Meet the new boss ...

[mark1975]

I don't think anyone does Jexy, it's just a bit of perspective really. There are people constantly blowing smoke up Klopps arse, and his system, to the point where anything but his system is the wrong way to play football. We're no more or less effective than we were in Rodgers first 50 odd games. It's just a bit ironic when we had posters like Redninja posting he wanted Rodgers out after 5 minutes and was then being a patronising idiot posting comments like "this is a proper manager lads", about Klopp. Give it a continuation of poor form and he'll probably want Klopp out too.

As for me, I want Klopp to show he's got something more in him, than sitting in dugout refusing to change things, in some stubborn mindset that although his system isn't working yet, it will one day. You have to have more than that, you have to have the ability and willingness to work with what you have and utilise what you have, AND to change things early if it's not working. His games and tactics are numbing me into resignation, that he's just another manager who will be the victim of his own stubborn nature.

I really hope the stories are true about big changes against Spurs. That will be a start.

 

[moron]

Dont know what he will change though with the players he has ? I wonder what he means by big changes .... Moreno back in ... Lucas in the middle instead of Can...the youngsters in ?

 

[Hansern]

A bit of perspective? I think most are in the "we just want Klopp to sort this out now" camp, not the he cant do anything wrong.
You got the other end of the scale that are overly critical aswell, which is equally frustrating to read. Most of them thought Rodgers got the sack to early and uses everything they can to drum in that argument. Its fucking tiresome to read.

 

[LarryHagman]

Well said Mark.

 

[Rosco]

They do not paint the full picture as you are well aware

What picture are you accusing me of painting ?

 

[Insignificance]

I don't think anyone does Jexy, it's just a bit of perspective really. There are people constantly blowing smoke up Klopps arse, and his system, to the point where anything but his system is the wrong way to play football. We're no more or less effective than we were in Rodgers first 50 odd games. It's just a bit ironic when we had posters like Redninja posting he wanted Rodgers out after 5 minutes and was then being a patronising idiot posting comments like "this is a proper manager lads", about Klopp. Give it a continuation of poor form and he'll probably want Klopp out too.

As for me, I want Klopp to show he's got something more in him, than sitting in dugout refusing to change things, in some stubborn mindset that although his system isn't working yet, it will one day. You have to have more than that, you have to have the ability and willingness to work with what you have and utilise what you have, AND to change things early if it's not working. His games and tactics are numbing me into resignation, that he's just another manager who will be the victim of his own stubborn nature.

I really hope the stories are true about big changes against Spurs. That will be a start.

What changes do you expect to see? We seem to have "success" against the better teams, so it would be interesting to hear where we should change now?

And i ask only out of curiosity and interest 🙂

 

[Best Believe It]

I really hope the stories are true about big changes against Spurs. That will be a start.

What stories, out of interest?

 

[manwithnoname]

I don't think anyone does Jexy, it's just a bit of perspective really. There are people constantly blowing smoke up Klopps arse, and his system, to the point where anything but his system is the wrong way to play football. We're no more or less effective than we were in Rodgers first 50 odd games. It's just a bit ironic when we had posters like Redninja posting he wanted Rodgers out after 5 minutes and was then being a patronising idiot posting comments like "this is a proper manager lads", about Klopp. Give it a continuation of poor form and he'll probably want Klopp out too.

As for me, I want Klopp to show he's got something more in him, than sitting in dugout refusing to change things, in some stubborn mindset that although his system isn't working yet, it will one day. You have to have more than that, you have to have the ability and willingness to work with what you have and utilise what you have, AND to change things early if it's not working. His games and tactics are numbing me into resignation, that he's just another manager who will be the victim of his own stubborn nature.

I really hope the stories are true about big changes against Spurs. That will be a start.

There's nothing wrong with posting these facts. Prompts discussion.

I don't think there's anything definitive about them; different teams, different environment, different context.

But I do think it helps to temper some of the delirious, blinkered fanboy spastic behaviour, where any dissenting voices about how well we are doing and how wonderful Klopp is and just look what an amazing job he's done with players that weren't any good under Rodgers! were shouted down and dismissed.

And now, sadly belatedly, everyone else has also arrived at the sad realisation that, as usual, we have laughably overrated most of our players, and need massive investment into the team in all the obvious areas most of us knew where an issue.

As for Klopp vs Rodgers, that would seem to be a very shallow perspective. There's no value in that kind of comparison. I don't think anyone would say right now that they would prefer Rodgers to be manager, rather than Klopp. The evidence so far, taken as a whole, is that Klopp is better. Two Bundesliga titles are all he needs to make that case. He's far more respected and his stature is a different level; Rodgers can't even get close.

But all that counts is what Klopp achieves at Liverpool. And so far it's nothing. And certainly not even the modest levels of success Rodgers delivered, even though the time periods are not equal.

As for the final point about making big changes for the Spurs game, I'm surely not the only one dreading that. WHAT fucking big changes? There's been nobody who has looked like taking a regular first team spot, form the youth teams or Ressies.

The bench always looks average. At best. What have we got to look forward to? Wijnaldum for Can? Yayyyyy! Klownius for Mongolet? Wooooooo! Dismal Origi for Firminohno? Huzzah!

 

[hmmmmm1]

Until Klopp wins a trophy these stats will always be reeled out.

 

[davud graham]

There's nothing wrong with posting these facts. Prompts discussion.

I don't think there's anything definitive about them; different teams, different environment, different context.

But I do think it helps to temper some of the delirious, blinkered fanboy spastic behaviour, where any dissenting voices about how well we are doing and how wonderful Klopp is and just look what an amazing job he's done with players that weren't any good under Rodgers! were shouted down and dismissed.

And now, sadly belatedly, everyone else has also arrived at the sad realisation that, as usual, we have laughably overrated most of our players, and need massive investment into the team in all the obvious areas most of us knew where an issue.

As for Klopp vs Rodgers, that would seem to be a very shallow perspective. There's no value in that kind of comparison. I don't think anyone would say right now that they would prefer Rodgers to be manager, rather than Klopp. The evidence so far, taken as a whole, is that Klopp is better. Two Bundesliga titles are all he needs to make that case. He's far more respected and his stature is a different level; Rodgers can't even get close.

But all that counts is what Klopp achieves at Liverpool. And so far it's nothing. And certainly not even the modest levels of success Rodgers delivered, even though the time periods are not equal.

As for the final point about making big changes for the Spurs game, I'm surely not the only one dreading that. WHAT fucking big changes? There's been nobody who has looked like taking a regular first team spot, form the youth teams or Ressies.

The bench always looks average. At best. What have we got to look forward to? Wijnaldum for Can? Yayyyyy! Klownius for Mongolet? Wooooooo! Dismal Origi for Firminohno? Huzzah!

The big change could be the formation as clearly most teams have found a way to nullify its effectiveness. Maybe Spurs aren't the ideal team to try it out as they probably wouldn't have parked the bus as I'm sure they're pretty confident at the moment but a new system could scupper any specific plans they have made.
In terms of personnel I agree that he hasn't got enough options from the bench or squad to make huge changes but he could tweak a thing or two.
Alexander Arnold could come in at right back and switch Clyne to left back where he done pretty well in the few games he's played there and his pace would help against Kyle Walker, which would free up Milner to play in midfield. He could even try playing Mane up front as none of our strikers at the moment are impressing.

 

[dantes]

The big change could be the formation as clearly most teams have found a way to nullify its effectiveness. Maybe Spurs aren't the ideal team to try it out as they probably wouldn't have parked the bus as I'm sure they're pretty confident at the moment but a new system could scupper any specific plans they have made.
In terms of personnel I agree that he hasn't got enough options from the bench or squad to make huge changes but he could tweak a thing or two.
Alexander Arnold could come in at right back and switch Clyne to left back where he done pretty well in the few games he's played there and his pace would help against Kyle Walker, which would free up Milner to play in midfield. He could even try playing Mane up front as none of our strikers at the moment are impressing.

To change it now, after being forced to do so, is only going to make him look utterly weak. Perhaps he deserves it. But the self-absorbed fucker should have planned for this months ago when we were playing well, brought Sturridge on in games with a purpose, and adopted our approach to suit. Or even brought cunts like Lucas on and adopted a more defensive approach. Instead he stuck with the same approach, brought our best striker into it, and made him look like a worthless piece of shit. So there's no real place to go from here. If he wants to counter-attack now, after he's been dicked over for an entire month, well too fucking bad because now Sturridge is no longer up to it thanks to our incompetent destruction of his confidence and perhaps even his very faith in God. If I were Klopp, I'd throw the obvious players under the bus at this point, so it looks like I am ruthless and the shit form was all the players fault rather than my own stupidity/arrogance. Then I would start again next season with new players, lessons learned from my fuck-ups, and an undamaged reputation.

 

[davud graham]

To change it now, after being forced to do so, is only going to make him look utterly weak. Perhaps he deserves it. But the self-absorbed fucker should have planned for this months ago when we were playing well, brought Sturridge on in games with a purpose, and adopted our approach to suit. Or even brought cunts like Lucas on and adopted a more defensive approach. Instead he stuck with the same approach, brought our best striker into it, and made him look like a worthless piece of shit. So there's no real place to go from here. If he wants to counter-attack now, after he's been dicked over for an entire month, well too fucking bad because now Sturridge is no longer up to it thanks to our incompetent destruction of his confidence and perhaps even his very faith in God. If I were Klopp, I'd throw the obvious players under the bus at this point, so it looks like I am ruthless and the shit form was all the players fault rather than my own stupidity/arrogance. Then I would start again next season with new players, lessons learned from my fuck-ups, and an undamaged reputation.

Klopp's talked about finding solutions for the current form but we'll have to wait and see if that mean changes in the starting line up or system/ formation. It's more likely he means a change in approach,attitude,self belief,confidence, patience and all the other mental things our players have lacked for 25 years so good luck with that Jurgen.

 

[Best Believe It]

To change it now, after being forced to do so, is only going to make him look utterly weak. Perhaps he deserves it. But the self-absorbed fucker should have planned for this months ago when we were playing well, brought Sturridge on in games with a purpose, and adopted our approach to suit. Or even brought cunts like Lucas on and adopted a more defensive approach. Instead he stuck with the same approach, brought our best striker into it, and made him look like a worthless piece of shit. So there's no real place to go from here. If he wants to counter-attack now, after he's been dicked over for an entire month, well too fucking bad because now Sturridge is no longer up to it thanks to our incompetent destruction of his confidence and perhaps even his very faith in God. If I were Klopp, I'd throw the obvious players under the bus at this point, so it looks like I am ruthless and the shit form was all the players fault rather than my own stupidity/arrogance. Then I would start again next season with new players, lessons learned from my fuck-ups, and an undamaged reputation.

Did it make Conte look weak after he was 'forced' to change the formation? The only thing that makes any difference is whether it works or not. I think most people will expect some sort of change, and Klopp doesn't seem particularly bothered about perception, only results. Which is as it should be.

So he should have been amending our formation and team when we were doing well, despite the fact that our formation and team was getting results? I'm struggling to understand how this makes sense. I'm not sure how Sturridge's confidence has been destroyed by 'us' in some way... by him not playing well? He's been given ample opportunity in his preferred position and hasn't taken it. It's not as if we've been playing him left back and hauling him off after 20 minutes.

Plus, I'm always surprised by how many people assume all this stuff doesn't happen in training. Trying out different formations, personnel etc.

 

[dantes]

Did it make Conte look weak after he was 'forced' to change the formation? The only thing that makes any difference is whether it works or not. I think most people will expect some sort of change, and Klopp doesn't seem particularly bothered about perception, only results. Which is as it should be.

So he should have been amending our formation and team when we were doing well, despite the fact that our formation and team was getting results? I'm struggling to understand how this makes sense. I'm not sure how Sturridge's confidence has been destroyed by 'us' in some way... by him not playing well? He's been given ample opportunity in his preferred position and hasn't taken it. It's not as if we've been playing him left back and hauling him off after 20 minutes.

Plus, I'm always surprised by how many people assume all this stuff doesn't happen in training. Trying out different formations, personnel etc.

It made Conte look stronger, because he came in and tried it Chelsea's way first so he looked good for that. Then it didn't work out, he said fuck all of you I'm doing it my way. He looks even more good now. That is a different situation to the one Klopp is in.

My point is Klopp had a better system than Conte, more diversified, less prone to failure, and he must have become complacent. He should have known that at some point he'd need to adapt his system, not over the course of a season, but during a game or for particular games. So whilst we were playing well, he should have been thinking of how to utilise Sturridge in a system which suits him. So all those times when he played Sturridge or brought him on in games, that is when he should have been beta testing his alternative system. That means not bringing Sturridge on and telling him to press like Firmino, but calming things down, playing another striker with him, sitting back more to give him space. Whatever it is, we should have made those changes and had a plan on how to use him. Klopp has no plan, he's just thrown him onto the pitch and expects him to score goals because, hugs.

So the problem now is we've murdered Sturridge, he has zero confidence, defenders aren't even afraid of him anymore. He's done. At the same time, because they know we have no other way of playing, they're no longer afraid of us either.

 

[dantes]

This change you are thinking he will make, it's going to be giving up some possession and trying to play counter-attack. That will be it, it might look different or have different names, but that's the essence of our alternative. So then think it through, counter-attack means we do nothing, do nothing, nothing nothing nothing, and then wham we get a chance. So we need a player who can be trusted to take that chance, otherwise you have nothing. That player used to be Sturridge. So I trust you can see the problem with this noble idea of changing things we've belatedly come to.

 

[nealmac]

Suarez is definitely the big difference between the 2. This is still a valid thread though, and I'd be lying if I said it's not a bit worrying.

 

[Jerry Laser]

Fucking hell..... this isnt even Klopps team yet.... only then after a season or 2 can we really scrutinise him.

Its a fucking joke nowadays how fickle sad fans expect results straight away.

Let alone the fact that he obviously has his hands tied behind his back a bit to save cash (probably due to the new stand).

 

[davud graham]

Of course the stats don't mean anything concrete but it is interesting as it's a remarkable coincidence how close their respective records are. I suppose you can read into them whatever you wish determined by your respective views on either manager but it doesn't mean much.
If either of them had a trophy next to their name at LFC then there wouldn't even be an argument but sadly neither does.
Liverpool managers are judged on trophies won by the fans and rightly so.

 

[Insignificance]

This change you are thinking he will make, it's going to be giving up some possession and trying to play counter-attack. That will be it, it might look different or have different names, but that's the essence of our alternative. So then think it through, counter-attack means we do nothing, do nothing, nothing nothing nothing, and then wham we get a chance. So we need a player who can be trusted to take that chance, otherwise you have nothing. That player used to be Sturridge. So I trust you can see the problem with this noble idea of changing things we've belatedly come to.

Well to expect less possesion against Spurs than Hull is only natural. We played dfferently against City too. I thouhgt that was the strength of Klopp and his team, that they spend so much time analyzing the opposition that they have a very good idea on how to hurt them.

 

[dantes]

Well to expect less possesion against Spurs than Hull is only natural. We played dfferently against City too. I thouhgt that was the strength of Klopp and his team, that they spend so much time analyzing the opposition that they have a very good idea on how to hurt them.

That's the problem with analysing past games, the past tells us that defenders should be afraid of seeing Coutinho or Lallana on the ball and run out to close the space, leaving gaps to make runs. Except now they're not, they quite rightly don't give a shit about our players. So the analysis needs to focus upon that, upon what teams will actually do to us in the future. Alas it is going to be very hard for us to predict the future when we've employed a bunch of stupid kids who use laptops to pour over past statistical data. A bunch of glorified roscos. Klopp is on his own, his team should quietly be thrown under the bus along with the players.

 

[King Binny]

It is worth noting that the Man Utd appointments (Moyes, van Gaal, Mourinho) were all made in May and each had loads to spend thus the comparison were easier/more direct.

Meanwhile, lots of differences if one analysis the details beyond the numbers (squad inherited obviously mentioned in earlier posts - no Carra, Gerrard, Suarez, Sterling + a Sturridge who only made 18 appearance in whole of previous season)

Brendan Rodgers First 54 league time span --> 18 Aug 12 to 16 Dec 13

• Appointed in Jun 2012
• Took over a team that finished 8th (52 pts), won the League Cup and reached the FA Cup final. Previous 5 seasons: 8th, 6th, 7th, 2nd, 4th
• 2 preseasons
• 2 summer, 1 winter transfer window
• 15 players signed (Fabio Borini, Joe Allen, Oussama Assaidi, Nuri Sahin, Samed Yesil, Daniel Sturridge, Philippe Coutinho, Luis Alberto, Iago Aspas, Simon Mignolet, Kolo Touré, Aly Cissokho, Mamadou Sakho, Tiago Ilori, Victor Moses)
• League Cup - 4th round, 3rd round
• FA Cup - 4th round
• Europa League - Round of 32
• vs. "Big 6" (P13 W3 D5 L5) - Won twice vs. Tottenham, once vs. Man Utd

Jurgen Klopp First 54 league time span --> 17 Oct 15 to 04 Feb 17

• Appointed in October 2015
• Took over a team that finished 6th (62 pts), reached League Cup & FA Cup semi finals and Europa League round of 32. Previous 5 seasons: 6th, 2nd, 7th, 8th, 6th
• 1 preseason
• 1 summer, 2 winter transfer window
• 8 players signed (Marko Grujic, Steven Caulker, Sadio Mané, Loris Karius, Joël Matip, Ragnar Klavan, Alex Manninger, Georginio Wijnaldum)
• League Cup - Final, semi final
• FA Cup - 4th round, 4th round
• Europa League - Final
• vs. "Big 6" (P15 W6 D8 L1) - Beat Man City thrice, Chelsea twice, Arsenal once

 

[Judge Jules]

Of course the stats don't mean anything concrete but it is interesting as it's a remarkable coincidence how close their respective records are. I suppose you can read into them whatever you wish determined by your respective views on either manager but it doesn't mean much.
If either of them had a trophy next to their name at LFC then there wouldn't even be an argument but sadly neither does.
Liverpool managers are judged on trophies won by the fans and rightly so.

They are, but not when they've hardly started their time with us. It's waaaaay previous to judge Klopp and will be for a very long time yet.

 

[davud graham]

They are, but not when they've hardly started their time with us. It's waaaaay previous to judge Klopp and will be for a very long time yet.

We can judge him on his mistakes surely? Not to the extent that anyone is looking to replace him as that would be very short sighted given the short time he's been at the club but at the same time there's nothing wrong with questioning some of his decisions.
No one is ever right all the time and if Klopp can learn from this bad run then we may be better off in the long term but only time will tell.

 

[Best Believe It]

It's not too early to judge Klopp, so long as people realise there are more caveats than not this early in his tenure and there's nuance involved. He hasn't overhauled the squad - and it clearly needs an overhaul - but then it's been partly because he's chosen not to do so initially. It looks like he's taking a lengthy look at the players, how they respond to different situations, and will make more of a judgement by the time the summer window comes around. Whether that is a good thing in the long-term and gives him a better and more specific idea of what sort of player we need (I'm not talking positionally here) we'll have to wait and see.

I don't think it's in question that Rodgers had a better starting squad on paper, but as has been said, the Suarez that ended up leaving was a much better player than the Suarez that had played the first 6 months with us and that's partly down to Rodgers. Reina's attitude was questionable, Agger was on the wane and so was Gerrard.

 

[Judge Jules]

Questioning is one thing, judging another. I certainly agree Klopp has questions to answer, but to me the term "judging" implies reaching a firm conclusion and I maintain it's grossly early to be doing that where Klopp's concerned.

 

[peekay]

I don't think anyone does Jexy, it's just a bit of perspective really. There are people constantly blowing smoke up Klopps arse, and his system, to the point where anything but his system is the wrong way to play football. We're no more or less effective than we were in Rodgers first 50 odd games. It's just a bit ironic when we had posters like Redninja posting he wanted Rodgers out after 5 minutes and was then being a patronising idiot posting comments like "this is a proper manager lads", about Klopp. Give it a continuation of poor form and he'll probably want Klopp out too.

As for me, I want Klopp to show he's got something more in him, than sitting in dugout refusing to change things, in some stubborn mindset that although his system isn't working yet, it will one day. You have to have more than that, you have to have the ability and willingness to work with what you have and utilise what you have, AND to change things early if it's not working. His games and tactics are numbing me into resignation, that he's just another manager who will be the victim of his own stubborn nature.

I really hope the stories are true about big changes against Spurs. That will be a start.

Good post. I don't think there is a lot separating Houllier, Rafa, King Kenny, Brendan, and Klopp. They all have their positives - Houllier, Rafa know how to set up a defense; Klopp and Brendan know how to setup an attack. They all had their breathtaking moments and their lows.

Houllier and Rafa won us several important shiny trophies. But they also had access to a young Steven Gerrard. For example, I think Klopp would have torn the league a new hole if he had an 18 year old Owen and Gerrard with a 24 year old Fowler. The number of consistently legitimate competitors for the CL places were lower under Houllier and Rafa which made it easier to attract top talents from Europe.

None of them are particularly good on transfers. They all had their notable successes and failures. Failures primarily occurring when they tried to stretch a pot of money across too many positions. All of them "got" the club, the city and would sacrifice body parts and organs to win us the league. So while I might have criticized them during their final seasons, I have really fond memories of all of them. They gave their everything.

Having said all that, I wouldn't consider replacing Klopp irrespective of whether we qualify for the CL or not:

(i) Very good representative of the club and the city. We do not have an iconic character at the club who attracts eyeballs. Klopp is box office.
(ii) When it works, his style of football is brilliant. Important for TV viewership.
(iii) Knows how to maintain good relationships with owners and staff.
(iv) His gravitas in Germany means we will always be linked to young talents like Brandt and Pulisic and hot shot attacking fullbacks with Eastern European names. It will give us a feeling of being relevant until Brandt signs a new contract and we submit the inevitable 40 million bid for Nathan Redmond.
(v) I dont think we are going to get anyone better.
(vi) I dont think we are going to consistently challenge at the top until we change the way we scout, do transfers, and support our managers.

 

[moron]

That's the problem with analysing past games, the past tells us that defenders should be afraid of seeing Coutinho or Lallana on the ball and run out to close the space, leaving gaps to make runs. Except now they're not, they quite rightly don't give a shit about our players. So the analysis needs to focus upon that, upon what teams will actually do to us in the future. Alas it is going to be very hard for us to predict the future when we've employed a bunch of stupid kids who use laptops to pour over past statistical data. A bunch of glorified roscos. Klopp is on his own, his team should quietly be thrown under the bus along with the players.

Throw them under a bus ? Then we wony have a team and lose 3 points by default.

 

[davud graham]

Questioning is one thing, judging another. I certainly agree Klopp has questions to answer, but to me the term "judging" implies reaching a firm conclusion and I maintain it's grossly early to be doing that where Klopp's concerned.

I think you just want a monopoly on Judging
So if I think he made a mistake in not strengthening the squad in the january window is that judging his decision or questioning his decision because it feels like the same thing to me.
Is it too early to judge him favourably also or does it only apply to negative things?
I'm quite keen on us performing well for the rest of the season but that doesn't mean I expect us to perform well.

 

[Judge Jules]

I can't answer your first sentence because I have no idea what it means.

As far as not strengthening the squad is concerned, I agree it was a mistake but it's far from clear that that was Klopp's decision alone. He may well have been at least partly under instructions and I'd want to ask (guess what) questions about that before I formed a view about Klopp's own part in it.

It's far too early to reach any overall judgment about him, favourable or otherwise.

I'm afraid I can't see the relevance of your final sentence to what we're discussing.

 

[davud graham]

I can't answer your first sentence because I have no idea what it means.

As far as not strengthening the squad is concerned, I agree it was a mistake but it's far from clear that that was Klopp's decision alone. He may well have been at least partly under instructions and I'd want to ask (guess what) questions about that before I formed a view about Klopp's own part in it.

It's far too early to reach any overall judgment about him, favourable or otherwise.

I'm afraid I can't see the relevance of your final sentence to what we're discussing.

I was joking in the first sentence about you telling us off for judging but you being Judge jules. I could have put an emoji at the end but i hate all that shit.
It may not have been Klopps decision alone but he's mentioned numerous times his reluctance to buy in January and he's unlikely to admit he's not fully in control of transfers after often saying that he is. We may never know.
I agree with the overall judgement thing but recent results have put him under increasing pressure and i would have hoped he would have dealt with it better and the rest of the season will be interesting to see how he and the players deal with it. He salvaged his last season with Dortmund after a disastrous spell so who knows.
The last sentence wasn't really about this discussion but more about hope and expectation and how they rarely they coincide as a Liverpool fan.