Pako Ayesteran
- Thread starter Hansern
- Start date
- Latest activity Latest activity:
- Status
I used to think pako leaving was a major reason for rafa losing his way a little but season before last we came second so we can cross out that theory.
[quote author=Fabio link=topic=42671.msg1214393#msg1214393 date=1289289799]
We also finished 7th. does that mean the it's back on the table?
[/quote]
basically rafa showed he was capable of challenging without him (pako).
We also finished 7th. does that mean the it's back on the table?
[/quote]
basically rafa showed he was capable of challenging without him (pako).
[quote author=Fabio link=topic=42671.msg1214397#msg1214397 date=1289290258]
He also showed he was incapable of managing the squad effectively and keeping the players happy.
[/quote]
utimately pako leaving wasn't as imprtant as I used to think it was.
He also showed he was incapable of managing the squad effectively and keeping the players happy.
[/quote]
utimately pako leaving wasn't as imprtant as I used to think it was.
[quote author=Fabio link=topic=42671.msg1214406#msg1214406 date=1289290605]
I think pako leaving exposed the weaknesses of benitez. The players respected pako greatly and I don't doubt some attitudes may have changed when he left
[/quote]
I think pako was on a level footing with rafa so rafa would listen to him more. I don't think it's in rafa's interests to be surrounded by yes men.
I think pako leaving exposed the weaknesses of benitez. The players respected pako greatly and I don't doubt some attitudes may have changed when he left
[/quote]
I think pako was on a level footing with rafa so rafa would listen to him more. I don't think it's in rafa's interests to be surrounded by yes men.
The players loved him, and I do think Rafa did veer gradually towards totalitarianism once Pako, a man he had shared every decision with previously, was sent packing.
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=42671.msg1214410#msg1214410 date=1289290745]
The players loved him, and I do think Rafa did veer gradually towards totalitarianism once Pako, a man he had shared every decision with previously, was sent packing.
[/quote]
and to be fair two seasons later we finished higher than any position we had when pako was still at the club.
The players loved him, and I do think Rafa did veer gradually towards totalitarianism once Pako, a man he had shared every decision with previously, was sent packing.
[/quote]
and to be fair two seasons later we finished higher than any position we had when pako was still at the club.
G[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42671.msg1214409#msg1214409 date=1289290725]
[quote author=Fabio link=topic=42671.msg1214406#msg1214406 date=1289290605]
I think pako leaving exposed the weaknesses of benitez. The players respected pako greatly and I don't doubt some attitudes may have changed when he lef
[/quote]
I think pako was on a level footing with rafa so rafa would listen to him more. I don't think it's in rafa's interests to be surrounded by yes men.
[/quote]
I very much doubt someone as strong welled as pako was a yes man. I think doc has it spot on. S dissenting voice would never go elk with someone like benitez who meticulously planned everything. If pako continued to say "no fthat wouldn't work", benitez wouldn't stand for it
[quote author=Fabio link=topic=42671.msg1214406#msg1214406 date=1289290605]
I think pako leaving exposed the weaknesses of benitez. The players respected pako greatly and I don't doubt some attitudes may have changed when he lef
[/quote]
I think pako was on a level footing with rafa so rafa would listen to him more. I don't think it's in rafa's interests to be surrounded by yes men.
[/quote]
I very much doubt someone as strong welled as pako was a yes man. I think doc has it spot on. S dissenting voice would never go elk with someone like benitez who meticulously planned everything. If pako continued to say "no fthat wouldn't work", benitez wouldn't stand for it
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42671.msg1214413#msg1214413 date=1289291010]
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=42671.msg1214410#msg1214410 date=1289290745]
The players loved him, and I do think Rafa did veer gradually towards totalitarianism once Pako, a man he had shared every decision with previously, was sent packing.
[/quote]
and to be fair two seasons later we finished higher than any position we had when pako was still at the club.
[/quote]
And ti be fair we also finished 7th.
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=42671.msg1214410#msg1214410 date=1289290745]
The players loved him, and I do think Rafa did veer gradually towards totalitarianism once Pako, a man he had shared every decision with previously, was sent packing.
[/quote]
and to be fair two seasons later we finished higher than any position we had when pako was still at the club.
[/quote]
And ti be fair we also finished 7th.
[quote author=Fabio link=topic=42671.msg1214414#msg1214414 date=1289291055]
G[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42671.msg1214409#msg1214409 date=1289290725]
[quote author=Fabio link=topic=42671.msg1214406#msg1214406 date=1289290605]
I think pako leaving exposed the weaknesses of benitez. The players respected pako greatly and I don't doubt some attitudes may have changed when he lef
[/quote]
I think pako was on a level footing with rafa so rafa would listen to him more. I don't think it's in rafa's interests to be surrounded by yes men.
[/quote]
I very much doubt someone as strong welled as pako was a yes man. I think doc has it spot on. S dissenting voice would never go elk with someone like benitez who meticulously planned everything. If pako continued to say "no fthat wouldn't work", benitez wouldn't stand for it
[/quote]
I was saying pako 'ISN'T' a yes man and rafa has surrounded himself with yes men since pako was shipped out.
G[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42671.msg1214409#msg1214409 date=1289290725]
[quote author=Fabio link=topic=42671.msg1214406#msg1214406 date=1289290605]
I think pako leaving exposed the weaknesses of benitez. The players respected pako greatly and I don't doubt some attitudes may have changed when he lef
[/quote]
I think pako was on a level footing with rafa so rafa would listen to him more. I don't think it's in rafa's interests to be surrounded by yes men.
[/quote]
I very much doubt someone as strong welled as pako was a yes man. I think doc has it spot on. S dissenting voice would never go elk with someone like benitez who meticulously planned everything. If pako continued to say "no fthat wouldn't work", benitez wouldn't stand for it
[/quote]
I was saying pako 'ISN'T' a yes man and rafa has surrounded himself with yes men since pako was shipped out.
[quote author=Richey link=topic=42671.msg1214430#msg1214430 date=1289291806]
So Neil, are you saying that Benitez was better off without Pako or that he was worse off without Pako because he surrounded himself with yes men? Bit confused.
[/quote]
I'm saying the combination of pako and rafa was a good one but wasn't the be all and end all as rafa achieved 2nd in the league something rafa didn't manage whilst pako was there. obviously I would have preferred if pako had stayed.
So Neil, are you saying that Benitez was better off without Pako or that he was worse off without Pako because he surrounded himself with yes men? Bit confused.
[/quote]
I'm saying the combination of pako and rafa was a good one but wasn't the be all and end all as rafa achieved 2nd in the league something rafa didn't manage whilst pako was there. obviously I would have preferred if pako had stayed.
The we finished second so we can discount any influence Pako had is incredibly simplistic and a bit nuts. There's a fairly clear distinction between our signings while Pako was involved and when he wasn't, the really nutty ones occurred when there was nobody else to influence Rafa. Our injury problems intensified after he left too.
Has anyone been following Serie A? Latest reports have Moratti criticising Rafa in the press, Inter having drawn their last three home games and having their lowest number of goals at this point of the season for a decade.
Was Pako at Valencia with Rafa? Has Rafa won anything without him?
Has anyone been following Serie A? Latest reports have Moratti criticising Rafa in the press, Inter having drawn their last three home games and having their lowest number of goals at this point of the season for a decade.
Was Pako at Valencia with Rafa? Has Rafa won anything without him?
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=42671.msg1214446#msg1214446 date=1289293677]
The we finished second so we can discount any influence Pako had is incredibly simplistic and a bit nuts. There's a fairly clear distinction between our signings while Pako was involved and when he wasn't, the really nutty ones occurred when there was nobody else to influence Rafa. Our injury problems intensified after he left too.
Has anyone been following Serie A? Latest reports have Moratti criticising Rafa in the press, Inter having drawn their last three home games and having their lowest number of goals at this point of the season for a decade.
Was Pako at Valencia with Rafa? Has Rafa won anything without him?
[/quote]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation
The we finished second so we can discount any influence Pako had is incredibly simplistic and a bit nuts. There's a fairly clear distinction between our signings while Pako was involved and when he wasn't, the really nutty ones occurred when there was nobody else to influence Rafa. Our injury problems intensified after he left too.
Has anyone been following Serie A? Latest reports have Moratti criticising Rafa in the press, Inter having drawn their last three home games and having their lowest number of goals at this point of the season for a decade.
Was Pako at Valencia with Rafa? Has Rafa won anything without him?
[/quote]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation
I think it's very likely that Ayesteran's departure did have a terrible effect on Rafa, in that there wasnt anyone to consult on strategies or transfers...though in fairness, Rafa didint strike me as a consultational type and probably wouldnt stand for opposing views.
But in hindsight, there was some talk at the time about him being chummy with Chelsea and Mourinho..not sure exactly what transpired but it's possible Rafa didnt have much choice but to sack him.
As for Valencia, most good managers have good people backing them up just like Paisley backed up Shanks.
But in hindsight, there was some talk at the time about him being chummy with Chelsea and Mourinho..not sure exactly what transpired but it's possible Rafa didnt have much choice but to sack him.
As for Valencia, most good managers have good people backing them up just like Paisley backed up Shanks.
it does in this instance. We danced this dance last year too Fark, remember you were arguing that Rafas recruitment of fitness coaches from a team with a horrendous injury history had nothing to do with our sudden increase in soft tissue injuries?
The coaches have since been sacked.
The coaches have since been sacked.
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=42671.msg1214453#msg1214453 date=1289294312]
it does in this instance. We danced this dance last year too Fark, remember you were arguing that Rafas recruitment of fitness coaches from a team with a horrendous injury history had nothing to do with our sudden increase in soft tissue injuries?
The coaches have since been sacked.
[/quote]
Alright, but I'm not sure I know the steps.
Have I got this right?
1) You resort to a logical fallacy which just so happens to suit your agenda
2) I query the fallacy, but perhaps not the conclusions
3) You then support the fallacy by invoking the precedent of a prior reliance on logical fallacy
4) Then you reiterate the logical fallacy.
So what do I do now?
We don't really know why Rafa struggled so much toward the end, especially given that he tends toward inconsistency, and the new constraints he found himself in, nor do we know Pako's involvement in scouting, or purchasing in the detail required to make such a determination.
I'd certainly welcome him back, and he seemed to have the respect of all the players. However, we all know why you would suggest Rafa won nothing without Pako, and it's because for some reason you resent Rafa's success, and seek to diminish it at every turn, even though much of it was for your club.
it does in this instance. We danced this dance last year too Fark, remember you were arguing that Rafas recruitment of fitness coaches from a team with a horrendous injury history had nothing to do with our sudden increase in soft tissue injuries?
The coaches have since been sacked.
[/quote]
Alright, but I'm not sure I know the steps.
Have I got this right?
1) You resort to a logical fallacy which just so happens to suit your agenda
2) I query the fallacy, but perhaps not the conclusions
3) You then support the fallacy by invoking the precedent of a prior reliance on logical fallacy
4) Then you reiterate the logical fallacy.
So what do I do now?
We don't really know why Rafa struggled so much toward the end, especially given that he tends toward inconsistency, and the new constraints he found himself in, nor do we know Pako's involvement in scouting, or purchasing in the detail required to make such a determination.
I'd certainly welcome him back, and he seemed to have the respect of all the players. However, we all know why you would suggest Rafa won nothing without Pako, and it's because for some reason you resent Rafa's success, and seek to diminish it at every turn, even though much of it was for your club.
[quote author=keniget link=topic=42671.msg1214462#msg1214462 date=1289295331]
We don't really know how good this guy is or what kind of respect he has in footballing circles. Almost every post in this thread has been made on the back of speculation and / or assumptions.
[/quote]
Correct.
We don't really know how good this guy is or what kind of respect he has in footballing circles. Almost every post in this thread has been made on the back of speculation and / or assumptions.
[/quote]
Correct.
Pako got sacked because Rafa felt betrayed by him because of his friendship with Mourinho. It had nothing to do with his work performance. Rafa just felt that he couldn't trust him.
It was a shame that their relationship ended on that note because he was doing sterling work with us up to that point. The team sufferered after that and so did Rafa to a degree.
It was a shame that their relationship ended on that note because he was doing sterling work with us up to that point. The team sufferered after that and so did Rafa to a degree.
[quote author=Irish_Red link=topic=42671.msg1214470#msg1214470 date=1289296523]
Wasn't the signing of Babell a major reason for the parting of the ways. Pako didn't rate him at all and wanted Drenthe instead.
[/quote]
ha ha because drenthe is quality.
Wasn't the signing of Babell a major reason for the parting of the ways. Pako didn't rate him at all and wanted Drenthe instead.
[/quote]
ha ha because drenthe is quality.
Lots of guessing going on in this thread. Happily it's allowed to be taken as the truth in forums.
For my own part I think that Pako left because he had unfulfilled ambitions and has now discovered that not everyone shares his opinions on his value.
For my own part I think that Pako left because he had unfulfilled ambitions and has now discovered that not everyone shares his opinions on his value.
- Status
