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It's Official - We are now an Attacking team - Rafa

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would you really feel any better if we'd won the league cup last year?

or if we'd got knocked out of the CL early and gone on to win the uefa cup?


seriously?
 
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=36136.msg953462#msg953462 date=1254223985]
would you really feel any better if we'd won the league cup last year?

or if we'd got knocked out of the CL early and gone on to win the uefa cup?


seriously?
[/quote]

I don't know if I'd be happier but when you look back at liverpool's acheivements in 10 years time a cup winning year (regardless of the size) will read better than a semi-final year (regardless of the size).
 
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=36136.msg953451#msg953451 date=1254223070]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=36136.msg953449#msg953449 date=1254222640]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=36136.msg953448#msg953448 date=1254222481]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=36136.msg953440#msg953440 date=1254222111]
it annoys the hell out of me when people have a go at gh. any successful manager has to do the following

a) make your team hard to beat
b) win trophies

gh did both of those things, all right it turned sour in the end but gh did more good than bad whilst he was at anfield.
[/quote]


surely any successful manager just has to (b)?
[/quote]

no manager will achieve 'b' without first tackling 'a' that's why leeds and n'castle ended up winning fuck all whilst liverpool won a treble.
[/quote]


oh yeah, the Mickey Mouse Treble. good times.
[/quote]

They were for me and Im sure plenty of others
 
[quote author=Niall K link=topic=36136.msg953464#msg953464 date=1254224206]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=36136.msg953451#msg953451 date=1254223070]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=36136.msg953449#msg953449 date=1254222640]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=36136.msg953448#msg953448 date=1254222481]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=36136.msg953440#msg953440 date=1254222111]
it annoys the hell out of me when people have a go at gh. any successful manager has to do the following

a) make your team hard to beat
b) win trophies

gh did both of those things, all right it turned sour in the end but gh did more good than bad whilst he was at anfield.
[/quote]


surely any successful manager just has to (b)?
[/quote]

no manager will achieve 'b' without first tackling 'a' that's why leeds and n'castle ended up winning fuck all whilst liverpool won a treble.
[/quote]


oh yeah, the Mickey Mouse Treble. good times.
[/quote]

They were for me and Im sure plenty of others
[/quote]

they certainly were for me.
I think gh's problem is he let the 'dire football' comments get to him and tried to expend the style of play but didn't have the players to pull it off. the truth of the matter is when you are winning things, who. gives. a. fuck?
I certainly don't.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=36136.msg953463#msg953463 date=1254224171]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=36136.msg953462#msg953462 date=1254223985]
would you really feel any better if we'd won the league cup last year?

or if we'd got knocked out of the CL early and gone on to win the uefa cup?


seriously?
[/quote]

I don't know if I'd be happier but when you look back at liverpool's acheivements in 10 years time a cup winning year (regardless of the size) will read better than a semi-final year (regardless of the size).
[/quote]


is that what following a team's about for you then? how things will look in record books nobody but football geeks look at?
 
[quote author=Niall K link=topic=36136.msg953464#msg953464 date=1254224206]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=36136.msg953451#msg953451 date=1254223070]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=36136.msg953449#msg953449 date=1254222640]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=36136.msg953448#msg953448 date=1254222481]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=36136.msg953440#msg953440 date=1254222111]
it annoys the hell out of me when people have a go at gh. any successful manager has to do the following

a) make your team hard to beat
b) win trophies

gh did both of those things, all right it turned sour in the end but gh did more good than bad whilst he was at anfield.
[/quote]


surely any successful manager just has to (b)?
[/quote]

no manager will achieve 'b' without first tackling 'a' that's why leeds and n'castle ended up winning fuck all whilst liverpool won a treble.
[/quote]


oh yeah, the Mickey Mouse Treble. good times.
[/quote]

They were for me and Im sure plenty of others
[/quote]


oh i know, i was mostly just trying to wind neil up. but i'm sure i'll look back on last season more fondly than on the treble year.
 
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=36136.msg953462#msg953462 date=1254223985]
would you really feel any better if we'd won the league cup last year?
[/quote]

Yes, I would.

I enjoy the domestic cups, which despite being marginalized by European competitions in recent years are still an important part of football in this country.

I don't blame the supporters of other clubs who have zero chance of winning the league or the CL for looking upon this sort of attitude as cuntish elitism.

If Liverpool lost it's way and the only realistic chance of tasting some success was in the League or FA Cup, would you still turn your nose up at it? Or would you just stop watching football?
 
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=36136.msg953470#msg953470 date=1254224538]
[quote author=Niall K link=topic=36136.msg953464#msg953464 date=1254224206]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=36136.msg953451#msg953451 date=1254223070]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=36136.msg953449#msg953449 date=1254222640]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=36136.msg953448#msg953448 date=1254222481]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=36136.msg953440#msg953440 date=1254222111]
it annoys the hell out of me when people have a go at gh. any successful manager has to do the following

a) make your team hard to beat
b) win trophies

gh did both of those things, all right it turned sour in the end but gh did more good than bad whilst he was at anfield.
[/quote]


surely any successful manager just has to (b)?
[/quote]

no manager will achieve 'b' without first tackling 'a' that's why leeds and n'castle ended up winning fuck all whilst liverpool won a treble.
[/quote]


oh yeah, the Mickey Mouse Treble. good times.
[/quote]

They were for me and Im sure plenty of others
[/quote]


oh i know, i was mostly just trying to wind neil up. but i'm sure i'll look back on last season more fondly than on the treble year.
[/quote]

I dont really understand how you can look back more fondly on getting pipped for the title by your biggest rivals as opposed to watching your club play in and win three cup finals.
 
[quote author=keniget link=topic=36136.msg953471#msg953471 date=1254224572]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=36136.msg953462#msg953462 date=1254223985]
would you really feel any better if we'd won the league cup last year?
[/quote]

Yes, I would.

I enjoy the domestic cups, which despite being marginalized by European competitions in recent years are still an important part of football in this country.

I don't blame the supporters of other clubs who have zero chance of winning the league or the CL for looking upon this sort of attitude as cuntish elitism.

If Liverpool lost it's way and the only realistic chance of tasting some success was in the League or FA Cup, would you still turn your nose up at it? Or would you just stop watching football?


[/quote]


what the hell are you talking about? all success is relative to expectations, that's blindingly obvious.


my expectations of our success are greater than the league cup and uefa cup and therefore i won't be dying of joy next time we win either, unless of course my expectations of our success have dropped sufficiently.
 
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=36136.msg953478#msg953478 date=1254224922]
what the hell are you talking about? all success is relative to expectations, that's blindingly obvious.

my expectations of our success are greater than the league cup and uefa cup and therefore i won't be dying of joy next time we win either, unless of course my expectations of our success have dropped sufficiently.
[/quote]

Did you bother watching the FA Cup final in 2006?

Or was it below your expectations considering we'd won the CL the year before?
 
[quote author=Niall K link=topic=36136.msg953476#msg953476 date=1254224867]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=36136.msg953470#msg953470 date=1254224538]
[quote author=Niall K link=topic=36136.msg953464#msg953464 date=1254224206]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=36136.msg953451#msg953451 date=1254223070]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=36136.msg953449#msg953449 date=1254222640]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=36136.msg953448#msg953448 date=1254222481]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=36136.msg953440#msg953440 date=1254222111]
it annoys the hell out of me when people have a go at gh. any successful manager has to do the following

a) make your team hard to beat
b) win trophies

gh did both of those things, all right it turned sour in the end but gh did more good than bad whilst he was at anfield.
[/quote]


surely any successful manager just has to (b)?
[/quote]

no manager will achieve 'b' without first tackling 'a' that's why leeds and n'castle ended up winning fuck all whilst liverpool won a treble.
[/quote]


oh yeah, the Mickey Mouse Treble. good times.
[/quote]

They were for me and Im sure plenty of others
[/quote]


oh i know, i was mostly just trying to wind neil up. but i'm sure i'll look back on last season more fondly than on the treble year.
[/quote]

I dont really understand how you can look back more fondly on getting pipped for the title by your biggest rivals as opposed to watching your club play in and win three cup finals.
[/quote]


because, analysed properly, it was a Good News story. it was a glorious and promising failure, i hope which one day will be looked on in a similar way to man utd's heartbreaking failure to win the 92 league championship. i bet most utd fans have a fond memory of that season now, becasue the lessons learned paved the way for what came afterwards.
 
[quote author=keniget link=topic=36136.msg953482#msg953482 date=1254225161]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=36136.msg953478#msg953478 date=1254224922]
what the hell are you talking about? all success is relative to expectations, that's blindingly obvious.

my expectations of our success are greater than the league cup and uefa cup and therefore i won't be dying of joy next time we win either, unless of course my expectations of our success have dropped sufficiently.
[/quote]

Did you bother watching the FA Cup final in 2006?

Or was it below your expectations considering we'd won the CL the year before?
[/quote]


you'll notice i never mentioned the FA cup. that's borderline, but right now i think still worth winning.


i know there are others on here who couldn't care less about the FA Cup, though.
 
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=36136.msg953483#msg953483 date=1254225189]
[quote author=Niall K link=topic=36136.msg953476#msg953476 date=1254224867]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=36136.msg953470#msg953470 date=1254224538]
[quote author=Niall K link=topic=36136.msg953464#msg953464 date=1254224206]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=36136.msg953451#msg953451 date=1254223070]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=36136.msg953449#msg953449 date=1254222640]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=36136.msg953448#msg953448 date=1254222481]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=36136.msg953440#msg953440 date=1254222111]
it annoys the hell out of me when people have a go at gh. any successful manager has to do the following

a) make your team hard to beat
b) win trophies

gh did both of those things, all right it turned sour in the end but gh did more good than bad whilst he was at anfield.
[/quote]


surely any successful manager just has to (b)?
[/quote]

no manager will achieve 'b' without first tackling 'a' that's why leeds and n'castle ended up winning fuck all whilst liverpool won a treble.
[/quote]


oh yeah, the Mickey Mouse Treble. good times.
[/quote]

They were for me and Im sure plenty of others
[/quote]


oh i know, i was mostly just trying to wind neil up. but i'm sure i'll look back on last season more fondly than on the treble year.
[/quote]

I dont really understand how you can look back more fondly on getting pipped for the title by your biggest rivals as opposed to watching your club play in and win three cup finals.
[/quote]


because, analysed properly, it was a Good News story. it was a glorious and promising failure, i hope which one day will be looked on in a similar way to man utd's heartbreaking failure to win the 92 league championship. i bet most utd fans have a fond memory of that season now, becasue the lessons learned paved the way for what came afterwards.
[/quote]

Some fucking failure alright.....Jesus Christ.
 
I wont be a hyprocrite I'm more concerned with the league (even more than the CL) but we get a good run in the league cup and I will be well behind the team. a cup is a cup. I remember running down the street celebrating the league cup win in 2001 because it had been 6 years since the last one.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=36136.msg953488#msg953488 date=1254225409]
I wont be a hyprocrite I'm more concerned with the league (even more than the CL) but we get a good run in the league cup and I will be well behind the team. a cup is a cup. I remember running down the street celebrating the league cup win in 2001 because it had been 6 years since the last one.
[/quote]


i remember pissing myself laughing because i was watching it with a birmingham-supporting friend, what with a league cup win being so far above his expectations of their success and somehwat below my expectations of our success.

it was a hoot.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=36136.msg953488#msg953488 date=1254225409]
I wont be a hyprocrite I'm more concerned with the league (even more than the CL) but we get a good run in the league cup and I will be well behind the team. a cup is a cup. I remember running down the street celebrating the league cup win in 2001 because it had been 6 years since the last one.
[/quote]
But that is exactly the point Peter is trying to make.

Expectations back then were different. We had a mediocre team (mostly) and were struggling to find our feet as a club.

If we won the Carling Cup this year it will evidently not spark celebrations like back then as it's obvious that expectations are now quite different.

I don't mind winning every cup around but there are some outthere (the Supercup's, Charity Shield's and Carling Cup's in example) that I won't loose any sleep over missing out on.

Actually I think it would be the funniest thing if United's only title this Season were the Carling Cup and we went on to win the Premiership. Almost funnier than them winning nothing in some odd way.
 
This article sounds like it's baiting teams to take advantage of our defensive weaknesses, maybe it's his plan to make teams attack us more so we can destroy them easier on the counter attack. After all we're fucking lethal on the counter.
 
I can't see how playing more attacking has influenced what goals we have let in when 90%+ of them are from corners and free kicks


Rafa will play with two non scoring CMs against bigger teams which will give us less goalscoring options again

Unless Aqua fella is more of a goal threat than Alonso was we will have the same problem as last year, struggle to score at home against defensive teams over the season
 
[quote author=Fox link=topic=36136.msg953503#msg953503 date=1254226909]
I can't see how playing more attacking has influenced what goals we have let in when 90%+ of them are from corners and free kicks


Rafa will play with two non scoring CMs against bigger teams which will give us less goalscoring options again

Unless Aqua fella is more of a goal threat than Alonso was we will have the same problem as last year, struggle to score at home against defensive teams over the season


[/quote]

That's almost a good point, the counter to that is the best means of defence is attack and we can only concede set pieces in dangerous areas if we are having to defend in our half

regards
 
Valid points by Vladders..

And regards our turgid display last season against Boro, they've grown less and less frequent under Rafa over the last 18 months or so. Under Ged, with all respect for the many good things he did, we played like that through most of his tenure.
 
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=36136.msg953538#msg953538 date=1254229618]
[quote author=Fox link=topic=36136.msg953503#msg953503 date=1254226909]
I can't see how playing more attacking has influenced what goals we have let in when 90%+ of them are from corners and free kicks


Rafa will play with two non scoring CMs against bigger teams which will give us less goalscoring options again

Unless Aqua fella is more of a goal threat than Alonso was we will have the same problem as last year, struggle to score at home against defensive teams over the season


[/quote]

That's almost a good point, the counter to that is the best means of defence is attack and we can only concede set pieces in dangerous areas if we are having to defend in our half

regards
[/quote]

Not really. I think Vlad & Fox have missed something here. The reason we have conceded more goals from set pieces (9) than open play (0) is that we are now more susceptible to the counter attack since we spend a greater amount of time in the opponent's third of the pitch, which includes having Johnson and Insua in areas where they are unable to defend a break. This leads to more fouls etc. in our half by exposed defenders which may not have been necessary in previous seasons under Rafa.

So do we not commit ourselves as much as we are doing and tighten up defensively ? Or do we continue as we are, content that we can outscore the opposition ? It may well be this that Rafa is working on as much as better organisation when defending set pieces.
 
[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=36136.msg953563#msg953563 date=1254233276]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=36136.msg953538#msg953538 date=1254229618]
[quote author=Fox link=topic=36136.msg953503#msg953503 date=1254226909]
I can't see how playing more attacking has influenced what goals we have let in when 90%+ of them are from corners and free kicks


Rafa will play with two non scoring CMs against bigger teams which will give us less goalscoring options again

Unless Aqua fella is more of a goal threat than Alonso was we will have the same problem as last year, struggle to score at home against defensive teams over the season


[/quote]

That's almost a good point, the counter to that is the best means of defence is attack and we can only concede set pieces in dangerous areas if we are having to defend in our half

regards
[/quote]

Not really. I think Vlad & Fox have missed something here. The reason we have conceded more goals from set pieces (9) than open play (0) is that we are now more susceptible to the counter attack since we spend a greater amount of time in the opponent's third of the pitch, which includes having Johnson and Insua in areas where they are unable to defend a break. This leads to more fouls etc. in our half by exposed defenders which may not have been necessary in previous seasons under Rafa.

So do we not commit ourselves as much as we are doing and tighten up defensively ? Or do we continue as we are, content that we can outscore the opposition ? It may well be this that Rafa is working on as much as better organisation when defending set pieces.
[/quote]

I think it's twofold Froggy, we've always had an Achilles Heal defending balls into the box, particularly from setpieces. The system might work eventually but there are definitely drawn out periods of uncertainty, either though unfamiliarity, lacking genuine aerial threat or a real issue in getting to grips with the style of marking.

Maybe it's being exposed more now due to us attacking more and conceding more fouls, as you say, but it's always been an issue and while Insua and Johnson have proven themselves in terms of transforming our attacking play, I definitely think there's been some sacrifice of our defensive ability.

Arbeloa was a good, underrated defender who knew when to tuck in and create a three in the middle to restrict space, we don't really have that at the minute from our fullbacks.
 
I think Rafa is just trying to spin the pundits complete focus on our defensive frailties, especially as concerns Carragher.

He will be focusing a ton of energy on putting it right, and if history is any guide, I'm sure he will. Perhaps Agger coming back will give things a nice shake up as well and get Skrtl a little less sleepy.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=36136.msg953545#msg953545 date=1254230005]
Valid points by Vladders..

And regards our turgid display last season against Boro, they've grown less and less frequent under Rafa over the last 18 months or so. Under Ged, with all respect for the many good things he did, we played like that through most of his tenure.
[/quote]

I wanted to give up football after that game.
 
[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=36136.msg953563#msg953563 date=1254233276]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=36136.msg953538#msg953538 date=1254229618]
[quote author=Fox link=topic=36136.msg953503#msg953503 date=1254226909]
I can't see how playing more attacking has influenced what goals we have let in when 90%+ of them are from corners and free kicks


Rafa will play with two non scoring CMs against bigger teams which will give us less goalscoring options again

Unless Aqua fella is more of a goal threat than Alonso was we will have the same problem as last year, struggle to score at home against defensive teams over the season


[/quote]

That's almost a good point, the counter to that is the best means of defence is attack and we can only concede set pieces in dangerous areas if we are having to defend in our half

regards
[/quote]

Not really. I think Vlad & Fox have missed something here. The reason we have conceded more goals from set pieces (9) than open play (0) is that we are now more susceptible to the counter attack since we spend a greater amount of time in the opponent's third of the pitch, which includes having Johnson and Insua in areas where they are unable to defend a break. This leads to more fouls etc. in our half by exposed defenders which may not have been necessary in previous seasons under Rafa.

So do we not commit ourselves as much as we are doing and tighten up defensively ? Or do we continue as we are, content that we can outscore the opposition ? It may well be this that Rafa is working on as much as better organisation when defending set pieces.
[/quote]

do you really think we're conceding more free kicks and corners?
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=36136.msg953440#msg953440 date=1254222111]
it annoys the hell out of me when people have a go at gh. any successful manager has to do the following

a) make your team hard to beat
b) win trophies

gh did both of those things, all right it turned sour in the end but gh did more good than bad whilst he was at anfield.
[/quote]

Ah yes, he really did help us leap forward did Ged. We all wanted more, but without him, it's arguable that we'd be even further down the league...
 
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=36136.msg953483#msg953483 date=1254225189]
[quote author=Niall K link=topic=36136.msg953476#msg953476 date=1254224867]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=36136.msg953470#msg953470 date=1254224538]
[quote author=Niall K link=topic=36136.msg953464#msg953464 date=1254224206]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=36136.msg953451#msg953451 date=1254223070]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=36136.msg953449#msg953449 date=1254222640]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=36136.msg953448#msg953448 date=1254222481]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=36136.msg953440#msg953440 date=1254222111]
it annoys the hell out of me when people have a go at gh. any successful manager has to do the following

a) make your team hard to beat
b) win trophies

gh did both of those things, all right it turned sour in the end but gh did more good than bad whilst he was at anfield.
[/quote]


surely any successful manager just has to (b)?
[/quote]

no manager will achieve 'b' without first tackling 'a' that's why leeds and n'castle ended up winning fuck all whilst liverpool won a treble.
[/quote]


oh yeah, the Mickey Mouse Treble. good times.
[/quote]

They were for me and Im sure plenty of others
[/quote]


oh i know, i was mostly just trying to wind neil up. but i'm sure i'll look back on last season more fondly than on the treble year.
[/quote]

I dont really understand how you can look back more fondly on getting pipped for the title by your biggest rivals as opposed to watching your club play in and win three cup finals.
[/quote]


because, analysed properly, it was a Good News story. it was a glorious and promising failure, i hope which one day will be looked on in a similar way to man utd's heartbreaking failure to win the 92 league championship. i bet most utd fans have a fond memory of that season now, becasue the lessons learned paved the way for what came afterwards.
[/quote]

Peter, you are cracking me up. Very likeable post....you must be pulling the mickey?
 
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