Now what? (Saints post-match)

[Best Believe It]

I think, more than most teams, the lack of time and opportunity for training is having a serious effect. Pep Ljinder's mantra for the past two years has been, 'We beat the opposition during the week in training'. Well, players are hardly training at present, they're mainly resting and recovering. As a consequence, there are 'off by heart' routines on show but no sharpness, no power and no tweaks for different teams. It's a team on autopilot.

There are also some alarming drops in individual form. Trent, especially, is in shockingly bad form. Whatever is up with him, it has to be sorted out before he gets anywhere near the first team again. He needs that kind of shock to the system.

Also, the front three have never seemed so incoherent. They don't seem to talk to each other, shout at each other, work with each other. Salah is in a world of his own. Mane is gripped by some personal sense of injustice. And Bobby is flitting in and out of sorts from one minute to the next. They really need to be made to feel like a trio again.

And the squad as a whole has probably just hit a wall. They've played at such intensity for two long years, this was always going to be a danger. I was saying it last summer whilst most in here were shouting me down and insisting all would be well. The strain of fighting so hard is immense, and we needed a proper break and reinforcements. Well, we didn't get the former and we didn't get much of the latter. No team was more likely to be jaded. And we're jaded. Klopp included.

And we're genuinely weakened by injuries. You can't ignore that. It's been brutal.

So what can we do? Buy at least two more of the players we should have bought in the summer, if FSG see sense. Write off the FA Cup, in spite of the new wave of bad publicity we'll get, so that we can rest for a few days. And have a seriously intense session of team bonding again, where some home truths are told.

Then we have to fight on.

Spot on. I know Klopp has made comments in the past about signing players not necessarily being the answer but if we're not getting enough time to coach, signing players is the only way to freshen things up. Plus the centre back situation is getting ridiculous. Fabinho has done well there, and I don't think anyone of Williams, Phillips or Henderson has been bad, but none are good enough currently and, with the case of Fab and Hendo, too important a part of the midfield.

 

[Markeh]

I don't want to be jinxy and directly say what I'm thinking but we're relying too heavily on Fabinho right now

 

[Halmeister]

I said a month or so ago that top 4 is what we will end up battling for. Definitely the case now

 

[bluebell]

Hendo and Fabs at CB, fuck me! Fabs is a DM, and Hendo is a CM. How much have we missed fabs breaking up play in front of our back 4. We forget how good he his at picking a pass. The board needs to get the cheque book out and the very least get loan players in. Isco is probably available on loan. Not the most critical position but a creative spark is needed there.

 

[ibromurph]

It's frustrating because I / we have been warning against this for ages now. You can't keep going with the same group of players running themselves into the ground.

Jota was a step in the right direction but not enough (and now we don't even have him).

You can only escape underinvestment for so long.

We have one the best first teams' in the world if not the best.

But the supporting case around it is not good enough.

Williams, Phillips, Origi, Ox, Adrian, Keita, Minamino, Tsimikas all aren't doing enough to be in this squad.

 

[Brizzle]

If we continue like this we are wasting the opportunity we have with this group of players. The front three are comfy - there is no punishment for shite performance, either during a game or threats for the next one.

The last time they played well - when we dropped Mo for Palace. Mane & Bobby played blinders, Taki was good and then Mo came on with a point to prove. We need to do this more even with Jota out. They are constantly taking one touch too many, making one more pass than required and the runs around the box are too predictable for the opposition.

Yesterday also reminded me of Moyes' United - there was a game where they were shown to have made a record amount of crosses, I bet we werent far off that. Endless crosses that were overhit/underhit/nowhere near finding anyone in space.

What a shit show. We need to turn this around ASAP as everyone else is having blips, and hopefully will continue to do so.

 

[rurikbird]

Yesterday also reminded me of Moyes' United - there was a game where they were shown to have made a record amount of crosses, I bet we werent far off that. Endless crosses that were overhit/underhit/nowhere near finding anyone in space.

You’re exactly right:

 

[HC]

Its crazy.

You just sit deep, Gini isn't a willing runner in this team for whatever reason, Thiago was on the fucking halfway line or the deepest of the three and Hendo ordinarily seems to be willing to make overlapping runs out wide but we have zero being offered in the box, nobody to pick up the loose ball or there for a layoff. Bobby is great in the air, any AM snooping around the edge of the penalty area could have half a dozen freebies a season.

Probably makes more sense to play some sort of 442 variant against teams that sit back and flood the midfield, in each of the past 3 matches the midfield has been nullified for large parts of the match, they're outnumbered and easily pressed into passing the ball sideways or backwards, Get Hendo back into midfield in a 4, stick Thiago 20 yards further forwards and all of a sudden we can control the middle of the park and have some sort of meaningful presence up the pitch. Having 4 in the midfield would also mean we aren't reliant upon the opposition fluffing chances or fabinho or whoever clutching cheeks in a 1v1.

It genuinely feels like Klopp is tactically getting found out this season. don't play football against us, just leave a man up top - Utd could have an absolute field day against this side.

 

[gkmacca]

You’re exactly right:

It's akin to Snow White ordering a record number of high kitchen stools from IKEA for the seven dwarves. The crossing is fine when we're in control and the opposition is being pulled around, but when we're chasing the game and the opposition's big CBs stay put, the crosses are usually wasted balls. We've got to play quick passes to feet. Time and again last night, and in previous games, we seemed unable to go beyond Robbo's keeper-friendly height crosses and Salah's hubristic obsession with trying to wriggle through three or four players in the box. It's madness.

 

[rurikbird]

If we continue like this we are wasting the opportunity we have with this group of players. The front three are comfy - there is no punishment for shite performance, either during a game or threats for the next one.

The last time they played well - when we dropped Mo for Palace. Mane & Bobby played blinders, Taki was good and then Mo came on with a point to prove. We need to do this more even with Jota out. They are constantly taking one touch too many, making one more pass than required and the runs around the box are too predictable for the opposition.

That’s a good point as well - Minamino started and scored against Palace; his presence gave fresh impetus to Firmino by allowed him to play more like a proper striker. I don’t really believe in “never change a winning team” principle, but at least Minamino could have started in one of the 3 games that followed, while giving one of the main front 3 a bit of rest. Now they all played 3 full games in a short period of time, look mentally jaded and have only 1 goal in 3 games to show for all their efforts.

 

[refugee]

In the end it didn't work, but credit to him for making the correct substitutions to bring in Shaqiri for Ox and to sub off the horribly out-of-form TAA.

I think you are giving him too much credit here. Ox is just back from injury and was likely going to come off early regardless. Trent was abysmal and should have been off much earlier. His highlight of the match was misjudging the flight of the ball completely in the opposition half, and Henderson screaming at him "TRENT, FUCK ME"

 

[carlv]

I am getting fed up with Salah.

He can't seem to control the ball which means we constantly concede possession in the opposing half. If he does control it it under hits the pass back to TAA and then does his silly little jump in the air. Compared to the other 2 he also seems lazy at coming back.

He also never seems to take anyone on he always cuts inside and is immediately outnumbered and the attack ends.

 

[rurikbird]

It's akin to Snow White ordering a record number of high kitchen stools from IKEA for the seven dwarves. The crossing is fine when we're in control and the opposition is being pulled around, but when we're chasing the game and the opposition's big CBs stay put, the crosses are usually wasted balls. We've got to play quick passes to feet. Time and again last night, and in previous games, we seemed unable to go beyond Robbo's keeper-friendly height crosses and Salah's hubristic obsession with trying to wriggle through three or four players in the box. It's madness.

And Mane turning and running directly at Walker-Peters and the covering Armstrong every single time, never even thinking to lay the ball off or find a teammate. I think the only surprising and mentally sharp play last night was Firmino’s spin and turn on the left, which deserved a better pass in the end.

 

[gkmacca]

Yes. I know Mane was quite busy compared to the others, but it was a very aimless sort of busyness. It was as if he'd settled on one kind of move and was just going to keep doing it until it worked. As you say, at least Bobby tried the odd different thing.

The great use of crossing for us is the early cross on the break, when Salah or Mane is racing to get ahead of a defender. That's pretty much our trademark attacking cross. When however the penalty area is already stuffed full of players, and the action is pretty static, as it was against West Brom, to some extent Newcastle and deffo last night in the second half, I'd love to know what Trent, especially, thought he was trying to achieve by just looping in crosses close to Forster. I mean, it's a rare moment when our forwards outjump 6ft4 CBs and get there before the keeper. But every time Trent seemed surprised the cross hadn't worked. Bizarre.

 

[RedStar]

Yes. I know Mane was quite busy compared to the others, but it was a very aimless sort of busyness. It was as if he'd settled on one kind of move and was just going to keep doing it until it worked. As you say, at least Bobby tried the odd different thing.

The great use of crossing for us is the early cross on the break, when Salah or Mane is racing to get ahead of a defender. That's pretty much our trademark attacking cross. When however the penalty area is already stuffed full of players, and the action is pretty static, as it was against West Brom, to some extent Newcastle and deffo last night in the second half, I'd love to know what Trent, especially, thought he was trying to achieve by just looping in crosses close to Forster. I mean, it's a rare moment when our forwards outjump 6ft4 CBs and get there before the keeper. But every time Trent seemed surprised the cross hadn't worked. Bizarre.

Thats fair but looking at it another way, what were the options for him and Robbo? The centre was congested, the front 3 were unable to play their way through and nobody from midfield was stepping up to offer any sort of attacking outlet. They could have just kept recycling the ball to Thiago or Gini but that didnt really get us anywhere either.

Trent is playing without any confidence at the moment but we didnt exactly give them alot of options to hit, everybody just kept funneling the ball out to the two fullbacks and asking them for a laser guided missile. 'go on there lad, pick out 5'8 Mo Salah in that phone box full of defenders'

 

[gkmacca]

Thats fair but looking at it another way, what were the options for him and Robbo? The centre was congested, the front 3 were unable to play their way through and nobody from midfield was stepping up to offer any sort of attacking outlet. They could have just kept recycling the ball to Thiago or Gini but that didnt really get us anywhere either.

Well, if it doesn't work, don't keep doing it. That's the first point.

Then: try something else. Pass the ball inside and run down to the line. Cut inside and have a shot yourself. Or just go for City-style patient possession. Surely the key lesson is: don't give the ball away cheaply.

If you keep seeing their keeper grab the ball with ease when you cross it in - stop doing it! If you keep seeing the defenders already seem to know what you're going to do and where you're going to do it - react with some invention!

Learn lessons. That's what isn't happening.

Oh, yes, and if you send attacking subs on - make sure they attack. Why the heck was Shaq often on the edge of our own penalty area? What was the point of that??

 

[LeTallecWiz]

Chelsea supporting mate, "I don't get how you guys didn't get at least one penalty yesterday"

When opposition fans start questioning this shit.

 

[tombrown]

I'm not downplaying how depressing it as at the moment, but, as someone pointed out last night, we have been spoilt for the last 2-3 seasons with near flawless football (or when not flawless it didn't matter so much - like towards the end of last season).

That is not normal, all teams tend to have periods of utter shiteness in a season - as I recall it, in the 80s our Octobers were always crap, and scum had similar periods during their domination. There is no team in the league at the moment who has not gone through or will not go through periods of poor form this season.

The frustration is that, if we had approached the levels we have had for the last 2 seasons, we would already have the league wrapped up by now ... we may even be calling it a "dead rubber" 😵

What has actually happened is that we have reverted from superhuman to some level of normality, and we are still top of the league today; even if (when) Utd & City win their games in hand we are well placed, and as our form, inevitably, returns will be in a race for the title.

At the end of the season, when we win it by 1 point in the last game of the season, we will look back at our Christmas poo-fest with humour

 

[gkmacca]

Chelsea supporting mate, "I don't get how you guys didn't get at least one penalty yesterday"

When opposition fans start questioning this shit.

Again, it comes down to consistency or lack of it. We've had innocuous challenges analysed for minutes on end, over and over and over again. And yet worse challenges last night were either ignored or 'cleared' in a matter of seconds. If they don't want the use of VAR to seem selective and partial, then don't pick and choose the games when you're going to use it obsessively or hardy at all.

 

[tombrown]

Again, it comes down to consistency or lack of it. We've had innocuous challenges analysed for minutes on end, over and over and over again. And yet worse challenges last night were either ignored or 'cleared' in a matter of seconds. If they don't want the use of VAR to seem selective and partial, then don't pick and choose the games when you're going to use it obsessively or hardy at all.

I think its down to the amount of criticism of VAR 6 weeks or so ago about the analysis of innocuous challenges that has led to a modified approach, and the commentators have been recruited to back it up. In another match over the weekend there was a clear handball (under new rules) by a defender and yet, with little or minimal VAR review no penalty was awarded; the commentator then said "right decision as it wasn't intentional" .. which flies in the face of the modified rule, regardless of whether or not you agreed with it.

Maybe we should have been careful about what we wished for/complained about.

 

[My_Blood_Bleeds_Red]

The slump in form began when Salah had a moan.

Is something’s up in the dressing room ? A tiny rift perhaps ?

 

[moron]

The slump in form began when Salah had a moan.

Is something’s up in the dressing room ? A tiny rift perhaps ?

I actually think between Salah, and Mane - they can upset the harmony of the team:

• Mane Reaction to Coming off - not the first time.
• Salah interview and his over the top selfishness at times, he is obsessed with personal stats - some will say its a good thing for a striker.

What is more upsetting is that we did so well against Crystal Palace - it was supposed to be the game where we sent out a message to the rest of the cunts saying how fucking tough we are, and then fat Sam and his bus came along to cause a massive accident and all that interview stuff from Salah. Anyway who gives a shit - just take screenshot of the league table right now, and keep it as a good memory of what could have been. We are not winning shit this year without defenders.

 

[tombrown]

Putting it down to Salah or Mane is pure hogwash

The reality is that we played Crystal Palace the day before I went to collect my lad from college, really looking forward to showing off my new dodgy box and rediscovering the joy of watching matches with him again.

The good news is he is going back this weekend.

 

[rurikbird]

Putting it down to Salah or Mane is pure hogwash

The reality is that we played Crystal Palace the day before I went to collect my lad from college, really looking forward to showing off my new dodgy box and rediscovering the joy of watching matches with him again.

The good news is he is going back this weekend.

We found the culprit!

 

[Frogfish]

Thats fair but looking at it another way, what were the options for him and Robbo? The centre was congested, the front 3 were unable to play their way through and nobody from midfield was stepping up to offer any sort of attacking outlet. They could have just kept recycling the ball to Thiago or Gini but that didnt really get us anywhere either.

Trent is playing without any confidence at the moment but we didnt exactly give them alot of options to hit, everybody just kept funneling the ball out to the two fullbacks and asking them for a laser guided missile. 'go on there lad, pick out 5'8 Mo Salah in that phone box full of defenders'

Get to the byline, Mane does it sometimes, Robbo on a rare occasion but Trent seems to have totally forgotten where it is. Instead it was overhit cross or pass it to Salah who then had half a dozen on top of him within a second. That would have also meant we had more in the box waiting for a cut-back or tap in cross. City used to be so good at that ... we have the players but they rarely seem to try it.

 

[King Binny]

[article]Barnes told BonusCodeBets that Liverpool do need better “quality” in defence, but Barnes suggested that they can still win the league:

“Long-term, Liverpool need better quality in defensive areas. They also need Jordan Henderson playing in midfield.

“Liverpool need a stop-gap defender – they’re probably not going to get the best centre-back in the world in January as that is not always the best time to buy and the best players are in the Champions League for their clubs.

“Liverpool need a centre-back, but they won’t get one for £60m who is going to come and play alongside Van Dijk when he’s fit.

“It is clear they need numbers in defensive positions because influential midfield players, Henderson and Fabinho, are playing in defence.

“You would much rather have them in midfield. Getting a centre back will allow them to go back to their proper positions and that has more to do with why they lost against Southampton.

“Liverpool play best with Henderson, Wijnaldum, Thiago and Fabinho available in midfield with the front three.

“Liverpool’s most important positions are the midfield three, as they allow the front three to do what they do best.

“The centre-back issue is hurting the midfield by taking away players to play in a defensive role. Liverpool are not used to the current midfield playing every week. So the front three players are not as fluid as they normally are when they haven’t got the regulars playing behind them.

“A centre-back will strengthen Liverpool and give them more of an opportunity to win the league. But I don’t think it is the deciding factor.

“Players coming back into the team that allows Henderson and Fabinho to play in the midfield will be used. So they can still win the title without signing another centre-back, they still can. It will strengthen the cause.”[/article]

 

[Alan Hardaker]

What would've been a surprise is if we had continued winning, putting daylight between us and the pack. It was starting to go before the Villa thrashing. This poor run was inevitable. The injuries have played a major part in it. Take out the backbone, take out Jota who was bought to compete and in the process allow the usual suspects to get a rest, add in Matip,Thiago and a few more and it's a minor miracle that we are top of the pile.

What we need to do is avoid the blame game, stick together.Maybe rest Mo and Sadio for the cup, and a few others. Refocus and regroup for the United game. we haven't become a bad team over the last week or two, it's just been a combination of stuff. United will be a genuine game.They will come out and we can win it as long as the mentality is right. Rest...then batter them.

 

[RedStar]

Id rest more than just Mo and Sadio for the cup. Robertson, Fabinho, Trent, Henderson, Wjinaldum and Firmino should all sit it out. We saw the stupidity of the 'make a game of it' approach in Middtyland, lets not compound the error.