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Oh captain my captain

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JohnnyRocket

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Assuming we address central midfield in the summer and finally buy a proper defensive midfielder, is Henderson in danger of not really being in the first choice midfield?

A couple of thoughts about him:

He’s obviously in a poor run of form, and has had injury issues. But a midfield of Can and Henderson just doesn’t work. We're crying out for an intelligent, positionally aware ball user to be sitting next to one of them. And to be honest Can is the player with more potential in him, and who could boss a midfield with the right DM next to him.

Klopp looks like he’s going to settle for a 4-2-3-1 system long term. I’ve always been sceptical of Hendo in a 2 man midfield, especially the 4-2-3-1. One of his main assets is his ability to harry opposition defenders, and work tirelessly from one end of the pitch to the other. In a 4-2-3-1 this isn’t really required from your central midfielders. What you need from them is to do their job and control midfield. Henderson is the perfect right sided midfielder in a midfield 3 in a 4-3-3, 4-3-1-2 or 4-3-2-1 but it seems we won’t play that way. Incidentally, his best run of form that won everyone over on him was the run in in 2014, when we were playing a midfield diamond. I can't say that he's ever been good in a 2 man midfield.

Is there a case for moving Henderson into the attacking 3 midfielders? Probably a roaming wide right in the mold of Kuyt. This creates another problem – with Coutinho and Firmino in the 3, Henderson isn’t really the type of player we need on the right. What we would need is a pacy winger, preferably a left footed one who can cut in from the right.

It will be interesting to see what Klopp does, but the way I look at it, he’ll struggle to get into our strongest side next season. Incredibly useful player for the squad though, but would he be okay with that? Controversially, I’ve thought for a while that Henderson’s skill set is better suited to being a full back. But it’s a bit late for that.

Which would beg the question of whether our club captain should be someone who is a rotation player rather than a fixture in the first team.
 
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Can, Milner and Henderson have many similarities and on current form Henderson is the worst of the three. But he's also the one who when on form gets the best neat passes and crosses into the danger area. I think they should rotate them as and when but not have all three together. That's why I don't think he can be captain, at the minute I'd have Allen higher up the playing order.
 
I think one of the biggest problems we've had as a club in that midfield area, is that we don't really have the personnel or skills for us to play with just two CM players.
It's a bit pathetic that almost all of them seem to be best "in a midfield three".

Yeah, like ANYONE wouldn't look better with an extra person in there to do the part of the job that you can't do very well.
 
We were all saying this post-match. Klopp has some big decisions to make at the end of the season and one of them is whether Henderson will be a certain starter in the big games and can therefore be the captain.

It's 100% NO from me, he is not good enough and isn't even a decent captain anyway. There was one moment yesterday when for the umpteenth time he has wasted a carefully constructed, patient move with a terrible pass straight to a Palace player on the edge of their box and they then break right up to our penalty area because we are left exposed. When their attack breaks down, he turns and starts bawling at Origi and Firmino as though it was their fault that he couldn't pass the ball 10 yards.

He seems to think he is now our No 1 playmaker and so he is forever playing Hollywood/Hail Mary balls that just gift the ball to the other team time and time again. Fuck knows what his possession statistics are nowadays because he rarely makes a successful forward ball - 94th minute yesterday may have been the first.

And he has also stopped making tackles, it's almost like he is aware of the injury so backs off. How he missed the tackle yesterday and then got himself booked taking out Flanagan is a mystery, he was a huge favourite to get there first but somehow didn't make it.

The injury could be the excuse Klopp will need to bring in a new captain who is nailed on to start every game - I have to admit that there's no-one in the current line-up who fits the bill, maybe Emre Can.
 
I think all this talk is premature, just as it was to award captaincy to hendorson in the first place.

Id wait for someone to properly displace him from the starting eleven and thin think about who can be captain....until then he can have it.
 
I note that some of the clamour from certain quarters about Sakho becoming Captain has died down.

Sakho! Amazing, really.
 
Interesting nomination. Rodgers was said to have bought him from Southampton to be a leader in defence and, though that obv.went up the Swanee at the time, he's looking a fair bit more like that kind of player now. Not yet clear whether he'll be a regular in the future though.
 
It's very worrying they almost nobody is guaranteed a starting place in the squad. Not even the captain.

None of them can put three decent matches together, with the possible exception of Clyne. Must be infuriating for Klopp
 
Interesting nomination. Rodgers was said to have bought him from Southampton to be a leader in defence and, though that obv.went up the Swanee at the time, he's looking a fair bit more like that kind of player now. Not yet clear whether he'll be a regular in the future though.
He's got the right temperament, and he's likely to be an automatic starter in future. My 2 cents worth 🙂
 
He's got the right temperament, and he's likely to be an automatic starter in future. My 2 cents worth 🙂

We will have to see next season because Matip will probably be one certain starter at centreback which leaves Lovren to assert himself ahead of Sakho, Gomez or possibly another new signing.
 
IMO two of Skrtel, Sakho, Lovren will be sold in the summer. Matip, Gomez, Lucas and one Skrtel/Sakho/Lovren will probably be our central defenders next season.

Lucas is our best captain but he is injured to often. Would not surprise me if Can will be our captain next season.
 
said from the beginning that this would end up being a huge problem. he's destined to get a massive kick in the teeth when it's eventually handed to someone else. he'll probably get moody about it i reckon.
 
IMO two of Skrtel, Sakho, Lovren will be sold in the summer. Matip, Gomez, Lucas and one Skrtel/Sakho/Lovren will probably be our central defenders next season.

Lucas is our best captain but he is injured to often. Would not surprise me if Can will be our captain next season.

Leaving aside any debate about Lucas' quality or lack of it, he's not a guaranteed starter even now and definitely won't be next season.

Can may well be skipper one day but I'd be very surprised indeed if it's next season
 
Do we need a captain? What do they do besides organization the Xmas party?

Maybe we have a season with just alternates until a real permanent captain emerges or is purchased.

I have been a big Hendo fan for a long time now but I didn't like the decision at the time and I don't like it now. I'm worried about the consequence of taking it away but he isn't a certain starter on current form at least.
 
Leaving aside any debate about Lucas' quality or lack of it, he's not a guaranteed starter even now and definitely won't be next season.

Can may well be skipper one day but I'd be very surprised indeed if it's next season

Should absolutely not be Can next season. Would be the same mistake made as when we named Henderson. Too much too soon.
 
Henderson can stay captain, and whilst not being an automatic starter, he can play the majority of matches, bit like Firmino ATM. The injury this season was a massive set back for Henderson, but when he gets back to form, hes our best all round midfielder and the most consistent passer of the ball in the squad. That doesnt change the fact we still badly need to sign an imposing midfielder this summer whos better than our current lot, but that wont be in place of Henderson.
 
The very reasons cited for Henderson not being captain material is the very same sort of performance we've seen from Can these two seasons (hot and cold) and Lovren (very very cold then getting warmer). It's like the recent love-in with Toure after 2 solid games, ignoring that he's been hot and cold as well both seasons.

And Lucas as captain when he's been obviously not Rodgers' and Klopp's first choice CM if they had a choice. But he's going to be a regular CB for us next season and should captain us too. (yeah, I know, those arguments are from the cult leader).

And as Brendan pointed out - Sakho was advocated as captain at one point (not in this thread, mind) but that's quietened down because he's in a shit run of form.

I think Clyne should be our next captain because he's not run into a bad patch of form yet. He should be ready to be replaced by December next season though by Grujic.
 
[QUOTE="hamstrung_pigeon, post: 1411919, member:]Total fucking sense [/QUOTE]

All of that and a bag of crisps.
 
It's 100% NO from me, he is not good enough and isn't even a decent captain anyway. There was one moment yesterday when for the umpteenth time he has wasted a carefully constructed, patient move with a terrible pass straight to a Palace player on the edge of their box and they then break right up to our penalty area because we are left exposed. When their attack breaks down, he turns and starts bawling at Origi and Firmino as though it was their fault that he couldn't pass the ball 10 yards.
Yeah I saw that and it pissed me off too. Stupid poor pass and he blames his team mates (I wasn't sure who he was bawling at). I'm sure his injuries have affected him, I don't think he will overcome them, and I doubt whether he'll ever be the player he could have been. When we buy Kante + 1 in the Summer then his best position will be on the bench at best.
 
Yeah I saw that and it pissed me off too. Stupid poor pass and he blames his team mates (I wasn't sure who he was bawling at). I'm sure his injuries have affected him, I don't think he will overcome them, and I doubt whether he'll ever be the player he could have been. When we buy Kante + 1 in the Summer then his best position will be on the bench at best.

The player he could have been? Eh?

He's as good as he ever could be, or promised to be
 
Good thread JohnnyRocket - I think this debate is overlooked (probably rightly) because centre mid is not seen as an immediate issue in the same way GK, CB, LB, DM or #9....but it is something were going to have to solve sooner or later.

My issue with Henderson (and I was a strong proponent of the signing....just not the price!) is that his role has morphed in his time with us.... and I'm not sold on his ability in that new role, or his leadership credentials!

He was signed as an energetic midfielder, who could get box to box, and would influence play through his dynamism. However, we've subsequently been sold this line that hes the heir apparent to Gerrard, not just by being given the armband, but also through his upgraded style play (which it was proposed he has now been given the space to "grow into" with SG moving on).... however the simple truth is that by all available comparators and benchmarks, hes a completely inferior player. That's not his fault, Stevie was a once in a generation talent, but I would expect Henderson to keep doing what he does well, rather than attempting to transform into some sort of game changer with a huge range of passing. I see very little evidence that he can grow into that role and maintain it longer term at the required level.

He's an international footballer with some key areas of strength, so he can obviously play - his passing isn't bad, and just occasionally can be very good. But we'd be taking a huge punt if we cast him in a role to dictate play through game awareness, tempo and creative ability. Also, his dead ball play isn't good enough, and he carries very little (if any) goal threat. So lets work on the basis that hes different to, rather than a replacement for, Gerrard, and that the more creative sparks are going to come from further up the pitch. But that being the case we are already shuffling the deck with our midfield personnel options, and the onus has to be put on others to cover these gaps - and then you have to ask yourself are Hendersons strong points good enough to warrant a place in the team long term, given his flaws in both defence and attack?

Its very likely we'll be looking for a defensive midfielder in the summer; in addition, although Can sometimes looks about as mobile as Tom Huddlestone, I think everyone sees creative talent there that deserves to be nurtured (and that poses more threat offensively than Hendos game). Milner has been used in a wider role through necessity this season, but you'd also expect him to be pushing to play centrally next; and whilst most of the criticism above could be levelled at him too, he is more experienced, and more disciplined so represents at the very least, significant competition for a place in the starting XI.

Given all that (and the looming possibility of even more competition being added through offseason signings) you have to accept that Hendersons spot is under threat. Add to that situation small injury niggles, and this longer term heel issue, and Hendo needs to be getting back to what hes good at (AND really growing into and 'owning' the Captaincy space) pretty darn sharpish, whilst the opportunity is still available.
 
The player he could have been? Eh?

He's as good as he ever could be, or promised to be
He was making very good progress after intially stalling after his move from Sunderland, who's to say he wouldn't have shown much more improvement, especially considering he's still quite young, under Klopp ? I think the injuries have put paid ot that.
 
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