Origi
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He may very well be the next Costa at 26 but the key is how much indulgence will he require for him to reach that state? Yes, a young striker will have his ups and downs and I don't think most young strikers fit the profile of Owen or Fowler who were pretty much top 3 strikers in their league on their debut.
For all we know, Origi may need constant game time to reach the Costa at 26 level. Can we afford to provide him that much leeway in such an important position? Based on his performance in the second half of the last season, the answer would have been yes, he is worth the hassle. This season, the answer is a definite no. I was a big fan of his at the start of the season but now I have my doubts.
While I understand he is young and needs time to develop, he needs to show more during transition time also. Each striker is unique in the way they develop, the rate of development, and the external factors which affect the rate of development. So we need to be careful while extrapolating from other examples also.
Henry was played as a winger. He was converted to a striker and he delivered 26 goals in his first season in the PL. There was a valid reason why he was a poor striker before his first season at Arsenal, he was not played as one. I don't think Drogba was prolific in his first 2 seasons for Chelsea, but he was absolutely pivotal to the way they played. Diego Costa spent a lot of time on loan and then later becoming an effective attacking midfielder for A. Madrid before transitioning into a striker. None of these players spent a lot of time "learning on the job" in a club with top 4 ambitions in the premier league. Also Drogba and Costa during their development phases played in primarily defensive teams which makes it even more difficult for a striker. Origi does not have that excuse.
He is only 21 but this is also his fourth season in top flight football and he has over 100 games under his belt. Even if he does not score 15-20 goals every season he needs to make himself useful in other aspects of his play.
A strikers contribution to the team is the least subtle and the most obvious. It is not like a midfielder where the more cerebral fan might appreciate his positioning and interceptions which is not obvious to some one like me. If there is debate on a strikers contribution, often the striker is not good enough.
For all we know, Origi may need constant game time to reach the Costa at 26 level. Can we afford to provide him that much leeway in such an important position? Based on his performance in the second half of the last season, the answer would have been yes, he is worth the hassle. This season, the answer is a definite no. I was a big fan of his at the start of the season but now I have my doubts.
While I understand he is young and needs time to develop, he needs to show more during transition time also. Each striker is unique in the way they develop, the rate of development, and the external factors which affect the rate of development. So we need to be careful while extrapolating from other examples also.
Henry was played as a winger. He was converted to a striker and he delivered 26 goals in his first season in the PL. There was a valid reason why he was a poor striker before his first season at Arsenal, he was not played as one. I don't think Drogba was prolific in his first 2 seasons for Chelsea, but he was absolutely pivotal to the way they played. Diego Costa spent a lot of time on loan and then later becoming an effective attacking midfielder for A. Madrid before transitioning into a striker. None of these players spent a lot of time "learning on the job" in a club with top 4 ambitions in the premier league. Also Drogba and Costa during their development phases played in primarily defensive teams which makes it even more difficult for a striker. Origi does not have that excuse.
He is only 21 but this is also his fourth season in top flight football and he has over 100 games under his belt. Even if he does not score 15-20 goals every season he needs to make himself useful in other aspects of his play.
A strikers contribution to the team is the least subtle and the most obvious. It is not like a midfielder where the more cerebral fan might appreciate his positioning and interceptions which is not obvious to some one like me. If there is debate on a strikers contribution, often the striker is not good enough.
Why should he score 'many goals' in Italy or Spain?
They're both easier leagues.
Drogba had 32 goals in his first 109 games. 12 in his first 64. But then he was close to a goal every 2 games thereafter.
So is France
Should we just sell him then?
Not a criticism Hansern but we cannot take such statistics based on age and translate it to Origi. Drogba started his professional football career much later than Origi. I think he was 21 when he signed his first professional contract. He had a far more complicated life shuttling between two continents when he was growing up. Origi had a more traditional route - youth academy, first team player, etc. Origi had played more than 100 games at the top level by 21 - the time Drogba signed his first pro contract.
How many goals do you think he will score this season?
How many goals do you think he is capable of scoring in a season?
(I'm guessing you'll say '15-20' which is your usual go-to number based on fuck all)
Peekay has laid it out nicely above him.
He might well turn out to be good but can we meet our targets while indulging in giving him game time his development needs.
Will he actually be worth developing ? What's his ceiling ?
I know because he's played in France, black and not prolific early in his career people throw out Drogba as a good comparison but it doesn't seem realistic does it ?
Agreed, and I'm not looking for similarities but it also shows that you can develop later and still have a fantastic career, even if you're not scoring 20 goals per season in your early twenties.
Drogba had loads of injuries when he was a young player but was with Le Mans from the age of 19.
First the youth set up and then professional from 21.
Origi played in a very defensive minded Lille side. His last season with them was also pretty much a waste for his development. Was deployed on the wing in several games aswell, fell out with the fans and looked a shadow of the player we first saw.
18 goals in 61 games is decent return for a 21 year old kid. Its also enough to continue working with him and developing his game. He's got loads of stuff he needs to work on but I see no point in selling him this summer.
I highly doubt Klopp will do that regardless.
Fair enough. I wouldn't advocate selling him in the summer also. I was in the let us indulge him boat last spring. Now I am in the not sure bracket.
I wasn't using Drogba as a comparison because of skin color @Rosco, which is why I also used Diego Costa ... Strikers who didn't look like anything special, and only reached their potential later on in their careers.
I think Origi has the tools - he has everything in his locker. He's also played out of position far too much early on his career - namely in Lille and this year too (as I mentioned after Wolves, the Coutinho injury fucked things up because it forced our 3 strikers to each take turns on the wing and fuck up).
Do I think he'll make it? Dunno ... I'm an optimist with many young players, so I'm probably a barometer but he's shown enough when he was playing centrally last year and this year that he can score goals and be an absolute menace.
As for @manwithnoname and your comparison to Studge at his peak - yes, I agree. At his peak, Studge was a far better player (that last barely 18 months unfortunately) ... Can Origi match that? Dunno, that's a pretty fucking high ceiling to reach as Studge was incredible ... but a nice thing to hope for.
I think Origi has the tools - he has everything in his locker. He's also played out of position far too much early on his career - namely in Lille and this year too (as I mentioned after Wolves, the Coutinho injury fucked things up because it forced our 3 strikers to each take turns on the wing and fuck up).
Do I think he'll make it? Dunno ... I'm an optimist with many young players, so I'm probably a barometer but he's shown enough when he was playing centrally last year and this year that he can score goals and be an absolute menace.
As for @manwithnoname and your comparison to Studge at his peak - yes, I agree. At his peak, Studge was a far better player (that last barely 18 months unfortunately) ... Can Origi match that? Dunno, that's a pretty fucking high ceiling to reach as Studge was incredible ... but a nice thing to hope for.
As opposed to your opinion which is based on a double-blind, placebo controlled study of 18,000 strikers dating back to 1706?
I'm not sure Origi will be a success here but that is not to say he won't be a success - and score plenty - somewhere. Strikers like he or Sturridge just don't suit Klopp in Klopp's current morph.
Virtually unplayable?
Are you on drugs?
He shows glimpses of potential but he's never ever looked like he was going to be that good.
There were a couple of games last year where he was fantastic but yeah it's yet to replicate this year. Let's be honest, no striker is going to shine when surrounded by 10 opposition players and were not crossing the ball into the box but just passing it around the outside or failing to try and go through the middle. Other teams tactics, as well as own, have dented his confidence. He needs to get over that shit and realise he's incredibly fortunate to be starting for a club of our size and stature and make the most of every opportunity.
On this matter you are the fuckwit. He was brilliant last season and i know he can get back to that form. Clearly the Evertonian cunt last season taking a chunk out of him has dented his confidence a little this season.
Most of our strikers have been finished by 26 or certainly had their best years previous. Fowler, Owen, Heskey, Torres, etc. It's not a reliable yardstick.
Everyone of those players peaked very early in their career and later struggled with injuries.
Not sure why Heskey is there cause he had one good season in pretty much his entire career goalwise.
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