for us. Compare it to all the other goalkeepers and see if we're getting value for money.
[/quote]

Give me 10 minutes

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=Tinto link=topic=36850.msg975344#msg975344 date=1256986672]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=36850.msg975342#msg975342 date=1256986611]
Subjective and faulty.

It's like pretty much all of the decisions we've made over the years and the reason why we haven't won the title in fucking ages.
[/quote]

So you don't think it would be hard to replace him then?
[/quote]

We could easily replace him with someone cheap and not as good as him.

I'm in a curious position here, I've been the biggest Pepe fan on this site for years and abused everyone whoever had something good/stupid to say about Petr Cech.

The question I'm asking is whether or not this is the best use of 95k a week. Given our circumstances, is it not possible that we'd be better off with a keeper not quite as good as Pepe, say on 50k a week and a decent back up to Torres on 45k a week ?

 

[Ryan]

And what happens if that striker on 45K turns out to be any good, and after a year wants a raise? Do we flog him too and save the pennies for even more back-up players?

This is what happens when you've got World Class players Ross, they generally command world class wages too.

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=36850.msg975361#msg975361 date=1256987921]
And what happens if that striker on 45K turns out to be any good, and after a year wants a raise? Do we flog him too and save the pennies for even more back-up players?

This is what happens when you've got World Class players Ross, they generally command world class wages too.

[/quote]

Depends on the situation Ryan.

When working with limited resources every single decision is important, if you look at what we're reportedly paying our top earners it takes up a big chunk of the wage bill, we seem to working off a wage budget of around 95m a year.

Pepe now accounts for nearly 6% of that. If his performances provide value for that in the coming years then I'll have no complaints. But if in 3 years time when Pepe hits the wrong side of thirty, has an injury or two and loses the explosiveness in his step we'll have half the keeper we have now at a whopping 95k a week.

 

[Squiggles]

The bottom line is, when we buy fuck all players this summer because we're skint, I wonder if we'll look upon handing out such massive wage increases.

I take Ryan's point but given how poor we allegedly are, I'm surprised we're the club handing out record contracts. The debate isn't whether he's worth the supposed the deal. The debate's about why we're the first club to buck the trend, and whether we can afford to do so.

 

[Frogfish]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=36850.msg975363#msg975363 date=1256988342]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=36850.msg975361#msg975361 date=1256987921]
And what happens if that striker on 45K turns out to be any good, and after a year wants a raise? Do we flog him too and save the pennies for even more back-up players?

This is what happens when you've got World Class players Ross, they generally command world class wages too.

[/quote]

Depends on the situation Ryan.

When working with limited resources every single decision is important, if you look at what we're reportedly paying our top earners it takes up a big chunk of the wage bill, we seem to working off a wage budget of around 95m a year.

Pepe now accounts for nearly 6% of that. If his performances provide value for that in the coming years then I'll have no complaints. But if in 3 years time when Pepe hits the wrong side of thirty, has an injury or two and loses the explosiveness in his step we'll have half the keeper we have now at a whopping 95k a week.

[/quote]

Pepe is hardly likely he'll lose it all by the ripe old age of 30 - especially since keepers improve with age and regularly play until 35 +

 

[KopKing]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=36850.msg975361#msg975361 date=1256987921]
And what happens if that striker on 45K turns out to be any good, and after a year wants a raise? Do we flog him too and save the pennies for even more back-up players?

This is what happens when you've got World Class players Ross, they generally command world class wages too.

[/quote]

Well said. Some people just don't get it.

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=36850.msg975366#msg975366 date=1256988588]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=36850.msg975363#msg975363 date=1256988342]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=36850.msg975361#msg975361 date=1256987921]
And what happens if that striker on 45K turns out to be any good, and after a year wants a raise? Do we flog him too and save the pennies for even more back-up players?

This is what happens when you've got World Class players Ross, they generally command world class wages too.

[/quote]

Depends on the situation Ryan.

When working with limited resources every single decision is important, if you look at what we're reportedly paying our top earners it takes up a big chunk of the wage bill, we seem to working off a wage budget of around 95m a year.

Pepe now accounts for nearly 6% of that. If his performances provide value for that in the coming years then I'll have no complaints. But if in 3 years time when Pepe hits the wrong side of thirty, has an injury or two and loses the explosiveness in his step we'll have half the keeper we have now at a whopping 95k a week.

[/quote]

Pepe is hardly likely he'll lose it all by the ripe old age of 30 - especially since keepers improve with age and regularly play until 35 +
[/quote]

That's the sort of generalisation that costs people a lot of money Froggie.

Is Cech a better keeper now than he as 3 years ago ?
Van Der Sar is still a capable Premiership keeper, but he's not as good as he was 7 or 8 years ago.

The reason Pepe is so good right now is because of his explosive power, it gives him a range and reactions that no other goalkeeper in the Premiership can match. That isn't the sort of thing that improves with age.

 

[Frogfish]

[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=36850.msg975364#msg975364 date=1256988437]
The bottom line is, when we buy fuck all players this summer because we're skint, I wonder if we'll look upon handing out such massive wage increases.

I take Ryan's point but given how poor we allegedly are, I'm surprised we're the club handing out record contracts. The debate isn't whether he's worth the supposed the deal. The debate's about why we're the first club to buck the trend, and whether we can afford to do so.
[/quote]

Petr Cech : £ 90,000
VdS : £ 95,680.00

Pepe's salary is now where it should be.

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=36850.msg975363#msg975363 date=1256988342]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=36850.msg975361#msg975361 date=1256987921]
And what happens if that striker on 45K turns out to be any good, and after a year wants a raise? Do we flog him too and save the pennies for even more back-up players?

This is what happens when you've got World Class players Ross, they generally command world class wages too.

[/quote]

Depends on the situation Ryan.

When working with limited resources every single decision is important, if you look at what we're reportedly paying our top earners it takes up a big chunk of the wage bill, we seem to working off a wage budget of around 95m a year.

Pepe now accounts for nearly 6% of that. If his performances provide value for that in the coming years then I'll have no complaints. But if in 3 years time when Pepe hits the wrong side of thirty, has an injury or two and loses the explosiveness in his step we'll have half the keeper we have now at a whopping 95k a week.


[/quote]

Most of your argument is based on hypotheticals, and doomsday scenarions Ross. Let's work on what we know:

- He's the best goalkeeper in the world
- His mates have either left or are looking to leave for a variety of reasons
- He's the best goalkeeper we've had since Clemence
- Top drawer goalkeepers can't be replaced easily
- We don't have enough World Class players

Now we could work off the pretence that he might get injured, might lose form, might become injured in 3 years time and apply that to contract decision-making from now on, and see where that gets us.

Not too far is my guess.