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Messi

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Ryan

Ryan

The Prophet
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If he wins this World Cup for Argentina, is he the greatest footballer of all time?
 
localny said:
Why do you think he is better than Diego, pele, cryuff, Suarez n best?
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It's too difficult a choice for me, but the long-standing argument against Messi has always been that he needed to do it at a World Cup in order to be classified alongside or above those you mentioned. Just wondered if he did do it this year with Argentina where that would place him in the list of all-time greats...
 
True enough, he's excelled on every other stage. I thought he had peaked, but he's really showing up. The only thing for me is his consistency has evaporated in the past 12 months but that could also be due to injuries, and the off the field stuff. I don't think pele, or Diego really excelled at club level like he has. For them it was internationals.

Which really shows how times have changed as club football, read CL football is now the top level. International football not as much, every fourth summer excepted,
 
localny said:
I don't think pele, or Diego really excelled at club level like he has. For them it was internationals.
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According to Wiki, Pele scored 616 goals in 638 club games (all competitions) for Santos, picking up tons of titles in 18 seasons with the club. This included a stretch of 5 straight league titles ('61 to '65) and also a stretch of 9 league titles in 12 seasons in another league competition.

But that's what the club did. What did he do? Well, when he was between 17 to 25 years old, he scored more goals than league games he appeared in every season. And it wasn't just by a few more goals. At times, it was a lot more, like 47 goals in 26 games, 45 in 32, 58 in 38, or 49 in 30. That is a fascinating record. Messi did that for 2 seasons straight (2011/12 and 2012/2013) - Pele did it for 9! From 26 to 29, Pele's production and appearances got choppy, but he still averaged almost a goal a game.

So Messi might've had a better league career than Maradona, but I doubt you can say the same when his record is pitched against Pele's... yet.
 
Thanks mate, that's great. But isn't Messi playing at a higher level in la Liga and the CL? Are stats comparable, when one league is better and more difficult?
 
localny said:
Thanks mate, that's great. But isn't Messi playing at a higher level in la Liga and the CL? Are stats comparable, when one league is better and more difficult?
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But who is to say that the Brazilian leagues were poorer back then? Brazilian football was at its peak at that time, and I'm not sure the exodus of South Americans to Europe was already in vogue yet in that period - I might be wrong as it was a little before my time, but I don't think it was. Guys like Rivelino, Dida, Garrincha, etc. were all still playing in South America.

I think it's just hard and probably unfair to point to a league and say that's easier than the other, when they cross eras. I think we'll just have to take things as they are, otherwise it won't be long before someone brings out stuff like the lighter balls, pitch conditions, physicality of players, etc. and I think that's just an argument going nowhere in any sport.
 
It's hard to define players across generations, because I never really got to see Pele play. But I'll tell you this much - Messi is a player that comes around once during several generations and he's playing in ours.
C. Ronaldo is close - if Messi didn't exist, he would be up there too. However - the fact that Messi is pulling an under-performing Argentina through this WC single-handedly says everything about him. He's the best I've ever seen.
 
He's also a shoe-in for the golden boot.
(Yes I know it's not spelled "shoe" but that's the pun, you cunts.)
 
Yes.

Pele's goalscoring ratio was quite similar to Messi's but he did it at Santos in the Brazilian league in an era when defending definitely isn't as well drilled as it is today.

I'd put Maradona closer to Messi, because he was exceptional in Italy where defending is an art form in a time when the Italian league was ace.
 
Until Messi has done a funky warm up routine to some cheesy Euro pop, he will never eclipse Maradonna.

I hope he wins the World Cup as otherwise there will always be that Maradonna shadow hanging over him and it would tarnish his career. He deserves to be recognised in the same light.

For me, I still think Maradonna was the best. The fact he was that good in an era when defenders would hack you to bits, no sport science, and he did it single-handedly at club and international level, give him the edge. But that's probably just romanticism.

Messi's scoring record is incredible and he's a privilege to watch.
 
He is the best player ever.

I had a long winded chat about this the other night. The football Pele e Maradona played could not be further to that which Messi plays in, the advances in athletics and technical ability undoubtedly to me means that football is stronger now than ever and subsequently Messi is at the apex of that all time footballing pyramid.

In the same vein the 2014 all stars would annihilate the equivalent team to any Pre 2000 team of the decade
 
That's not a basis for meaningful comparison though. Whoever you consider the greatest of all (my nomination would be George Best), you have to judge it as if they were all playing and training at the same time. Otherwise you're just not comparing like with like.
 
I never saw Pele at his best; Messi is the best I've seen, marginally ahead of Maradona.
 
He'll deserve to be considered. I reckon Argentina have likely had the two best players ever in Maradona and Messi.
 
I don't reckon winning/not winning the WC has anything to do with this particular judgment. It's too dependent on other factors to be relevant.
 
I think a player that propelled a pretty ordinary national team in Argentina and an underachieving Italian football club like Napoli to honours marks out Maradona as special. He is the most talented and effective 'one man team' I've seen to date.
 
Like the best XI, the best footballer of all time is a myth. You can't fairly compare footballers of different eras, and I'm not convinced you can even fairly compare players of different positions.

He probably is the best player of his generation in that position though
 
I think Maradona is definitely better than Messi, regardless of what Messi achieves.

Pele is the difficult one because it's harder to find much good footage of him.
 
He had serious trouble dribbling his way past the Swiss players today, it brought back memories of Arbeloa. At one point he ran down the wing with one player ahead of him, and two closing in from the sides. He soon lost possession and it wasn't a surprise because you knew it was a dead end for him.

At that point the first thing I'm thinking is Diego Maradona and George Best would have humiliated all three defenders before looking up to find a fourth player to rape. Messi isn't in that league which is why despite his ridiculous goalscoring record you can't really say he's the best player ever.
 
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