Litmanen...
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the_khl
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Class act.
[quote author=Asim link=topic=42019.msg1181008#msg1181008 date=1285239471]
I Loved Jari, Went to watch a game I think it was Anelkas first game also and I really felt we were on the up.
Then sold Jari and let Anelka go.
[/quote]
The disgraceful way in which Jari was treated gave me my first doubts about GH. They hardened into real concern when he decided against signing Nico Anelka on a permanent.
In a way the biggest tragedy about both him and Rafa was that they both came so near before they fell so far.
I Loved Jari, Went to watch a game I think it was Anelkas first game also and I really felt we were on the up.
Then sold Jari and let Anelka go.
[/quote]
The disgraceful way in which Jari was treated gave me my first doubts about GH. They hardened into real concern when he decided against signing Nico Anelka on a permanent.
In a way the biggest tragedy about both him and Rafa was that they both came so near before they fell so far.
Disgraceful? He was past his best by miles, hardly ever fit, got knackered after about 60 minutes, and often appeared like he couldn't be arsed to run. He could only play in one position, required the whole team to be built around him, and wasn't a great trainer either, especially if there was an international approaching.
Litmanen's Liverpool career was a waste of time and to blame GH for it soley is a travesty
Litmanen's Liverpool career was a waste of time and to blame GH for it soley is a travesty
These things are admittedly rarely (if ever) just one person's fault, that much is true. However, Litmanen himself (who by then was scoring CL goals for Ajax again) said in an interview after he left that he didn't know why he'd been cut out of the picture so far so quickly at LFC, which from someone that dignified and professional is code for "WTF?". If he really WAS that far gone, why did we sign him?
Greattttt goal
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=42019.msg1181047#msg1181047 date=1285245942]
Disgraceful? He was past his best by miles, hardly ever fit, got knackered after about 60 minutes, and often appeared like he couldn't be arsed to run. He could only play in one position, required the whole team to be built around him, and wasn't a great trainer either, especially if there was an international approaching.
Litmanen's Liverpool career was a waste of time and to blame GH for it soley is a travesty
[/quote]
One of the most talented players to play for Liverpool in the past 20 years (but rarely had a chance to show it). And you're writing him off like this? Come on!
Disgraceful? He was past his best by miles, hardly ever fit, got knackered after about 60 minutes, and often appeared like he couldn't be arsed to run. He could only play in one position, required the whole team to be built around him, and wasn't a great trainer either, especially if there was an international approaching.
Litmanen's Liverpool career was a waste of time and to blame GH for it soley is a travesty
[/quote]
One of the most talented players to play for Liverpool in the past 20 years (but rarely had a chance to show it). And you're writing him off like this? Come on!
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=42019.msg1181041#msg1181041 date=1285245638]
[quote author=Asim link=topic=42019.msg1181008#msg1181008 date=1285239471]
I Loved Jari, Went to watch a game I think it was Anelkas first game also and I really felt we were on the up.
Then sold Jari and let Anelka go.
[/quote]
The disgraceful way in which Jari was treated gave me my first doubts about GH. They hardened into real concern when he decided against signing Nico Anelka on a permanent.
In a way the biggest tragedy about both him and Rafa was that they both came so near before they fell so far.
[/quote]
indeed. what could have been.
[quote author=Asim link=topic=42019.msg1181008#msg1181008 date=1285239471]
I Loved Jari, Went to watch a game I think it was Anelkas first game also and I really felt we were on the up.
Then sold Jari and let Anelka go.
[/quote]
The disgraceful way in which Jari was treated gave me my first doubts about GH. They hardened into real concern when he decided against signing Nico Anelka on a permanent.
In a way the biggest tragedy about both him and Rafa was that they both came so near before they fell so far.
[/quote]
indeed. what could have been.
He was effective when he got the chance, which wasn't often enough.
I was very excited when we signed him. Looking back though, I think one of the great things that Houllier did for the club was to distinguish between talented players and players who could be part of a very good team. I always assumed that he brought in Litmanen *because he could* (a bit like Guardiola and Mascherano) but a combination of the player's own reluctance to comply with his instructions/expectations and his own inability to figure how best to use him, rendered the whole move a failure.
That second sentence puzzles me, gene. Even if you specifically mean "part of a very good Houllier team", I don't think getting rid of players who couldn't fit that template (Jari being one example) always helped the club by any means, or meant the players in question couldn't be part of a very good team. Look at Nico Anelka now. Look at Jari himself, going back to Ajax after leaving LFC and having an excellent last hurrah in the Champs League.
Litmanen is one of those who seems better because of what happened afterwards.
In reality though when he was here we had Owen, we had Fowler and Heskey was looking good then too. Even later on we signed Baros and it looked like signing Anelka. Not too many complained when Litmanen was sold.
Problem was that Heskey's form seriously dipped, Owen was injured then left and we signed Diouf - nuff said. Suddenly selling Litmanen seemed like a mistake of sorts.
When we got rid the reasoning was pretty sound though, and the same goes for Anelka actually.
In reality though when he was here we had Owen, we had Fowler and Heskey was looking good then too. Even later on we signed Baros and it looked like signing Anelka. Not too many complained when Litmanen was sold.
Problem was that Heskey's form seriously dipped, Owen was injured then left and we signed Diouf - nuff said. Suddenly selling Litmanen seemed like a mistake of sorts.
When we got rid the reasoning was pretty sound though, and the same goes for Anelka actually.
I was one of those who did complain about Jari being let go. My recollection is that a number of others also did, although in fairness there were a number who supported the decision too.
On the subject of Anelka, I strongly disagree. He was integral to the line-up which did so well in those six months and Thommo, Sammy Lee and Stevie G all said at the time or since that he'd been excellent. The fact that we got Spit the Dog instead added insult to injury, but the decision to let Anelka go was a poor one either way.
On the subject of Anelka, I strongly disagree. He was integral to the line-up which did so well in those six months and Thommo, Sammy Lee and Stevie G all said at the time or since that he'd been excellent. The fact that we got Spit the Dog instead added insult to injury, but the decision to let Anelka go was a poor one either way.
Sorry, that sentence does sort of jump out a bit.
I suppose what I mean is that unlike Evans, who I liked a lot but I felt was quite indulgent of players and especially talented players, Houllier seemed to introduce a bit more of a team and/or work ethic.
I have always thought of Houllier coming in and making it clear that he wanted players who would work hard in training and on the pitch and if they didn't then bye-bye - no matter how talented they were. I've even suspected that he didn't want a player around who slacked off in training even if that same player was performing well in matches - simply because he didn't want exceptionalism in the squad.
I'll gladly admit that the problem with this kind of inflexibility is that it doesn't always help you get to the next and final level - which is also what failed Rafa although I think his inflexibility was a little different in nature.
I suppose what I mean is that unlike Evans, who I liked a lot but I felt was quite indulgent of players and especially talented players, Houllier seemed to introduce a bit more of a team and/or work ethic.
I have always thought of Houllier coming in and making it clear that he wanted players who would work hard in training and on the pitch and if they didn't then bye-bye - no matter how talented they were. I've even suspected that he didn't want a player around who slacked off in training even if that same player was performing well in matches - simply because he didn't want exceptionalism in the squad.
I'll gladly admit that the problem with this kind of inflexibility is that it doesn't always help you get to the next and final level - which is also what failed Rafa although I think his inflexibility was a little different in nature.
Excellent post, wouldn't take issue with any of that.
[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=42019.msg1181277#msg1181277 date=1285269569]
Sorry, that sentence does sort of jump out a bit.
I suppose what I mean is that unlike Evans, who I liked a lot but I felt was quite indulgent of players and especially talented players, Houllier seemed to introduce a bit more of a team and/or work ethic.
I have always thought of Houllier coming in and making it clear that he wanted players who would work hard in training and on the pitch and if they didn't then bye-bye - no matter how talented they were. I've even suspected that he didn't want a player around who slacked off in training even if that same player was performing well in matches - simply because he didn't want exceptionalism in the squad.
I'll gladly admit that the problem with this kind of inflexibility is that it doesn't always help you get to the next and final level - which is also what failed Rafa although I think his inflexibility was a little different in nature.
[/quote]
Excellant post.
Do you think Fowler fell into this category?
Sorry, that sentence does sort of jump out a bit.
I suppose what I mean is that unlike Evans, who I liked a lot but I felt was quite indulgent of players and especially talented players, Houllier seemed to introduce a bit more of a team and/or work ethic.
I have always thought of Houllier coming in and making it clear that he wanted players who would work hard in training and on the pitch and if they didn't then bye-bye - no matter how talented they were. I've even suspected that he didn't want a player around who slacked off in training even if that same player was performing well in matches - simply because he didn't want exceptionalism in the squad.
I'll gladly admit that the problem with this kind of inflexibility is that it doesn't always help you get to the next and final level - which is also what failed Rafa although I think his inflexibility was a little different in nature.
[/quote]
Excellant post.
Do you think Fowler fell into this category?
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=42019.msg1181047#msg1181047 date=1285245942]
Disgraceful? He was past his best by miles, hardly ever fit, got knackered after about 60 minutes, and often appeared like he couldn't be arsed to run. He could only play in one position, required the whole team to be built around him, and wasn't a great trainer either, especially if there was an international approaching.
Litmanen's Liverpool career was a waste of time and to blame GH for it soley is a travesty
[/quote]
He bought him and didn't know how to play him, like he did with Smicer, he had a problem accommodating players in the 'hole' position because he was fond of a big centre forward a bit too much.
Disgraceful? He was past his best by miles, hardly ever fit, got knackered after about 60 minutes, and often appeared like he couldn't be arsed to run. He could only play in one position, required the whole team to be built around him, and wasn't a great trainer either, especially if there was an international approaching.
Litmanen's Liverpool career was a waste of time and to blame GH for it soley is a travesty
[/quote]
He bought him and didn't know how to play him, like he did with Smicer, he had a problem accommodating players in the 'hole' position because he was fond of a big centre forward a bit too much.
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=42019.msg1181340#msg1181340 date=1285298706]
[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=42019.msg1181277#msg1181277 date=1285269569]
Sorry, that sentence does sort of jump out a bit.
I suppose what I mean is that unlike Evans, who I liked a lot but I felt was quite indulgent of players and especially talented players, Houllier seemed to introduce a bit more of a team and/or work ethic.
I have always thought of Houllier coming in and making it clear that he wanted players who would work hard in training and on the pitch and if they didn't then bye-bye - no matter how talented they were. I've even suspected that he didn't want a player around who slacked off in training even if that same player was performing well in matches - simply because he didn't want exceptionalism in the squad.
I'll gladly admit that the problem with this kind of inflexibility is that it doesn't always help you get to the next and final level - which is also what failed Rafa although I think his inflexibility was a little different in nature.
[/quote]
Excellant post.
Do you think Fowler fell into this category?
[/quote]
I suspect that he just thought Fowler was past his best, couldn't get rid of him early on because he was too popular with the fans.
After Houllier won the fans over he was able to get rid of Fowler, and to be fair it was a pretty decent bit of business, looking back on it.
Just a theory though
[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=42019.msg1181277#msg1181277 date=1285269569]
Sorry, that sentence does sort of jump out a bit.
I suppose what I mean is that unlike Evans, who I liked a lot but I felt was quite indulgent of players and especially talented players, Houllier seemed to introduce a bit more of a team and/or work ethic.
I have always thought of Houllier coming in and making it clear that he wanted players who would work hard in training and on the pitch and if they didn't then bye-bye - no matter how talented they were. I've even suspected that he didn't want a player around who slacked off in training even if that same player was performing well in matches - simply because he didn't want exceptionalism in the squad.
I'll gladly admit that the problem with this kind of inflexibility is that it doesn't always help you get to the next and final level - which is also what failed Rafa although I think his inflexibility was a little different in nature.
[/quote]
Excellant post.
Do you think Fowler fell into this category?
[/quote]
I suspect that he just thought Fowler was past his best, couldn't get rid of him early on because he was too popular with the fans.
After Houllier won the fans over he was able to get rid of Fowler, and to be fair it was a pretty decent bit of business, looking back on it.
Just a theory though
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=42019.msg1181468#msg1181468 date=1285321489]
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=42019.msg1181047#msg1181047 date=1285245942]
Disgraceful? He was past his best by miles, hardly ever fit, got knackered after about 60 minutes, and often appeared like he couldn't be arsed to run. He could only play in one position, required the whole team to be built around him, and wasn't a great trainer either, especially if there was an international approaching.
Litmanen's Liverpool career was a waste of time and to blame GH for it soley is a travesty
[/quote]
He bought him and didn't know how to play him, like he did with Smicer, he had a problem accommodating players in the 'hole' position because he was fond of a big centre forward a bit too much.
[/quote]
It's probably no coincidence that Jari and Smicer looked a good combo when they got the chance.
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=42019.msg1181047#msg1181047 date=1285245942]
Disgraceful? He was past his best by miles, hardly ever fit, got knackered after about 60 minutes, and often appeared like he couldn't be arsed to run. He could only play in one position, required the whole team to be built around him, and wasn't a great trainer either, especially if there was an international approaching.
Litmanen's Liverpool career was a waste of time and to blame GH for it soley is a travesty
[/quote]
He bought him and didn't know how to play him, like he did with Smicer, he had a problem accommodating players in the 'hole' position because he was fond of a big centre forward a bit too much.
[/quote]
It's probably no coincidence that Jari and Smicer looked a good combo when they got the chance.
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=42019.msg1181274#msg1181274 date=1285268964]
I was one of those who did complain about Jari being let go. My recollection is that a number of others also did, although in fairness there were a number who supported the decision too.
On the subject of Anelka, I strongly disagree. He was integral to the line-up which did so well in those six months and Thommo, Sammy Lee and Stevie G all said at the time or since that he'd been excellent. The fact that we got Spit the Dog instead added insult to injury, but the decision to let Anelka go was a poor one either way.
[/quote]
We have had this argument before Jules and I doubt either of us will convince the other but my view of it is that, although Anelka was okay for us, the mistake in not signing him had been magnified over time by what has happened for both himself and for us.
Had we either signed someone else other than Diouf, or (and I know this may be stretching what is possible to imagine a bit too far) Diouf had actually been really good then signing Anelka wouldn't seem like such a hot idea would it? He eventually sulked his way through Manchester, Turkey and Bolton before going to Chelsea, where he know seems a lot less of a cunt admittedly.
Whatever he said at the time, and whatever anyone says about when he was with us, doesn't necessarily mean a great deal. He was happy at every club he went to at first, just as he always became a bit of a cunt by the end when things stopped going his way.
I was one of those who did complain about Jari being let go. My recollection is that a number of others also did, although in fairness there were a number who supported the decision too.
On the subject of Anelka, I strongly disagree. He was integral to the line-up which did so well in those six months and Thommo, Sammy Lee and Stevie G all said at the time or since that he'd been excellent. The fact that we got Spit the Dog instead added insult to injury, but the decision to let Anelka go was a poor one either way.
[/quote]
We have had this argument before Jules and I doubt either of us will convince the other but my view of it is that, although Anelka was okay for us, the mistake in not signing him had been magnified over time by what has happened for both himself and for us.
Had we either signed someone else other than Diouf, or (and I know this may be stretching what is possible to imagine a bit too far) Diouf had actually been really good then signing Anelka wouldn't seem like such a hot idea would it? He eventually sulked his way through Manchester, Turkey and Bolton before going to Chelsea, where he know seems a lot less of a cunt admittedly.
Whatever he said at the time, and whatever anyone says about when he was with us, doesn't necessarily mean a great deal. He was happy at every club he went to at first, just as he always became a bit of a cunt by the end when things stopped going his way.
S
Squiggles
Guest
Anelka's time here is often looked back upon a bit to fondly, but it's clear he was a gifted goal-scorer who would have improved without question.
It's also worth noting that Benitez could have plucked him from Bolton any time he wished, but didn't.
It's also worth noting that Benitez could have plucked him from Bolton any time he wished, but didn't.
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