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Pako Ayesteran

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[quote author=Rosco link=topic=42671.msg1214467#msg1214467 date=1289296130]
Fark you've got everything wrong. Again.

There is no logical fallacy.
[/quote]

We haven't won anything since we bought Torres.

HMMMMMM.
 
[quote author=Farkmaster link=topic=42671.msg1214485#msg1214485 date=1289297548]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=42671.msg1214467#msg1214467 date=1289296130]
Fark you've got everything wrong. Again.

There is no logical fallacy.
[/quote]

We haven't won anything since we bought Torres.

HMMMMMM.
[/quote]

ha ha
 
I'm not sure why you're laughing, Neil.

You're so all over the place in this thread that I don't think anyone knows what you think.

Describing it as a 'logical fallacy' is a bit of a contradiction though.

It's a logical supposition which is plausible, even if it is totally unproven.

Hardly makes it a fallacy.

I should be on 'Mythbusters' 8)
 
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=42671.msg1214490#msg1214490 date=1289298903]
I'm not sure why you're laughing, Neil.

You're so all over the place in this thread that I don't think anyone knows what you think.

Describing it as a 'logical fallacy' is a bit of a contradiction though.

It's a logical supposition which is plausible, even if it is totally unproven.

Hardly makes it a fallacy.

I should be on 'Mythbusters' 8)
[/quote]

all over the place? in what way? I've said whilst I think pako and rafa were a good combination I don't think pako leaving (by itself) is the reason rafa got progressively worse because although we did dip, at one stage we attained a second place finish.
 
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=42671.msg1214490#msg1214490 date=1289298903]
I'm not sure why you're laughing, Neil.

You're so all over the place in this thread that I don't think anyone knows what you think.

Describing it as a 'logical fallacy' is a bit of a contradiction though.

It's a logical supposition which is plausible, even if it is totally unproven.

Hardly makes it a fallacy.

I should be on 'Mythbusters' 8)
[/quote]

To make the argument that X with Y won, whereas X without Y didn't, given a tiny data set, and a host of other changing variables, is the very definition of cum hoc ergo propter hoc.

Anyway, this is pointless. We all have our biases, I tend to bristle a bit when we tear down those who I believe have been good for us, and Rosco's feelings on Rafa are quite transparent.
 
[quote author=Farkmaster link=topic=42671.msg1214496#msg1214496 date=1289299598]
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=42671.msg1214490#msg1214490 date=1289298903]
I'm not sure why you're laughing, Neil.

You're so all over the place in this thread that I don't think anyone knows what you think.

Describing it as a 'logical fallacy' is a bit of a contradiction though.

It's a logical supposition which is plausible, even if it is totally unproven.

Hardly makes it a fallacy.

I should be on 'Mythbusters' 8)
[/quote]

To make the argument that X with Y won, whereas X without Y didn't, given a tiny data set, and a host of other changing variables, is the very definition of cum hoc ergo propter hoc.

Anyway, this is pointless. We all have our biases, I tend to bristle a bit when we tear down those who I believe have been good for us, and Rosco's feelings on Rafa are quite transparent.

[/quote]


i had no idea you were welsh farkmaster.
 
Had to look it up 8)

Either argument is hard to prove, true.

Rafa's transfers did worsen after Ayesteran left; as to whether that was the reason is hard to say, though it is plausible.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42671.msg1214492#msg1214492 date=1289299193]
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=42671.msg1214490#msg1214490 date=1289298903]
I'm not sure why you're laughing, Neil.

You're so all over the place in this thread that I don't think anyone knows what you think.

Describing it as a 'logical fallacy' is a bit of a contradiction though.

It's a logical supposition which is plausible, even if it is totally unproven.

Hardly makes it a fallacy.

I should be on 'Mythbusters' 8)
[/quote]

all over the place? in what way? I've said whilst I think pako and rafa were a good combination I don't think pako leaving (by itself) is the reason rafa got progressively worse because although we did dip, at one stage we attained a second place finish.
[/quote]

Well, you initially thought Pako's departure was damaging to Rafa, then you thought it wasn't(because Rafa managed a 2nd place), then you ignore Fabio's mention of the 7th place (which I think Fabio mentioned to show that using any table finish as being indicative of Pako's influence is inaccurate), then you say they had a good combination and wish he stayed, and then say that it didnt matter anyway because of the 2nd place.

So I don't know if you think he was good or bad for us 😉
 
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=42671.msg1214501#msg1214501 date=1289300091]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42671.msg1214492#msg1214492 date=1289299193]
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=42671.msg1214490#msg1214490 date=1289298903]
I'm not sure why you're laughing, Neil.

You're so all over the place in this thread that I don't think anyone knows what you think.

Describing it as a 'logical fallacy' is a bit of a contradiction though.

It's a logical supposition which is plausible, even if it is totally unproven.

Hardly makes it a fallacy.

I should be on 'Mythbusters' 8)
[/quote]

all over the place? in what way? I've said whilst I think pako and rafa were a good combination I don't think pako leaving (by itself) is the reason rafa got progressively worse because although we did dip, at one stage we attained a second place finish.
[/quote]

Well, you initially thought Pako's departure was damaging to Rafa, then you thought it wasn't(because Rafa managed a 2nd place), then you ignore Fabio's mention of the 7th place (which I think Fabio mentioned to show that using any table finish as being indicative of Pako's influence is inaccurate), then you say they had a good combination and wish he stayed, and then say that it didnt matter anyway because of the 2nd place.

So I don't know if you think he was good or bad for us 😉
[/quote]


i think he was saying that although they did seem to work well together and ideally that would've cotinued, the fact that he had his best league season after he went suggests that his presence wasn't of critical importance. simple enough, surely?
 
Well, yes...if you're prepared to accept that league finish is the best indicator of Pako's influence.

Fair enough,pete.
 
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=42671.msg1214506#msg1214506 date=1289300360]
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=42671.msg1214501#msg1214501 date=1289300091]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42671.msg1214492#msg1214492 date=1289299193]
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=42671.msg1214490#msg1214490 date=1289298903]
I'm not sure why you're laughing, Neil.

You're so all over the place in this thread that I don't think anyone knows what you think.

Describing it as a 'logical fallacy' is a bit of a contradiction though.

It's a logical supposition which is plausible, even if it is totally unproven.

Hardly makes it a fallacy.

I should be on 'Mythbusters' 8)
[/quote]

all over the place? in what way? I've said whilst I think pako and rafa were a good combination I don't think pako leaving (by itself) is the reason rafa got progressively worse because although we did dip, at one stage we attained a second place finish.
[/quote]

Well, you initially thought Pako's departure was damaging to Rafa, then you thought it wasn't(because Rafa managed a 2nd place), then you ignore Fabio's mention of the 7th place (which I think Fabio mentioned to show that using any table finish as being indicative of Pako's influence is inaccurate), then you say they had a good combination and wish he stayed, and then say that it didnt matter anyway because of the 2nd place.

So I don't know if you think he was good or bad for us 😉
[/quote]


i think he was saying that although they did seem to work well together and ideally that would've cotinued, the fact that he had his best league season after he went suggests that his presence wasn't of critical importance. simple enough, surely?
[/quote]

That is exactly what I am saying, peter.
I am going to run my posts through 'peterfish' from now on. 🙂
 
Noone knows what went on between Benitez and Pako, or what the reasons for the departure were.

Its true that on the face of it we won no trophies and got to no finals after Pako left the club, whereas we won 2 trophies and got to another major final during the three seasons he was at the club, but I guess that could be pure coincidence.

Lots of other things would have happened during that time too.
 
Our transfers went to shit after Paco left, which left Benitez with a weak squad, and a team which didn't want to play for him.

I don't know how good Paco was, but the above is indisputable.
 
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=42671.msg1214533#msg1214533 date=1289302372]
I thought Pako was more of a fitness coach than the man behind all our succesful transfers?
[/quote]

I thought so too actually.
 
He was rafas go to guy, and respected his opinions on players. However a combination of rafas stubbornness, pacos need to progess and differences of opinions caused too many issues.
 
[quote author=Fabio link=topic=42671.msg1214536#msg1214536 date=1289302766]
He was rafas go to guy, and respected his opinions on players. However a combination of rafas stubbornness, pacos need to progess and differences of opinions caused too many issues.
[/quote]

According to...
 
[quote author=Fabio link=topic=42671.msg1214536#msg1214536 date=1289302766]
He was rafas go to guy, and respected his opinions on players. However a combination of rafas stubbornness, pacos need to progess and differences of opinions caused too many issues.
[/quote]

We don't know any of that.
 
I'm sure it was all said not long after benitez joined us? He brought paco to 3 clubs with him, if it was simply a matter of a fitness coach then what's the point in that? if he was simply a colleague then why was such a deal made of his departure

The reasons for departure aren't clear, hence why I mentioned surely the 3 most plausible
 
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=42671.msg1214529#msg1214529 date=1289302249]
Our transfers went to shit after Paco left, which left Benitez with a weak squad, and a team which didn't want to play for him.

I don't know how good Paco was, but the above is indisputable.


[/quote]

didn't we sign torres after paco left? I think rafa's transfers have been hit and miss for the entire time he was here so you can't lay the blame on transfers on the departure of pako.
 
Maybe he brought Paco to three 3 clubs with him, as he was a good fitness coach?

I'll be honest with you, I'm sure he wasn't just a fitness coach, and that he and Rafa discussed other things too. But the fact that everyone seems to attribute all of the good signings we made over his time here, directly to our "fitness coach" seems a little strange to me.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42671.msg1214554#msg1214554 date=1289304045]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=42671.msg1214529#msg1214529 date=1289302249]
Our transfers went to shit after Paco left, which left Benitez with a weak squad, and a team which didn't want to play for him.

I don't know how good Paco was, but the above is indisputable.


[/quote]

didn't we sign torres after paco left? I think rafa's transfers have been hit and miss for the entire time he was here so you can't lay the blame on transfers on the departure of pako.
[/quote]

I don't agree. They certainly got worse and players went under-researched and it's proved catastrophic for us really. It could of been because Rafa had to spend more time with the players rather than spending his time scouting - but either way it adds up to the same thing.

I'd have him back in an instant.
 
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=42671.msg1214575#msg1214575 date=1289306306]
I'd have him back in an instant.
[/quote]

Who else would you employ to work behind the scenes?
 
There is some utter madness posted on this forum (and others) regarding transfers isn't there?

The really good transfers are down to Benitez, yet the poor ones tend to be blamed on Parry.

The high transfer fees and the reason why we took so long to ever sign players tends to be Parry's fault, yet us selling bad signings on quickly and at a profit is something Benitez did well.

Then there are whispers about how bad our scouting department must be, as if that is an entirely separate entity at the club. And now we suddenly have Pako thrown into the mix as well!
 
[quote author=keniget link=topic=42671.msg1214578#msg1214578 date=1289306860]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=42671.msg1214575#msg1214575 date=1289306306]
I'd have him back in an instant.
[/quote]

Who else would you employ to work behind the scenes?

[/quote]


personally i think we should get brian kidd in as well, he won loads of titles for alex ferguson. there's no real proof of that, but it is scientific fact.
 
Didn't Pako become friendly with Mourinho which angered Rafa?? Wasn't that a rumour doing the rounds at one stage.

I agree with whoever said Pako was regarded as the fitness coach. I remember reading about his fitness tests which ended with a tough endurance run up 'Pako Hill' .
 
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=42671.msg1214581#msg1214581 date=1289307202]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=42671.msg1214578#msg1214578 date=1289306860]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=42671.msg1214575#msg1214575 date=1289306306]
I'd have him back in an instant.
[/quote]

Who else would you employ to work behind the scenes?

[/quote]


personally i think we should get brian kidd in as well, he won loads of titles for alex ferguson. there's no real proof of that, but it is scientific fact.
[/quote]


Ha, that's a good point in fairness.

It's pretty difficult to gauge exactly what role was played by anyone, be it assistant managers or fitness coaches.

Guess people believe what they want to believe.
 
I think a little more of an argument can be made for an assistant manager than a fitness coach.

But it's really down to the manager, he decides on who his team is, both on the field and in the background, and hence should get the praise (and criticism) for how it performs.
 
Former Liverpool fitness coach, Gerard Nus, has become the first Spaniard to take on a coaching role in South Korea. He has been appointed as the assistant manager of the Chunman Dragons, with aspirations of becoming the K League Champions when the season gets underway in March.

Meanwhile, former Liverpool assistant coach, Pako Ayestarán, has turned down the role of first team coach at Romanian side Cluj, in favour of other offers that may be in the pipeline. Since leaving Valencia in the summer, Ayestarán has returned to his home in England and has received offers from West Ham, Southampton and Al-Ahly in Qatar.
Click to expand...
 
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