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Old Firm exit?

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Holle

Chainsmoker
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/c/celtic/8296085.stm

Lawwell upbeat on Old Firm exit

Celtic are envious of the television money on offer in England
Celtic chief executive Peter Lawwell says Scottish football would benefit from increased competition if the Old Firm were to escape to pastures new.

"There are only two teams that can win the league," he told BBC Radio 5 Live.

"If you accept that competition is the lifeblood of sport, the Scottish model is seriously challenged.

"If Celtic and Rangers did play in another environment, I think it would enhance the game because you would have more competition."

At a meeting in November, the English Premier League are to discuss the possibility of a two-tier set-up, which could involve the Glasgow sides.

Bolton chairman Phil Gartside is the driving force behind the idea to include Rangers and Celtic in two divisions of 18 teams.

Lawwell revealed that Celtic would consider joining the English league at the lowest level - if it meant they had a chance of playing in their Premier League one day.

The club would be prepared to enter the English pyramid at the base if it would benefit them in the long-term, he said.

The issue has been raised several times over the years, with many fearing the loss of the Old Firm's financial muscle would be ruinous for the Scottish game.

However, when speculating about a future exit, Lawwell added: "When there is something to play for, the crowds go up.

"And, if we move, there may be some sort of interim solidarity payment to see the clubs through the transition."

Lawwell is convinced change is inevitable and believes Celtic have the potential to be a major European player if the club can escape the constraints of the Scottish Premier League.

"For certain, things won't stay the same," he said. "There are so many dynamics in world football at the moment and the world is getting smaller.

"We have very strong fundamentals. In the last Deloitte's report we were the eighth biggest club in the world for match-day takings.

"If we had the TV rights value that you get in England, then there is no barrier for Celtic.

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"If you look at our story and compare it to Manchester United: the beginnings, the triumphs, the tragedies, the characters, they are almost identical.

"But we play in a country of five million people and Manchester United play in the most successful league in the world.

"We continually look in awe at what's happened in England. The English Premier League is an absolutely fantastic product."

When asked about the possibility of an Atlantic League proposal being revived, Lawwell was less enthusiastic.

"It was looked at in great detail seven or eight years ago but it seemed to be a little bit of a Frankenstein; bits taken from here and there and there were no real national rivalries," he explained.

"There would be an initial media interest but whether that would be sustainable is questionable. And there would need to be some sort of integration with the Champions League.

"From our point of view, we'd be looking at something more natural.

"We have a watching brief at the moment. There are some initiatives going on, I think, in England and there is some discussion in terms of extending the Champions League, which we would be very keen to participate in."

"Celtic and Rangers are massive clubs. Celtic certainly has a global reach. Our frustration is that we play in a very small market and we don't have a regular platform to tell the Celtic story from," he added.

"We're looking for an opportunity to participate in an environment that gives us that global exposure. And hopefully, through time, that will come.

"We need someone to want us. And, if that benefits Celtic and its supporters, then we'd be delighted to take part."


The part with Celtic starting in the lowest division sounds very unlikely to me.
 
Why would they start at the bottom and potentially take 5+ years to get to the prem (if they were to get there) they would lose out on loads of money, no europe, how would they keep players happy while they are playing in Div 2
 
[quote author=Asim link=topic=36335.msg959893#msg959893 date=1255009744]
Why would they start at the bottom and potentially take 5+ years to get to the prem (if they were to get there) they would lose out on loads of money, no europe, how would they keep players happy while they are playing in Div 2
[/quote]

Dunno. That's why I think it's unlikely.
 
It would take both teams 10+ years to reach the Premiership if they started at the very bottom.

A few years ago I could understand, but not support, the argument for including them in the Premiership. But both clubs have deteriorated to such an extent, I don't see them in higher regard than any of the newly promoted clubs.

In short, fuck 'em.
 
[quote author=Asim link=topic=36335.msg959893#msg959893 date=1255009744]
Why would they start at the bottom and potentially take 5+ years to get to the prem (if they were to get there) they would lose out on loads of money, no europe, how would they keep players happy while they are playing in Div 2
[/quote]

Are they talking about Div 2 or the mooted lower tier of a new two-tier PL league ?
 
[quote author=Asim link=topic=36335.msg959893#msg959893 date=1255009744]
Why would they start at the bottom and potentially take 5+ years to get to the prem (if they were to get there) they would lose out on loads of money, no europe, how would they keep players happy while they are playing in Div 2
[/quote]

I don't think they would, but the fact that it's even being discussed underlines what a mess Scottish football is in.

Also, if Celtic and Rangers leave the SPL, what's going to be left for the other clubs? Would they end up wanting to join the English leagues as well?
 
[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=36335.msg959909#msg959909 date=1255010154]
[quote author=Asim link=topic=36335.msg959893#msg959893 date=1255009744]
Why would they start at the bottom and potentially take 5+ years to get to the prem (if they were to get there) they would lose out on loads of money, no europe, how would they keep players happy while they are playing in Div 2
[/quote]

Are they talking about Div 2 or the mooted lower tier of a new two-tier PL league ?
[/quote]

I think of a two-tier PL more like a north/south thing. Or am I mistaken?
 
Seeing as the Scottish FA is so paranoid about being classed as 'British' it refused to co-operate with the British Olympic team even after getting FIFA assurances it wouldn't have been penalised for doing so, letting its two biggest clubs join the English league looks a pretty risky venture. And more generally, a precedent would be set where, for example, Ajax might fancy playing in serie A, Lyon might ask to play in Spain - I mean, you either play in your own country's league, for better or worse, or everyone moves around to wherever they fancy.
 
They did something similar in Germany after the reunification.
Celtic are in a much better financial shape than these Eastern germany clubs at the time though
I think Celtic would need one season in Championship to get the promotion.
They would fight for a top 8 position.
 
[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=36335.msg959909#msg959909 date=1255010154]
[quote author=Asim link=topic=36335.msg959893#msg959893 date=1255009744]
Why would they start at the bottom and potentially take 5+ years to get to the prem (if they were to get there) they would lose out on loads of money, no europe, how would they keep players happy while they are playing in Div 2
[/quote]

Are they talking about Div 2 or the mooted lower tier of a new two-tier PL league ?
[/quote]

Hmmm, maybe not sure either way it's stupid.
So if they moved on and lets say Herts won the league next 5 years running would they have to move across also?
stupid idea really
 
[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=36335.msg959919#msg959919 date=1255010566]
They did something similar in Germany after the reunification.
Celtic are in a much better financial shape than these Eastern germany clubs at the time though
I think Celtic would need one season in Championship to get the promotion.
They would fight for a top 8 position.
[/quote]

Yes, but as the national team was re-unified, and therefore any changes wouldn't have endangered who gets to play in European competitions, it wasn't a problem. The Scottish FA is scared of losing its European places, as well as its international autonomy.
 
[quote author=gkmacca link=topic=36335.msg959918#msg959918 date=1255010482]
Seeing as the Scottish FA is so paranoid about being classed as 'British' it refused to co-operate with the British Olympic team even after getting FIFA assurances it wouldn't have been penalised for doing so, letting its two biggest clubs join the English league looks a pretty risky venture. And more generally, a precedent would be set where, for example, Ajax might fancy playing in serie A, Lyon might ask to play in Spain - I mean, you either play in your own country's league, for better or worse, or everyone moves around to wherever they fancy.
[/quote]

But Lyon is not a part of Italy, whereas Glasgow is a part of the UK. But I do see what you mean. Maybe the Scots should eliminate their parliament in a first step to raise the chances. 😉
 
[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=36335.msg959919#msg959919 date=1255010566]
They did something similar in Germany after the reunification.
Celtic are in a much better financial shape than these Eastern germany clubs at the time though
I think Celtic would need one season in Championship to get the promotion.
They would fight for a top 8 position.
[/quote]

The Swiss did something similar as well if I'm not mistaken. Didn't Vaduz FC from Liechtenstein play in the first division some years ago?
 
[quote author=Doped White Mouse link=topic=36335.msg959926#msg959926 date=1255010874]
[quote author=gkmacca link=topic=36335.msg959918#msg959918 date=1255010482]
Seeing as the Scottish FA is so paranoid about being classed as 'British' it refused to co-operate with the British Olympic team even after getting FIFA assurances it wouldn't have been penalised for doing so, letting its two biggest clubs join the English league looks a pretty risky venture. And more generally, a precedent would be set where, for example, Ajax might fancy playing in serie A, Lyon might ask to play in Spain - I mean, you either play in your own country's league, for better or worse, or everyone moves around to wherever they fancy.
[/quote]

But Lyon is not a part of Italy, whereas Glasgow is a part of the UK. But I do see what you mean. Maybe the Scots should eliminate their parliament in a first step to raise the chances. 😉
[/quote]

Scotlands a separate country as it keeps on telling us and is keen on separating itself from England as much as possible. I believe it receives more in UK government spending that it contributes in tax yet they still find things to complain about. Yet when it suits them to be part of something primarily English they soon change their tune. They can stay in their own crappy league as far as I'm concerned.
 
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=36335.msg959930#msg959930 date=1255011298]
I don't know why it's ok for Welsh clubs to play in England, but not Scottish ones.
[/quote]

It's not. Kick the druids out too. Let Cardiff play the likes of Barry Town and Merthyr Tydfil.
 
[quote author=Doped White Mouse link=topic=36335.msg959926#msg959926 date=1255010874]
[quote author=gkmacca link=topic=36335.msg959918#msg959918 date=1255010482]
Seeing as the Scottish FA is so paranoid about being classed as 'British' it refused to co-operate with the British Olympic team even after getting FIFA assurances it wouldn't have been penalised for doing so, letting its two biggest clubs join the English league looks a pretty risky venture. And more generally, a precedent would be set where, for example, Ajax might fancy playing in serie A, Lyon might ask to play in Spain - I mean, you either play in your own country's league, for better or worse, or everyone moves around to wherever they fancy.
[/quote]

But Lyon is not a part of Italy, whereas Glasgow is a part of the UK. But I do see what you mean. Maybe the Scots should eliminate their parliament in a first step to raise the chances. 😉
[/quote]

The point is FIFA currently don't recognise the UK. FIFA recognises the entirely separate football countries of England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. And there are some in FIFA - Jack Warner among them - who have made it clear they will respond to any blurring of that autonomy by calling for one UK team and one UK FA. And the SFA is chronically worried about that prospect.
 
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=36335.msg959929#msg959929 date=1255011235]
[quote author=Doped White Mouse link=topic=36335.msg959926#msg959926 date=1255010874]
[quote author=gkmacca link=topic=36335.msg959918#msg959918 date=1255010482]
Seeing as the Scottish FA is so paranoid about being classed as 'British' it refused to co-operate with the British Olympic team even after getting FIFA assurances it wouldn't have been penalised for doing so, letting its two biggest clubs join the English league looks a pretty risky venture. And more generally, a precedent would be set where, for example, Ajax might fancy playing in serie A, Lyon might ask to play in Spain - I mean, you either play in your own country's league, for better or worse, or everyone moves around to wherever they fancy.
[/quote]

But Lyon is not a part of Italy, whereas Glasgow is a part of the UK. But I do see what you mean. Maybe the Scots should eliminate their parliament in a first step to raise the chances. 😉
[/quote]

Scotlands a separate country as it keeps on telling us and is keen on separating itself from England as much as possible. I believe it receives more in UK government spending that it contributes in tax yet they still find things to complain about. Yet when it suits them to be part of something primarily English they soon change their tune. They can stay in their own crappy league as far as I'm concerned.
[/quote]

Valid point.
 
[quote author=Doped White Mouse link=topic=36335.msg959927#msg959927 date=1255011025]
[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=36335.msg959919#msg959919 date=1255010566]
They did something similar in Germany after the reunification.
Celtic are in a much better financial shape than these Eastern germany clubs at the time though
I think Celtic would need one season in Championship to get the promotion.
They would fight for a top 8 position.
[/quote]

The Swiss did something similar as well if I'm not mistaken. Didn't Vaduz FC from Liechtenstein play in the first division some years ago?
[/quote]
Well yes they did but its slighly different. Its a bit like your welsh clubs, they still can participate in UEFA competitions.
Celtic and Rangers are big clubs and the scotish league is decent.
I think they have to decide whether they accept to reunify the SPL and EPL and face the fact they wont have scotish clubs in Europe(untill Celtic or Rangers reach it) or remain as it currently is.
 
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=36335.msg959930#msg959930 date=1255011298]
I don't know why it's ok for Welsh clubs to play in England, but not Scottish ones.
[/quote]

I think it's an historical anomaly. They joined the English league before any international body existed, and, when other leagues were formed and new rules established, they were allowed to stay. I haven't looked into the topic for ages, but that's what I recall.
 
[quote author=gkmacca link=topic=36335.msg959940#msg959940 date=1255011846]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=36335.msg959930#msg959930 date=1255011298]
I don't know why it's ok for Welsh clubs to play in England, but not Scottish ones.
[/quote]

I think it's an historical anomaly. They joined the English league before any international body existed, and, when other leagues were formed and new rules established, they were allowed to stay. I haven't looked into the topic for ages, but that's what I recall.
[/quote]

I think that Cardiff and Swansea aren't members of the Welsh FA but of the English FA?
 
[quote author=Doped White Mouse link=topic=36335.msg959942#msg959942 date=1255011986]
[quote author=gkmacca link=topic=36335.msg959940#msg959940 date=1255011846]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=36335.msg959930#msg959930 date=1255011298]
I don't know why it's ok for Welsh clubs to play in England, but not Scottish ones.
[/quote]

I think it's an historical anomaly. They joined the English league before any international body existed, and, when other leagues were formed and new rules established, they were allowed to stay. I haven't looked into the topic for ages, but that's what I recall.
[/quote]

I think that Cardiff and Swansea aren't members of the Welsh FA but of the English FA?
[/quote]

Yes, but that's what I meant - they joined the English FA - or whatever it was called before that - before a proper Welsh FA existed, or at least had separate authority.
 
[quote author=gkmacca link=topic=36335.msg959948#msg959948 date=1255012417]
[quote author=Doped White Mouse link=topic=36335.msg959942#msg959942 date=1255011986]
[quote author=gkmacca link=topic=36335.msg959940#msg959940 date=1255011846]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=36335.msg959930#msg959930 date=1255011298]
I don't know why it's ok for Welsh clubs to play in England, but not Scottish ones.
[/quote]

I think it's an historical anomaly. They joined the English league before any international body existed, and, when other leagues were formed and new rules established, they were allowed to stay. I haven't looked into the topic for ages, but that's what I recall.
[/quote]

I think that Cardiff and Swansea aren't members of the Welsh FA but of the English FA?
[/quote]

Yes, but that's what I meant - they joined the English FA - or whatever it was called before that - before a Welsh FA existed.
[/quote]

So if Celtic and Rangers deserted the Scottish FA would they be allowed to join the English FA?
 
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=36335.msg959931#msg959931 date=1255011346]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=36335.msg959930#msg959930 date=1255011298]
I don't know why it's ok for Welsh clubs to play in England, but not Scottish ones.
[/quote]

It's not. Kick the druids out too. Let Cardiff play the likes of Barry Town and Merthyr Tydfil.
[/quote]

Ha ha, Druids !
 
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=36335.msg959931#msg959931 date=1255011346]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=36335.msg959930#msg959930 date=1255011298]
I don't know why it's ok for Welsh clubs to play in England, but not Scottish ones.
[/quote]

It's not. Kick the druids out too. Let Cardiff play the likes of Barry Town and Merthyr Tydfil.
[/quote]

That won't be easy because they are members of the English FA, innit?
 
[quote author=Doped White Mouse link=topic=36335.msg959952#msg959952 date=1255012545]
[quote author=gkmacca link=topic=36335.msg959948#msg959948 date=1255012417]
[quote author=Doped White Mouse link=topic=36335.msg959942#msg959942 date=1255011986]
[quote author=gkmacca link=topic=36335.msg959940#msg959940 date=1255011846]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=36335.msg959930#msg959930 date=1255011298]
I don't know why it's ok for Welsh clubs to play in England, but not Scottish ones.
[/quote]

I think it's an historical anomaly. They joined the English league before any international body existed, and, when other leagues were formed and new rules established, they were allowed to stay. I haven't looked into the topic for ages, but that's what I recall.
[/quote]

I think that Cardiff and Swansea aren't members of the Welsh FA but of the English FA?
[/quote]

Yes, but that's what I meant - they joined the English FA - or whatever it was called before that - before a Welsh FA existed.
[/quote]

So if Celtic and Rangers deserted the Scottish FA would they be allowed to join the English FA?
[/quote]

That's a very interesting point. I'm not sure there's a clear answer. It would probably be blocked by the EFA and SFA protecting each other, as all the jobs for the boys would vanish if FIFA ever did insist on unification, so each FA needs the other in that sense. But presumably it's technically possible.
 
It's very much a political issue, primarily, I think. Whatever else is argued, the suits at the SFA will be desperate to cling on to their jobs and powers, and some in FIFA will be eager to diminish the British influence internationally. The Olympics debate showed where all of these ideas lead, sooner or later:


Blatter against British 2012 team
Fifa president Sepp Blatter says a Great Britain football team at the 2012 Olympic Games should feature only English players.

The Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish football bodies oppose a GB team in case it affects their Fifa status, while England back the idea.

Blatter now says said the independent status of the four British associations could be harmed by a unified GB team.

"They should enter only a team composed of players from England," said Blatter.

"This will then not provoke a long and endless discussion of the four British associations."


The International Olympic Committee does not recognise separate teams from Britain's home countries.

Olympic qualification has been impossible as it is based on Fifa's under-21 competitions in which the four home nations compete individually.

Blatter was speaking from Gleneagles, Scotland, where the International Football Association annual meeting has been taking place.

The Scottish FA reiterated its opposition to a unified team during a meeting with Blatter on Saturday.

"I said that is the best thing for you to do," said Blatter.

"If you start to put together a combined team for the Olympic Games, the question will automatically come up that there are four different associations so how can they play in one team.

"If this is the case then why the hell do they have four associations and four votes and their own vice-presidency?

"This will put into question all the privileges that the British associations have been given by the Congress in 1946."

Great Britain would have a men's team for the first time since the 1956 Olympics and a women's team for the first time ever.

Story from BBC SPORT:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/sport1/hi/olympics/football/7286011.stm
 
[quote author=gkmacca link=topic=36335.msg959960#msg959960 date=1255012953]
[quote author=Doped White Mouse link=topic=36335.msg959952#msg959952 date=1255012545]
[quote author=gkmacca link=topic=36335.msg959948#msg959948 date=1255012417]
[quote author=Doped White Mouse link=topic=36335.msg959942#msg959942 date=1255011986]
[quote author=gkmacca link=topic=36335.msg959940#msg959940 date=1255011846]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=36335.msg959930#msg959930 date=1255011298]
I don't know why it's ok for Welsh clubs to play in England, but not Scottish ones.
[/quote]

I think it's an historical anomaly. They joined the English league before any international body existed, and, when other leagues were formed and new rules established, they were allowed to stay. I haven't looked into the topic for ages, but that's what I recall.
[/quote]

I think that Cardiff and Swansea aren't members of the Welsh FA but of the English FA?
[/quote]

Yes, but that's what I meant - they joined the English FA - or whatever it was called before that - before a Welsh FA existed.
[/quote]

So if Celtic and Rangers deserted the Scottish FA would they be allowed to join the English FA?
[/quote]

That's a very interesting point. I'm not sure there's a clear answer. It would probably be blocked by the EFA and SFA protecting each other, as all the jobs for the boys would vanish if FIFA ever did insist on unification, so each FA needs the other in that sense. But presumably it's technically possible.
[/quote]

Another question would be if both would be allowed to play in Europe even if they qualify. If I'm not mistaken the English FA refused to nominate Cardiff to play in Europe even if they should qualify.
 
[quote author=Doped White Mouse link=topic=36335.msg959966#msg959966 date=1255013460]
Another question would be if both would be allowed to play in Europe even if they qualify. If I'm not mistaken the English FA refused to nominate Cardiff to play in Europe even if they should qualify.
[/quote]

I think they'd have to treat the teams as completely 'Anglicised' if they took them at all, and let results take their course - otherwise there would be too many questions raised as to what was going on. But as the Blatter quote above makes clear, FIFA is just waiting for a chance to cut the perceived 'British' bias internally, and anything like this would probably be deemed as far too risky. I think the Welsh anomaly has been tolerated because the teams have conveniently been shite for most of the time. If Cardiff, for example, ever got really successful there'd be a problem.
 
[quote author=gkmacca link=topic=36335.msg959968#msg959968 date=1255013885]
[quote author=Doped White Mouse link=topic=36335.msg959966#msg959966 date=1255013460]
Another question would be if both would be allowed to play in Europe even if they qualify. If I'm not mistaken the English FA refused to nominate Cardiff to play in Europe even if they should qualify.
[/quote]

I think they'd have to treat the teams as completely 'Anglicised' if they took them at all, and let results take their course - otherwise there would be too many questions raised as to what was going on. But as the Blatter quote above makes clear, FIFA is just waiting for a chance to cut the perceived 'British' bias internally, and anything like this would probably be deemed as far too risky.
[/quote]

But the EFA stated that they would not nominate Cardiff, even if they had beaten Pompey in the FA Cup Final.
 
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