Mentality

[peekay]

This is not a reaction to today's loss. This is a feeling I have been having for a long time and I decided to post after viewing a similar post on another forum.

I think for a lot of our players - playing for LFC implies they have done it in life. If they win a trophy great, but playing for LFC is enough. Most of them are nice guys and I like them all. I think this prevents them from giving the extra 10% on a consistent basis.

Kuyt, Babel, Yossi, Lucas, Riera are all decent players. They have shown some wonderful skill or showed that they are good players at times and I think they have all been reasonable value for money. However, I dont see the overwhelming desire to succeed, not to accept mediocrity, that the scums display - year in year out.

Ferguson is wonderful in installing that winning mentality. Thats why they bust that extra gut, go a little bit more, come from behind consistently. Doesnt matter if their midfield consists of Alan Smith and an aging Scholes - they still manage to come second.

 

[Skullflower]

very much agree. i think we have a massive psychological problem at this club. i think mourinho would change it.

 

[keniget]

Of course it's not a reaction to todays loss. I think this debate has been going on for years now and you're absolutely correct.

It's perhaps one of the reasons that I actually do enjoy watching Rooney play for England (and link up with Gerrard) these days - his desire to win is infectious. It's something that goes beyond simply working hard and you can see it in every game he plays.

We have a few players like that with Masher and Reina being two of the best examples I can think of, however the club is simply littered with too many individuals that don't possess the same mental qualities. It's damaging.

 

[Tal]

[quote author=keniget link=topic=39438.msg1074463#msg1074463 date=1269193705]
Of course it's not a reaction to todays loss. I think this debate has been going on for years now and you're absolutely correct.

It's perhaps one of the reasons that I actually do enjoy watching Rooney play for England (and link up with Gerrard) these days - his desire to win is infectious. It's something that goes beyond simply working hard and you can see it in every game he plays.

We have a few players like that with Masher and Reina being two of the best examples I can think of, however the club is simply littered with too many individuals that don't possess the same mental qualities. It's damaging.
[/quote]

Nonsense. Rafa only buys players with the right mentality. Think again. 😉

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Skullflower link=topic=39438.msg1074412#msg1074412 date=1269189754]
very much agree. i think we have a massive psychological problem at this club. i think mourinho would change it.
[/quote]

the psychological problem at the club is apathy. no fear of losing your place v no hope of becoming a regular. prime example, lucas was going through the motions, aqua puts in a storming peformance, the second lucas returns to the side he attempts to go on a mazey run. coincedence?

babel in good form, kuyt in poor form, who started the game today?
I've said it before there is a lack of competitions for places, at places like manu you slumped you get dropped.

 

[themn]

[quote author=keniget link=topic=39438.msg1074463#msg1074463 date=1269193705]
Of course it's not a reaction to todays loss. I think this debate has been going on for years now and you're absolutely correct.

It's perhaps one of the reasons that I actually do enjoy watching Rooney play for England (and link up with Gerrard) these days - his desire to win is infectious. It's something that goes beyond simply working hard and you can see it in every game he plays.

We have a few players like that with Masher and Reina being two of the best examples I can think of, however the club is simply littered with too many individuals that don't possess the same mental qualities. It's damaging.
[/quote]

It's funny you say this, Ken.

Where the fuck is Stevie's "mentality" these days ?

His body language the other day, playing for England is all "come on lads, we can do it" even when subbed.

The look on his face as he was sat on the subs bench on against Lille on Thursday night (a game we were comfortably controlling) was sarcastic contempt.

I LOVE STEVEN GERRARD ETC... but, he's got to pull his head out of his arse for his club.

 

[peekay]

[quote author=themn link=topic=39438.msg1074475#msg1074475 date=1269194464]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=39438.msg1074463#msg1074463 date=1269193705]
Of course it's not a reaction to todays loss. I think this debate has been going on for years now and you're absolutely correct.

It's perhaps one of the reasons that I actually do enjoy watching Rooney play for England (and link up with Gerrard) these days - his desire to win is infectious. It's something that goes beyond simply working hard and you can see it in every game he plays.

We have a few players like that with Masher and Reina being two of the best examples I can think of, however the club is simply littered with too many individuals that don't possess the same mental qualities. It's damaging.
[/quote]

It's funny you say this, Ken.

Where the fuck is Stevie's "mentality" these days ?

His body language the other day, playing for England is all "come on lads, we can do it" even when subbed.

The look on his face as he was sat on the subs bench on against Lille on Thursday night (a game we were comfortably controlling) was sarcastic contempt.

I LOVE STEVEN GERRARD ETC... but, he's got to pull his head out of his arse for his club.
[/quote]

Agree with Spidey with the apathy which sets in due to lack of rotation 🙂) But I think this is a problem pre-Rafa. We have never been able to consistently punch above our weights. When our playing standards drop we conveniently adjust our expectations. Find reasons to why we should not be expecting to be the best. I will hold up my hand and say that I have been guilty of this also. I am sure if you dig up my past posts you will find plenty of examples of me defending some shit performance based on net spend etc.

and themn : My aim is not to single out players. If you look at Ferguson's reign at teh Scums, the number of times ordinary players have stood up and be counted is insanely high.

 

[themn]

[quote author=peekay link=topic=39438.msg1074479#msg1074479 date=1269194931]
[quote author=themn link=topic=39438.msg1074475#msg1074475 date=1269194464]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=39438.msg1074463#msg1074463 date=1269193705]
Of course it's not a reaction to todays loss. I think this debate has been going on for years now and you're absolutely correct.

It's perhaps one of the reasons that I actually do enjoy watching Rooney play for England (and link up with Gerrard) these days - his desire to win is infectious. It's something that goes beyond simply working hard and you can see it in every game he plays.

We have a few players like that with Masher and Reina being two of the best examples I can think of, however the club is simply littered with too many individuals that don't possess the same mental qualities. It's damaging.
[/quote]

It's funny you say this, Ken.

Where the fuck is Stevie's "mentality" these days ?

His body language the other day, playing for England is all "come on lads, we can do it" even when subbed.

The look on his face as he was sat on the subs bench on against Lille on Thursday night (a game we were comfortably controlling) was sarcastic contempt.

I LOVE STEVEN GERRARD ETC... but, he's got to pull his head out of his arse for his club.
[/quote]

Agree with Spidey with the apathy which sets in due to lack of rotation 🙂) But I think this is a problem pre-Rafa. We have never been able to consistently punch above our weights. When our playing standards drop we conveniently adjust our expectations. Find reasons to why we should not be expecting to be the best. I will hold up my hand and say that I have been guilty of this also. I am sure if you dig up my past posts you will find plenty of examples of me defending some shit performance based on net spend etc.

and themn : My aim is not to single out players. If you look at Ferguson's reign at teh Scums, the number of times ordinary players have stood up and be counted is insanely high.
[/quote]

I don't like to single anyone out particularly but, Steven Gerrard just did not turn up today and we need him to, especially against teams like Manchester United.

 

[spider-Neil]

when rafa first came it was rotation for rotation sake. I'm not talking rotation I'm purely talking about playing in form players and dropping players stinking the place out, that's not rocket science that should be common fucking sense.

 

[peekay]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=39438.msg1074484#msg1074484 date=1269195435]
when rafa first came it was rotation for rotation sake. I'm purely not talking rotation I'm talking about playing in form players and dropping players stinking the place out, that's not rocket science that should be common fucking sense.
[/quote]

I understood what you mean mate. I am not finding it ironical that the guy who rotated players with the intention of keeping them fresh now does not rotate at all, during the course of a season.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=peekay link=topic=39438.msg1074485#msg1074485 date=1269195547]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=39438.msg1074484#msg1074484 date=1269195435]
when rafa first came it was rotation for rotation sake. I'm purely not talking rotation I'm talking about playing in form players and dropping players stinking the place out, that's not rocket science that should be common fucking sense.
[/quote]

I understood what you mean mate. I am not finding it ironical that the guy who rotated players with the intention of keeping them fresh now does not rotate at all, during the course of a season.
[/quote]

rafa sees people as chess pieces rather than individuals. he looks at the oppersition and then picks players to counter that opposition. rafa is at his best when he has nothing to lose and gives the team more freedom, like the end of the last season or the CL final second half.

 

[SaintGeorge67]

To be fair, other than for about 10 minutes, we got destroyed in that second half against Milan, and for the whole of extra time.

 

[Whitey85]

Team of half arsed bottlers

 

[SaintGeorge67]

It wasn't the worst performance we've had (it was NO WHERE near as bad as Wigan) but against United we can't get by with a bunch of 6 out of 10's.

 

[manwithnoname]

rafa sees people as chess pieces rather than individuals. he looks at the oppersition and then picks players to counter that opposition. rafa is at his best when he has nothing to lose and gives the team more freedom, like the end of the last season or the CL final second half.

Who did he pick Insewer and Lucas to "counter"?

 

[FoxForceFive]

[quote author=Brendan link=topic=39438.msg1074502#msg1074502 date=1269197103]

rafa sees people as chess pieces rather than individuals. he looks at the oppersition and then picks players to counter that opposition. rafa is at his best when he has nothing to lose and gives the team more freedom, like the end of the last season or the CL final second half.

Who did he pick Insewer and Lucas to "counter"?
[/quote]

The RCDNW brigade. Those two players do a sterling job of countering any argument they come up with.

 

[franklyfrank]

What did you think of Captain Steven Gerrard's performance Brendan?

I thought we saw a fully committed and passionate performance by Captain Marvel.

Fantastic leadership throughout and i felt he took great responsibility in the heat of the battle.

 

[Avmenon]

I thought I saw a player who no longer had any faith or belief in the manager.

 

[Y1]

what is that we saw Torres hugging Neville?

we are doomed!

 

[spider-Neil]

I've said it before, our stye of play is mentally and physically draining because you are carrying out instructions to the letter rather than playing with freedom, you concentrating on nullifying the opposition rather then imposing yourself on them, that must take its toll. I think its no coincidence that gh's and rafa's best season in the league was followed by their worst*



*I know the season isn't over yet so its possible rafa wont finish lower than 5th but I doubt it

 

[the_khl]

Watching the game with a couple of friends I must say I felt almost embarrassed to keep on defending Gerrard.

As one said, he almost makes his teammates play worse?

Oh, and Lucas actually had quite a good game, moving the ball forward quickly-ish and making a few important challenges too.

If someone had just landed from a long trip to Mars and they knew nothing of whom is supposedly the better player few would pick Gerrard ahead of Lucas jugded by Sundays performances.

And therein lies the real problem these days and for most parts of this Season really as Lucas isn't that good a footballer. He's about decent.

 

[ibromurph]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=39438.msg1074799#msg1074799 date=1269248640]
I've said it before, our stye of play is mentally and physically draining because you are carrying out instructions to the letter rather than playing with freedom, you concentrating on nullifying the opposition rather then imposing yourself on them, that must take its toll. I think its no coincidence that gh's and rafa's best season in the league was followed by their worst*



*I know the season isn't over yet so its possible rafa wont finish lower than 5th but I doubt it
[/quote]

Yep. Fully agree. I always felt that we played such a mentally and physically taxing style of play which meant that 3 games in a week would always be a problem.

 

[ibromurph]

[quote author=the_khl link=topic=39438.msg1074805#msg1074805 date=1269249445]
Watching the game with a couple of friends I must say I felt almost embarrassed to keep on defending Gerrard.

As one said, he almost makes his teammates play worse?

Oh, and Lucas actually had quite a good game, moving the ball forward quickly-ish and making a few important challenges too.

If someone had just landed from a long trip to Mars and they knew nothing of whom is supposedly the better player few would pick Gerrard ahead of Lucas jugded by Sundays performances.

And therein lies the real problem these days and for most parts of this Season really as Lucas isn't that good a footballer. He's about decent.
[/quote]

Yet if Torres had his clinical shooting boots on, he could well have had 2 assists. As average as he played, he is still the only player in our final third who can consistently pick a pass, make a surging run, and create something (even if its just scraps) for Fernando to feed. Please lay off our captain, because he's as handcuffed by our tactics as Fernando is.

 

[the_khl]

[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=39438.msg1074871#msg1074871 date=1269255397]
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=39438.msg1074805#msg1074805 date=1269249445]
Watching the game with a couple of friends I must say I felt almost embarrassed to keep on defending Gerrard.

As one said, he almost makes his teammates play worse?

Oh, and Lucas actually had quite a good game, moving the ball forward quickly-ish and making a few important challenges too.

If someone had just landed from a long trip to Mars and they knew nothing of whom is supposedly the better player few would pick Gerrard ahead of Lucas jugded by Sundays performances.

And therein lies the real problem these days and for most parts of this Season really as Lucas isn't that good a footballer. He's about decent.
[/quote]

Yet if Torres had his clinical shooting boots on, he could well have had 2 assists. As average as he played, he is still the only player in our final third who can consistently pick a pass, make a surging run, and create something (even if its just scraps) for Fernando to feed. Please lay off our captain, because he's as handcuffed by our tactics as Fernando is.
[/quote]
That's just a bad excuse mate.

Nowhere on Rafa's chalk-board does it say - at least 30% of your passing should go to the opposition. (Nor 50% as was the case in the Wigan-game),

Gerrard is one of my all-time favourite footballers. Ever.

This Season however he's got to take a lot of the blame on his shoulders. He's simply gone from bad to worse.

Maybe it's because we've been used to him carrying us a bit to much and that's a completely different argument which evidenlty ends up at the managers desk, but he hasn't been anywhere near his best form and we've suffered from it.

For one he's only scored 6 league goals andthat's including goals from the spot.

 

[Avmenon]

[quote author=the_khl link=topic=39438.msg1074890#msg1074890 date=1269256735]
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=39438.msg1074871#msg1074871 date=1269255397]
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=39438.msg1074805#msg1074805 date=1269249445]
Watching the game with a couple of friends I must say I felt almost embarrassed to keep on defending Gerrard.

As one said, he almost makes his teammates play worse?

Oh, and Lucas actually had quite a good game, moving the ball forward quickly-ish and making a few important challenges too.

If someone had just landed from a long trip to Mars and they knew nothing of whom is supposedly the better player few would pick Gerrard ahead of Lucas jugded by Sundays performances.

And therein lies the real problem these days and for most parts of this Season really as Lucas isn't that good a footballer. He's about decent.
[/quote]

Yet if Torres had his clinical shooting boots on, he could well have had 2 assists. As average as he played, he is still the only player in our final third who can consistently pick a pass, make a surging run, and create something (even if its just scraps) for Fernando to feed. Please lay off our captain, because he's as handcuffed by our tactics as Fernando is.
[/quote]
That's just a bad excuse mate.

Nowhere on Rafa's chalk-board does it say - at least 30% of your passing should go to the opposition. (Nor 50% as was the case in the Wigan-game),

Gerrard is one of my all-time favourite footballers. Ever.

This Season however he's got to take a lot of the blame on his shoulders. He's simply gone from bad to worse.

Maybe it's because we've been used to him carrying us a bit to much and that's a completely different argument which evidenlty ends up at the managers desk, but he hasn't been anywhere near his best form and we've suffered from it.

For one he's only scored 6 league goals andthat's including goals from the spot.
[/quote]

Not for you, though.

 

[the_khl]

[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=39438.msg1074897#msg1074897 date=1269257502]
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=39438.msg1074890#msg1074890 date=1269256735]
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=39438.msg1074871#msg1074871 date=1269255397]
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=39438.msg1074805#msg1074805 date=1269249445]
Watching the game with a couple of friends I must say I felt almost embarrassed to keep on defending Gerrard.

As one said, he almost makes his teammates play worse?

Oh, and Lucas actually had quite a good game, moving the ball forward quickly-ish and making a few important challenges too.

If someone had just landed from a long trip to Mars and they knew nothing of whom is supposedly the better player few would pick Gerrard ahead of Lucas jugded by Sundays performances.

And therein lies the real problem these days and for most parts of this Season really as Lucas isn't that good a footballer. He's about decent.
[/quote]

Yet if Torres had his clinical shooting boots on, he could well have had 2 assists. As average as he played, he is still the only player in our final third who can consistently pick a pass, make a surging run, and create something (even if its just scraps) for Fernando to feed. Please lay off our captain, because he's as handcuffed by our tactics as Fernando is.
[/quote]
That's just a bad excuse mate.

Nowhere on Rafa's chalk-board does it say - at least 30% of your passing should go to the opposition. (Nor 50% as was the case in the Wigan-game),

Gerrard is one of my all-time favourite footballers. Ever.

This Season however he's got to take a lot of the blame on his shoulders. He's simply gone from bad to worse.

Maybe it's because we've been used to him carrying us a bit to much and that's a completely different argument which evidenlty ends up at the managers desk, but he hasn't been anywhere near his best form and we've suffered from it.

For one he's only scored 6 league goals andthat's including goals from the spot.
[/quote]

Not for you, though.
[/quote]
I was the one writing it wasn't I?

 

[Avmenon]

Indeed.

What you should explain is that the only reason you're being critical of Gerrard (and any other players) is because it allows you to deflect blame from Rafa.

Which is fine if it works for you.

Does it?

 

[Avmenon]

Which isn't to say he played well, because he didn't.

But when most of your players seem disinterested against our greatest rival; the rival which will dethrone us as England's most successful club ever in 2 months...well, we'd have to ask some tough questions.

 

[the_khl]

I don't know why you reckon I've got an agenda to defend Rafa criticizing Gerrard.

I simply don't.

Maybe you've mistaken me for someone else beacuse I'm not blind to Rafa's faults as a manager hence why I write about them.

You can bang whatever drum you like fact of the matter is Gerrard has been performing well below normal standards and for reasons not even slightly football-related I'm affraid. At least that's not far of to belive that off-field shenanigans has somehow affected him as it would most people on planet earth.

The bar-brawl, then the trial in court and now he's (according FFF) apparently also facing domestic difficulties.

In the end the position of Liverpool FC all comes down to Rafa though and this could be his final Season here, although I don't think it's a fair Season for him to be judged solely upon but that's life I reckon.

I'll keep my fingers firmly crossed that if we don't reach fourth someone great will come in instead. And I'm obviously not talking about Jose fekkin Mourinho.

 

[Avmenon]

[quote author=the_khl link=topic=39438.msg1074920#msg1074920 date=1269258834]
I don't know why you reckon I've got an agenda to defend Rafa criticizing Gerrard.

I simply don't.

Maybe you've mistaken me for someone else beacuse I'm not blind to Rafa's faults as a manager hence why I write about them.

You can bang whatever drum you like fact of the matter is Gerrard has been performing well below normal standards and for reasons not even slightly football-related I'm affraid. At least that's not far of to belive that off-field shenanigans has somehow affected him as it would most people on planet earth.

The bar-brawl, then the trial in court and now he's (according FFF) apparently also facing domestic difficulties.

In the end the position of Liverpool FC all comes down to Rafa though and this could be his final Season here, although I don't think it's a fair Season for him to be judged solely upon but that's life I reckon.

I'll keep my fingers firmly crossed that if we don't reach fourth someone great will come in instead. And I'm obviously not talking about Jose fekkin Mourinho.
[/quote]

At this point, I'd even be happy with Michael fekkin Laudrup, Kristian.

Rafa isnt being judged on this one season alone; he's being judged on his 6-year plan.