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Let's talk about Spurs

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rurikbird

rurikbird

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Even if they don't win the title, you have to tip your cap to them and say they've had a brilliant season and were the only team to push Chelsea all the way. I only saw the highlights of the North London derby, but even there the difference in confidence and teamwork was staggering. They are peaking at the right time and overall convey an impression of a club firmly on the upward trajectory. With that said, in most games I've seen them this season I don't get a feeling they are all that special. We've beaten them comfortably at Anfield and mostly outplayed them at WHL too. They seem to win by virtue of consistency rather than an abundance of any special quality. Their tactics are the most conventional among the top 6, just a regular old 4-2-3-1 in most games (with an obligatory short flirtation with 3 at the back). Spurs fans will probably disagree, but I think at various stretches of the season Man City, us and obviously Chelsea have played better football than anything Spurs have produced (maybe with the exception of the last game, where they did run riot against Arsenal).

I also don't think Pochettino is "all that" – to me his coaching style seems pretty similar to Ronald Koeman's, who did just about as well as Pochettino at Southampton and is now successfully transforming Everton into "Spurs lite". Of course I'm well aware that one doesn't have to be a great tactical innovator to win at football – but let's not forget that Pochettino 1) hasn't won anything yet, and 2) hasn't had to deal with any real pressure or expectations; just because the media is fawning all over him at the moment doesn't mean we should lose all sense of perspective. For my money, Daniel Levy has to take a much bigger share of the credit for Tottenham's gradual rise – Pochettino is just one of the steps of a long-term plan and the real key to their success has been their truly excellent player recruitment strategy.

So what has been the secret of Spurs' consistency this season? In my opinion it's the strong back of the spine of the team: Lloris--Alderweireld--Vertonghen. Watching football this year has really underscored the importance of the centre-backs in particular for me and I started looking at everything from this perspective. Whenever I looked, I saw more examples of why consistency and quality in this area strongly correlates with success. The two EPL teams who are way ahead of the pack all have consistent and quality "back spine" – the less successful 4 of the "big 6" generally do not. Atletico in Spain and Juve in Italy have done extraordinarily well in Europe on a basis of a strong defensive unit, whereas Bayern, for all their heavy investment in this area, can't buy themselves a pair of good central defenders who wouldn't break down by the time Spring and CL play-offs come around, where they are always getting eliminated. Arsenal had their best couple of seasons recently when Koscielny and Mertesacker formed a strong pairing – after they got broken up, the wheels started coming off (and now whenever Koscielny leaves the field for any reason, they just get torn to pieces). Man City tailed off the top level to relative mediocrity just as Kompany started having his injury issues – despite possessing absolutely top-notch quality in all other areas. Etc, etc, etc.

Going back to Spurs, having good quality and long-term understanding at CB and GK allows them not to compromise other areas of the team to make up for lack of quality in that area. We always have these debates that go nowhere around LFC about who to blame for our general defensive shitness – it's the GK who makes everyone nervous! It's the centre-backs who are not good enough! It's the lack of "protection from midfield"! Of course is a bit of all of the above, but I would argue that if you have a really good pair of CBs you actually don't have to employ a "defensive specialist" midfielder to babysit them at all times – you can use one or not depending on your style of play, but it becomes an option rather than a dire necessity. Spurs have been playing a balanced rather than overtly defensive style of football, and yet they only conceded 22 goals in 34 games so far this season – 8 of those in the short stretch of games when Alderweireld was injured. One thing that I will credit Pochettino with is that he showed a lot of restraint whenever the balance was a little off (say, when Kane got injured) – rather than changing things around in search of a new balance he was content to wait for a few games until things snap back into place, trusting his original plan.

Sorry for rambling on a little bit – anyone has any thoughts on Spurs? 🙂
 
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They are annoyingly good.

Hopefully playing at Wembley next season will see them struggle a bit.
 
Somehow Spurs is a team that suit us. We have scored 3 of the 22 goals they let in so far and I think we have looked very comfortable playing against them. Credit to what they have achieved in progress, but I think if we have this and next summer to strengthen and build squad we will surpass them.
 
Unlike us they have a solid defence, solid spine to their team, employ a proper DM and stay very compact when they don't have the ball. All the things we don't have or do.

Sent from my SM-G935F using SixCrazyMinutes mobile app
 
Insignificance said:
Somehow Spurs is a team that suit us. We have scored 3 of the 22 goals they let in so far and I think we have looked very comfortable playing against them. Credit to what they have achieved in progress, but I think if we have this and next summer to strengthen and build squad we will surpass them.
Click to expand...

What has how 'comfortable' we look playing against them got to do with 'surpassing' them?

We only play each other twice in the league, it's what we do against other teams that matter, rather than one that 'suits us'
 
I don't think anyone's disputing that though. A Spurs fan said to me recently that he thought we'd really let ourselves down this season, basing this on the times we've played them when, as he said, no other team had made them look so ordinary. I think Insig's point is that, if we add the right players to a squad which can already outclass a team as good as Tottenham currently are, he'd expect those new players to take us ahead of them. I'd agree in theory, but we all know that's going to be easier said than done.
 
Good post Rurik. Agree with all of that.

Will be interesting to see them next season.
Expectations will be higher and they're playing their home games at Wembely.
I have a feeling that the first moments of struggle for Poch and the team will happen then.
 
rurikbird said:
Going back to Spurs, having good quality and long-term understanding at CB and GK allows them not to compromise other areas of the team to make up for lack of balance in that area. We always have these debates that go nowhere around LFC about who to blame for our general defensive shitness – it's the GK who makes everyone nervous! It's the centre-backs who are not good enough! It's the lack of "protection from midfield"! Of course is a bit of all of the above, but I would argue that if you have a really good pair of CBs you actually don't have to employ a "defensive specialist" midfielder to babysit them at all times – you can use one or not depending on your style of play, but it becomes an option rather than a dire necessity.
Click to expand...
I would disagree with this to a degree. Spurs always have at least one and often more than one from Wanyama, Dembele and Dier in midfield. Two undeniable defence minded midfielders and another that is also more than useful in that regard. So there is your midfield protection for the defence and even with attack-minded full backs it rarely leaves them exposed.

As you say Spurs have played extremely well as a team, without out and out stars per se (though a couple are getting there). Very similar to ourselves in that regard. It may be that Hazard and Kante have been the difference to Spurs this season and the reason Chelsea are going to win the title. Pochettino has done an excellent job regardless of the groundwork laid for him.
 
Can't agree at all.

I've got a few Spurs fans mates so I've seen a fair few of their games.

They have played some breathtaking stuff this season and unlike us can control the tempo of a game.

I actually think they have one of the best coaches in the world and I'm happy he didn't go to Utd.

I read an in depth review of him last year and it was a fascinating read. He possesses every quality I would want in a modern manager.

I just hope to God big clubs strip them of their star quality this summer.

As for CB being crucial, that's a long well known truth, strikers win you games defense wins you titles as Chelsea have shown.

I don't want to see another super power emerge but I can't say I've been nothing but super impressed with Spurs team, their star players, their style and their coach.

Shit fans though
 
Frogfish said:
I would disagree with this to a degree. Spurs always have at least one and often more than one from Wanyama, Dembele and Dier in midfield. Two undeniable defence minded midfielders and another that is also more than useful in that regard. So there is your midfield protection for the defence and even with attack-minded full backs it rarely leaves them exposed.

As you say Spurs have played extremely well as a team, without out and out stars per se (though a couple are getting there). Very similar to ourselves in that regard. It may be that Hazard and Kante have been the difference to Spurs this season and the reason Chelsea are going to win the title. Pochettino has done an excellent job regardless of the groundwork laid for him.
Click to expand...
This is a very important factor in their success I would say as well. Wanyama and Dembele in particular are not only physical masterpieces but also very apt in most other aspect of the game and they really do an amazing job to help out the defensive line. Also, Dembele on his day is neigh on impossible to disposes of the ball, I actually don't think there's a single player out there that's better in that regard. His balance, his strength and agility combined with great technique makes him a powerhouse with the ball glued to his feet.
 
Dreambeliever said:
Can't agree at all.

I've got a few Spurs fans mates so I've seen a fair few of their games.

They have played some breathtaking stuff this season and unlike us can control the tempo of a game.

I actually think they have one of the best coaches in the world and I'm happy he didn't go to Utd.

I read an in depth review of him last year and it was a fascinating read. He possesses every quality I would want in a modern manager.

I just hope to God big clubs strip them of their star quality this summer.

As for CB being crucial, that's a long well known truth, strikers win you games defense wins you titles as Chelsea have shown.

I don't want to see another super power emerge but I can't say I've been nothing but super impressed with Spurs team, their star players, their style and their coach.

Shit fans though
Click to expand...
I pretty much agree with this - for my own set of reasons I've watched Spurs almost as much as ourselves this season. They are highly entertaining to watch and have played some very attractive football at times and also against teams that park the bus. And that is where the real difference between them and us is right now as I see it. (Has to be said though that they were right awful in Europe however for the most part and their squad does seem a bit narrow especially in attack).

They've simply got the players and the right set of tactics to break down opponents, even the most stubborn of them. If it's not the midfielders, then it's the wing backs or the wingers or the striker/s themselves that makes it happen. We are often to reliant on one or two players to deliver the magic when we don't have much space and that is easier to defend against.

Personally I think it's a bit too early to say whether Poch is a top manager or just a good one, but fact is he's really balanced their team out and seems to get the most out of their key players, which is a good start at least for anyone.
 
rurikbird said:
Even if they don't win the title, you have to tip your cap to them and say they've had a brilliant season and were the only team to push Chelsea all the way. I only saw the highlights of the North London derby, but even there the difference in confidence and teamwork was staggering. They are peaking at the right time and overall convey an impression of a club firmly on the upward trajectory. With that said, in most games I've seen them this season I don't get a feeling they are all that special. We've beaten them comfortably at Anfield and mostly outplayed them at WHL too. They seem to win by virtue of consistency rather than an abundance of any special quality. Their tactics are the most conventional among the top 6, just a regular old 4-2-3-1 in most games (with an obligatory short flirtation with 3 at the back). Spurs fans will probably disagree, but I think at various stretches of the season Man City, us and obviously Chelsea have played better football than anything Spurs have produced (maybe with the exception of the last game, where they did run riot against Arsenal).

I also don't think Pochettino is "all that" – to me his coaching style seems pretty similar to Ronald Koeman's, who did just about as well as Pochettino at Southampton and is now successfully transforming Everton into "Spurs lite". Of course I'm well aware that one doesn't have to be a great tactical innovator to win at football – but let's not forget that Pochettino 1) hasn't won anything yet, and 2) hasn't had to deal with any real pressure or expectations; just because the media is fawning all over him at the moment doesn't mean we should lose all sense of perspective. For my money, Daniel Levy has to take a much bigger share of the credit for Tottenham's gradual rise – Pochettino is just one of the steps of a long-term plan and the real key to their success has been their truly excellent player recruitment strategy.

So what has been the secret of Spurs' consistency this season? In my opinion it's the strong back of the spine of the team: Lloris--Alderweireld--Vertonghen. Watching football this year has really underscored the importance of the centre-backs in particular for me and I started looking at everything from this perspective. Whenever I looked, I saw more examples of why consistency and quality in this area strongly correlates with success. The two EPL teams who are way ahead of the pack all have consistent and quality "back spine" – the less successful 4 of the "big 6" generally do not. Atletico in Spain and Juve in Italy have done extraordinarily well in Europe on a basis of a strong defensive unit, whereas Bayern, for all their heavy investment in this area, can't buy themselves a pair of good central defenders who wouldn't break down by the time Spring and CL play-offs come around, where they are always getting eliminated. Arsenal had their best couple of seasons recently when Koscielny and Mertesacker formed a strong pairing – after they got broken up, the wheels started coming off (and now whenever Koscielny leaves the field for any reason, they just get torn to pieces). Man City tailed off the top level to relative mediocrity just as Kompany started having his injury issues – despite possessing absolutely top-notch quality in all other areas. Etc, etc, etc.

Going back to Spurs, having good quality and long-term understanding at CB and GK allows them not to compromise other areas of the team to make up for lack of balance in that area. We always have these debates that go nowhere around LFC about who to blame for our general defensive shitness – it's the GK who makes everyone nervous! It's the centre-backs who are not good enough! It's the lack of "protection from midfield"! Of course is a bit of all of the above, but I would argue that if you have a really good pair of CBs you actually don't have to employ a "defensive specialist" midfielder to babysit them at all times – you can use one or not depending on your style of play, but it becomes an option rather than a dire necessity. Spurs have been playing a balanced rather than overtly defensive style of football, and yet they only conceded 22 goals in 34 games so far this season – 8 of those in the short stretch of games when Alderweireld was injured. One thing that I will credit Pochettino with is that he showed a lot of restraint whenever the balance was a little off (say, when Kane got injured) – rather than changing things around in search of a new balance he was content to wait for a few games until things snap back into place, trusting his original plan.

Sorry for rambling on a little bit – anyone has any thoughts on Spurs? 🙂
Click to expand...
I think it's an interesting post and it does raise some valid points but I do believe you are vastly overlooking the fact that their attack is as good as anyone's really.

They've not only scored the most goals of everyone in the league, their offensive key players have each tallied about 30 goals/assist combined (Kane, Eriksen, Alli and Son) in all competitions.

So yeah they got a good defense, covered well by some top drawer defensive midfielders, but their main quality as I see it is in attack:



 
Kay Age El said:
This is a very important factor in their success I would say as well. Wanyama and Dembele in particular are not only physical masterpieces but also very apt in most other aspect of the game and they really do an amazing job to help out the defensive line. Also, Dembele on his day is neigh on impossible to disposes of the ball, I actually don't think there's a single player out there that's better in that regard. His balance, his strength and agility combined with great technique makes him a powerhouse with the ball glued to his feet.
Click to expand...

And he's also a fucking dirty cunt of a player though ... and rarely gets attention for it either.

But yes, brilliant player (you wonder why his resume is Fulham and Spurs though - he should have made it at a bigger club).
 
Well, here's a more proper response than my earlier flippant remark.

Here's one thing that's not been mentioned or questioned about Spurs. If they are so fucking cool and good, why did Leicester win the title last season?

Can anyone deny the likes of City, United and Chelsea spontaneously and simultaneously self-combusting as a factor in allowing Spurs to place a superb and exhilarating THIRD place in a season of woe for the big clubs? This season they've improved and bar some weird hundred-year Spurs event, will place second (even I can't see Spurs Spursing by losing 4 in a row and City/us capitalizing with 4 wins in a row), again, with the likes of City and United still convalescing from management and team surgery.

In other words, I'm almost certain this is as good as it gets for them. This might come back and bite me, and turn into someone's signature quote, but I'm not sure I'm wrong. Look, I agree that Spurs have quality from back to front in the squad. No doubt about that. But there's something not right with the club if, with that quality, they can't capitalize on golden opportunities like last season and this season. Okay, I admit they're doing better this season in pushing Chelsea harder, but they still left themselves a big gap to close up for too long.

Remember when back in 13/14, we finished second? We sweated bullets and had to keep pushing hard every game because City and Chelsea were in it all the way until the last 3 games or so. And Arsenal were still 2nd with 11 games to go back then too. That was a season when only United (under Moyes) was asleep at the wheel. Would this Spurs team stand up or wilt under that sort of glare?

We can expect City and United to aggressively rebuild in the next 2 to 3 transfer windows, maybe 4 tops. Barring any weird shitstorms like Mourinho choking on his own tears and whines, Guardiola and Mourinho should be staying at their clubs for at least a couple more seasons to see through their massive shopping sprees, and that will give them the managerial stability they need. Chelsea have already recovered from their bad season.

So, I think these 2 next seasons will be the window for Spurs to pull anything off. But they failed last season when things were easy. They're failing this season when things are a bit harder. Are they going to fail again in the next 2 seasons? If not... why not? They've passed up easier chances.

Spurs are Arsenal White (but at least Wenger did win the title).

And the obligatory Fuck Spurs.
 
LeTallecWiz said:
And he's also a fucking dirty cunt of a player though ... and rarely gets attention for it either.

But yes, brilliant player (you wonder why his resume is Fulham and Spurs though - he should have made it at a bigger club).
Click to expand...
Is he? I don't think he's too bad to be honest. Well, nothing like Alli or Vertongen or Walker anyways. He does get kicked a lot and he do give back but not in a dirty way I would've thought.

Anyway I really hope we soon get a player of his (or Wanyama's qualities) ourselves and I wouldn't mind one bit if he also gave anyone who kicked him a hard time, we could do with some 'fair' nastiness in the team.
 
I rate them a lot. They have a very balanced squad which hasn't been assembled at huge expense. They've made smart signings, developed youth into world-class players and achieve consistently good performances in the league. I don't think we're miles off them, but I also don't think this is the maximum potential of that Spurs side. It's still young and will improve further to the point where I think they can have a realistic go at the title next year providing Levy can hold it all together. As Rurik said, he's the real mastermind behind turning Spurs from middle of the season shite to title contenders. I don't hate them. Their manager is a decent guy and for me their progress is what football should be about, rather than oil billionaires throwing their cocks about over the latest £50M starlet.

However, when I see Dele Ali do that embarrassing celebration I'd gladly drop a nuclear bomb on the place. The smug shite.
 
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choperman.v01 said:
Well, here's a more proper response than my earlier flippant remark.

Here's one thing that's not been mentioned or questioned about Spurs. If they are so fucking cool and good, why did Leicester win the title last season?

Can anyone deny the likes of City, United and Chelsea spontaneously and simultaneously self-combusting as a factor in allowing Spurs to place a superb and exhilarating THIRD place in a season of woe for the big clubs? This season they've improved and bar some weird hundred-year Spurs event, will place second (even I can't see Spurs Spursing by losing 4 in a row and City/us capitalizing with 4 wins in a row), again, with the likes of City and United still convalescing from management and team surgery.

In other words, I'm almost certain this is as good as it gets for them. This might come back and bite me, and turn into someone's signature quote, but I'm not sure I'm wrong. Look, I agree that Spurs have quality from back to front in the squad. No doubt about that. But there's something not right with the club if, with that quality, they can't capitalize on golden opportunities like last season and this season. Okay, I admit they're doing better this season in pushing Chelsea harder, but they still left themselves a big gap to close up for too long.

Remember when back in 13/14, we finished second? We sweated bullets and had to keep pushing hard every game because City and Chelsea were in it all the way until the last 3 games or so. And Arsenal were still 2nd with 11 games to go back then too. That was a season when only United (under Moyes) was asleep at the wheel. Would this Spurs team stand up or wilt under that sort of glare?

We can expect City and United to aggressively rebuild in the next 2 to 3 transfer windows, maybe 4 tops. Barring any weird shitstorms like Mourinho choking on his own tears and whines, Guardiola and Mourinho should be staying at their clubs for at least a couple more seasons to see through their massive shopping sprees, and that will give them the managerial stability they need. Chelsea have already recovered from their bad season.

So, I think these 2 next seasons will be the window for Spurs to pull anything off. But they failed last season when things were easy. They're failing this season when things are a bit harder. Are they going to fail again in the next 2 seasons? If not... why not? They've passed up easier chances.

Spurs are Arsenal White (but at least Wenger did win the title).

And the obligatory Fuck Spurs.
Click to expand...
I guess it all comes down to whether they can keep their core intact.

If they can I fear they will become a real force to be reckoned with for Seasons to come. Kane is 23, Alli 21, Son 24, Dier 23, Eriksen & Wanyama 25, Winks 21, Walker, Trippier & Rose 26, both CD's and goalie are entering their prime years around 30.
 
I largely agree with the original post though I think it does a bit of a disservice to Pochettino. It's not easy to get a team performing consistently well over the course of a couple seasons.

I don't think comparisons to Spurs teams of years gone by really apply anymore. They are a different beast right now. They may not be winning titles or getting to the final stages of European competitions (fair criticisms) but then neither have they spent the same gargantuan amounts of money that their rivals have - it's been a case of slowly slowly for them.

The real test comes in the summer. That's where it will get interesting for them. They've achieved what they set out to do - they're established. The question is now whether they'll hold onto their manager, key players and make that next step in terms of signings. The risk is always that they'll fall back into the chasing pack.
 
Kay Age El said:
I think it's an interesting post and it does raise some valid points but I do believe you are vastly overlooking the fact that their attack is as good as anyone's really.

They've not only scored the most goals of everyone in the league, their offensive key players have each tallied about 30 goals/assist combined (Kane, Eriksen, Alli and Son) in all competitions.

So yeah they got a good defense, covered well by some top drawer defensive midfielders, but their main quality as I see it is in attack:



Click to expand...


Am I right in saying the financial outlay for Eriksen, Ali and Kane was less than £20M? Value for money wise it has to be one of the best attacks the league has seen.

We added £15M and signed a greasy, pisshead Donkey.
 
Pochettino is one of the best coaches in the World? As if. Promising, yes. But until they actually win something then not a chance.

They also got their fair share of average players, but the balance in that team is so good. Thats the crux of it all I guess.
 
Kay Age El said:
Is he? I don't think he's too bad to be honest. Well, nothing like Alli or Vertongen or Walker anyways. He does get kicked a lot and he do give back but not in a dirty way I would've thought.

Anyway I really hope we soon get a player of his (or Wanyama's qualities) ourselves and I wouldn't mind one bit if he also gave anyone who kicked him a hard time, we could do with some 'fair' nastiness in the team.
Click to expand...

Never saw Walker as dirty ... Alli is a hot head but that's not how he normally plays, he just lashes out every few months.
Vertongen - yah he has a nasty streak in him ... but is portrayed as a clean player.
Nah Dembele is a cunt. Just watch him more closely ... he's a really good player, but he's still a cunt.

@rurikbird - did Klopp ever have 'tough as nails' midfielders like a wanyama or dembele @ dortmund?
 
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