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It's always darkest before the dawn...

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Halmeister

Some sort of pun about having a well known member
Member
Don't be fooled by the thread title, the night isn't over yet and it could very well get darker before sunrise. After another abject, pathetic, gutless display that has become symptomatic and synonymous with - and more depressingly, expected - this season, there doesn't seem to be any positives. None. No signs of improvement. No fight, no character, no skill, no pace, no belief. No clue.

With it extremely unlikely we'll get 4th this season after tonight's result, (arguably for people like myself it was already a lost cause) I feel we could see ourselves hurtling into the abyss. Let's start with the manager. He has no clue about anything anymore it seems. There really doesn't seem to be any indication of tactics employed. There's no idea, no creativity, no plan B (or plan A you could argue). Even this wouldn't be half as catastrophic if he could elicit some sort of response from the players, you know, motivate them, man-MANAGE them. Unfortunately we could very well be lumbered with him for a long time yet. We're in such a state that we can't afford to sack him, in fact it could prove suicidal to do so such is how precarious our financial position is. So we've got to hope someone will take him off our hands. Yet admirers may dwindle if he keeps this sort of form up, as well as the fact his high wages and desire to stay, and perhaps stubbornness, could see him staying put. If that's the case we would be stuck with him for another summer transfer window with players who clearly have lost any desire to play for him, and we would have to trust his ability in the transfer market to strengthen us with whatever pittance we are afforded with to buy new players. Which wouldn't be so bad if he hadn't had such increasingly bad transfer windows in recent times.


Now the players clearly seem to have forgotten how to play, but the fact is it's pretty much every player, with the exception of Mascher and Reina, makes for pretty grim reading. Is it solely down to the manager and his tactics or do they not want to play for him any more? Either way a few of them may be looking to move. We can't afford to this given the fact that if they were sold we probably wouldn't be able to afford to replace them. If a key player like Torres or Gerrard started to question their future with us, and perhaps rightly so, then how could we replace them? Man City reportedly are tabling bids of upwards of £75 million for our star players. I wouldn't be too confident that we'd see that money reinvested into the squad. Nor would I trust Benitez with the cash. A real catch 22 situation.

In the race for 4th it pretty much comes down to Man City, Spurs and Villa. If city get there it could very well prove to be disastrous. An infinite budget to sign new recruits and newly achieved Champions League status could see them strengthening and thus widening the gap into a chasm. Europes best would see them as the place to go to rather than us, not least Man City feeling that they could perhaps poach a few of our players. This would be disastrous. Villa and Spurs however, I don't believe would gain a similar foothold in Europe. Ideally one of these two clubs would get 4th if it wasn't to be us but my money is on City. If this happens it could spark a decline for us as a football club as Manchester City could have leapfrogged us and we would never have the funds to gain our place back.

Now hopefully some billionaire comes along and ploughs his riches into our club, or perhaps even one of you fine posters could cheer me up and give me some positive news about our future. But both seem increasingly unlikely.

At every level of our great club something is rotten. For me, this truly is our season on the brink. And I'm not sure we can survive it.
 
I cant think of more than 3 players i would care about selling to City or any other club mate.
Reina
Mascherano.....

Sorry just two.
 
Ha I was going to ask you to do your work, Oncy, and respond to this thread.

Yep if we lost those two an integral and significant chunk of the spine of the team would be gone. It's a credit to them that they want to stay. I certainly wouldn't blame them if they wanted to leave.

It seems as though I may be right judging by the fact that no one has offered any rays of light and optimism with regards to this thread. I think our club could have it's days numbered as a force in Europe and a brand around the world. And the decline will have happened in pretty much a year.

I hope I can dig this thread up in a year and laugh at how wide of the mark I was, but I can't see it.
 
I dont really buy in to the doomsday scenarios mate, because i know how massive a brand we are. Someone will always be interested in making a success of Liverpool. We are a massive, historical club with a fanbase in the millions all over the world. With a playing squad the envy of 95% of clubs in the world. With planning permission for a 75k stadium in the park.
We're not going to struggle to exist and to compete, and we will see success again. But not under this manager.
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=39218.msg1066181#msg1066181 date=1268094055]
I dont really buy in to the doomsday scenarios mate, because i know how massive a brand we are. Someone will always be interested in making a success of Liverpool. We are a massive, historical club with a fanbase in the millions all over the world. With a playing squad the envy of 95% of clubs in the world. With planning permission for a 75k stadium in the park.
We're not going to struggle to exist and to compete, and we will see success again. But not under this manager.
[/quote]

Or owners. They need to go before Benitez.
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=39218.msg1066181#msg1066181 date=1268094055]
I dont really buy in to the doomsday scenarios mate, because i know how massive a brand we are. Someone will always be interested in making a success of Liverpool. We are a massive, historical club with a fanbase in the millions all over the world. With a playing squad the envy of 95% of clubs in the world. With planning permission for a 75k stadium in the park.
We're not going to struggle to exist and to compete, and we will see success again. But not under this manager.
[/quote]

THAT is what I'm looking for. Fair play. I just can't see it getting better, and certainly not anytime soon. But I suppose you're right.

It's just the fact that if City become successful at our expense we'll see kids around the world wearing City shirts instead of Liverpool ones. Chelsea didn't have much of a global fanbase before 2003. I'd say now they do.
 
[quote author=Halmeister link=topic=39218.msg1066189#msg1066189 date=1268094381]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=39218.msg1066181#msg1066181 date=1268094055]
I dont really buy in to the doomsday scenarios mate, because i know how massive a brand we are. Someone will always be interested in making a success of Liverpool. We are a massive, historical club with a fanbase in the millions all over the world. With a playing squad the envy of 95% of clubs in the world. With planning permission for a 75k stadium in the park.
We're not going to struggle to exist and to compete, and we will see success again. But not under this manager.
[/quote]

THAT is what I'm looking for. Fair play. I just can't see it getting better, and certainly not anytime soon. But I suppose you're right.

It's just the fact that if City become successful at our expense we'll see kids around the world wearing City shirts instead of Liverpool ones. Chelsea didn't have much of a global fanbase before 2003. I'd say now they do.
[/quote]They dont mate. Not on the same scale anyway. Even arsenal who have been succesful since the early 90's dont compete with us and United. Its decades of history they are competing with
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=39218.msg1066194#msg1066194 date=1268094545]
[quote author=Halmeister link=topic=39218.msg1066189#msg1066189 date=1268094381]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=39218.msg1066181#msg1066181 date=1268094055]
I dont really buy in to the doomsday scenarios mate, because i know how massive a brand we are. Someone will always be interested in making a success of Liverpool. We are a massive, historical club with a fanbase in the millions all over the world. With a playing squad the envy of 95% of clubs in the world. With planning permission for a 75k stadium in the park.
We're not going to struggle to exist and to compete, and we will see success again. But not under this manager.
[/quote]

THAT is what I'm looking for. Fair play. I just can't see it getting better, and certainly not anytime soon. But I suppose you're right.

It's just the fact that if City become successful at our expense we'll see kids around the world wearing City shirts instead of Liverpool ones. Chelsea didn't have much of a global fanbase before 2003. I'd say now they do.
[/quote]They dont mate. Not on the same scale anyway. Even arsenal who have been succesful since the early 90's dont compete with us and United. Its decades of history they are competing with
[/quote]

Oh I know, it's nothing compared to ours, but it's definitelty growing and so will City's. If we continue to be mediocre we'll retain the allegiance of the older fans sure, but it'll be the younger ones wanting all the merchandise who will turn to the likes of City and Chelsea.
 
If fowler, le tallec, or alonso returned as a manager, then no part of this club will seem rotten to me.
You all thought I was insane, but who can honestly tell me now alonso wouldn't have done a better job as player manager?
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=39218.msg1066181#msg1066181 date=1268094055]
I dont really buy in to the doomsday scenarios mate, because i know how massive a brand we are. Someone will always be interested in making a success of Liverpool. We are a massive, historical club with a fanbase in the millions all over the world. With a playing squad the envy of 95% of clubs in the world. With planning permission for a 75k stadium in the park.
We're not going to struggle to exist and to compete, and we will see success again. But not under this manager.
[/quote]

I hope you're right.

These days I'm really struggling to remain hopeful about our future.
 
Haha why had I never noticed you before the last few weeks, Dantes?
 
What a lucky university that is.

Just kidding of course. Don't hurt me.
 
Sure it is dark. So dark that we cannot see our fingers in front of our face.

Change the manager and we will not see the title for another five years (five year project, remember?)

Retain the manager, we will not see the title or any cups for God knows how long.

Dark indeed. Woe is me.
 
That was a very depressing performance today. It seems that we have definitely turned the corner though - unfortunately we seem to have turned into a dead end.
 
[quote author=Y1 link=topic=39218.msg1066280#msg1066280 date=1268102514]
Sure it is dark. So dark that we cannot see our fingers in front of our face.

Change the manager and we will not see the title for another five years (five year project, remember?)

Retain the manager, we will not see the title or any cups for God knows how long.

Dark indeed. Woe is me.
[/quote]Mourinho and Wenger both won league titles within a year of arriving. Five year plan is a term coined to ease pressure on a new manager not a hard and fast rule.
Reina
Torres
Gerrard
Mascherano
Johnson
Aquilani
Kuyt
Yossi
Riera
Babel
Carragher
Agger
Skrtel

the talents there. The direction, motivation, organisation and passion is lacking. A top manager brings that.
We don't need surgery, we need to train and be trained.
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=39218.msg1066355#msg1066355 date=1268121824]
[quote author=Y1 link=topic=39218.msg1066280#msg1066280 date=1268102514]
Sure it is dark. So dark that we cannot see our fingers in front of our face.

Change the manager and we will not see the title for another five years (five year project, remember?)

Retain the manager, we will not see the title or any cups for God knows how long.

Dark indeed. Woe is me.
[/quote]Mourinho and Wenger both won league titles within a year of arriving. Five year plan is a term coined to ease pressure on a new manager not a hard and fast rule.
Reina
Torres
Gerrard
Mascherano
Johnson
Aquilani
Kuyt
Yossi
Riera
Babel
Carragher
Agger
Skrtel

the talents there. The direction, motivation, organisation and passion is lacking. A top manager brings that.
We don't need surgery, we need to train and be trained.
[/quote]

Ok. I am now convinced. Rafa has to go. Now. There I say it.

Anyone is better than this. Thanks for the CL & FA Cup & bringing in Torres. Goodbye.
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=39218.msg1066355#msg1066355 date=1268121824]
[quote author=Y1 link=topic=39218.msg1066280#msg1066280 date=1268102514]
Sure it is dark. So dark that we cannot see our fingers in front of our face.

Change the manager and we will not see the title for another five years (five year project, remember?)

Retain the manager, we will not see the title or any cups for God knows how long.

Dark indeed. Woe is me.
[/quote]Mourinho and Wenger both won league titles within a year of arriving. Five year plan is a term coined to ease pressure on a new manager not a hard and fast rule.
Reina
Torres
Gerrard
Mascherano
Johnson
Aquilani
Kuyt
Yossi
Riera
Babel
Carragher
Agger
Skrtel

the talents there. The direction, motivation, organisation and passion is lacking. A top manager brings that.
We don't need surgery, we need to train and be trained.
[/quote]

No Lucas in that list?
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=39218.msg1066194#msg1066194 date=1268094545]
[quote author=Halmeister link=topic=39218.msg1066189#msg1066189 date=1268094381]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=39218.msg1066181#msg1066181 date=1268094055]
I dont really buy in to the doomsday scenarios mate, because i know how massive a brand we are. Someone will always be interested in making a success of Liverpool. We are a massive, historical club with a fanbase in the millions all over the world. With a playing squad the envy of 95% of clubs in the world. With planning permission for a 75k stadium in the park.
We're not going to struggle to exist and to compete, and we will see success again. But not under this manager.
[/quote]

THAT is what I'm looking for. Fair play. I just can't see it getting better, and certainly not anytime soon. But I suppose you're right.

It's just the fact that if City become successful at our expense we'll see kids around the world wearing City shirts instead of Liverpool ones. Chelsea didn't have much of a global fanbase before 2003. I'd say now they do.
[/quote]They dont mate. Not on the same scale anyway. Even arsenal who have been succesful since the early 90's dont compete with us and United. Its decades of history they are competing with
[/quote]

According to the latest figures the Arse actually are in our league. They're one of four other clubs besides LFC which are worth over $1 billion (the others being ManUre, Real and Bayern). The Chavs and Citeh have a way to go yet though.
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=39218.msg1066181#msg1066181 date=1268094055]
I dont really buy in to the doomsday scenarios mate, because i know how massive a brand we are. Someone will always be interested in making a success of Liverpool. We are a massive, historical club with a fanbase in the millions all over the world. With a playing squad the envy of 95% of clubs in the world. With planning permission for a 75k stadium in the park.
We're not going to struggle to exist and to compete, and we will see success again. But not under this manager.
[/quote] I feel better reading that..
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=39218.msg1066703#msg1066703 date=1268157621]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=39218.msg1066194#msg1066194 date=1268094545]
[quote author=Halmeister link=topic=39218.msg1066189#msg1066189 date=1268094381]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=39218.msg1066181#msg1066181 date=1268094055]
I dont really buy in to the doomsday scenarios mate, because i know how massive a brand we are. Someone will always be interested in making a success of Liverpool. We are a massive, historical club with a fanbase in the millions all over the world. With a playing squad the envy of 95% of clubs in the world. With planning permission for a 75k stadium in the park.
We're not going to struggle to exist and to compete, and we will see success again. But not under this manager.
[/quote]

THAT is what I'm looking for. Fair play. I just can't see it getting better, and certainly not anytime soon. But I suppose you're right.

It's just the fact that if City become successful at our expense we'll see kids around the world wearing City shirts instead of Liverpool ones. Chelsea didn't have much of a global fanbase before 2003. I'd say now they do.
[/quote]They dont mate. Not on the same scale anyway. Even arsenal who have been succesful since the early 90's dont compete with us and United. Its decades of history they are competing with
[/quote]

According to the latest figures the Arse actually are in our league. They're one of four other clubs besides LFC which are worth over $1 billion (the others being ManUre, Real and Bayern). The Chavs and Citeh have a way to go yet though.
[/quote]


but arsenal's valuation will be due to their revenues, which in their case is almost entirely down to the success of the emirates rather than a global 'brand'.

and (not that you said it), but i thought the planning permission for the ground was for 60k, not 75k.

generally, though, i agree with the basic idea that we're too big to significantly decline. our situation just seems extremely gloomy now because of the ownership problems; i'm still hoping something will have to give when RBS demand the £100m debt repayment, hopefully this will force the two morons to sell up. also, i still think we probably were especially unlucky with the timing of the credit crunch which has meant we've been caught in this ownership limbo. things seem bleak now, but things might start to turn around quickly if the banks call time on the owners.
 
All fair points there. Would only add (and this really is playing devils' advocate) that H and G were unlucky in the timing of the credit crunch too, but I've never been a big fan of theirs and it won't exactly break my heart to see the back of them.
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=39218.msg1066748#msg1066748 date=1268166396]
All fair points there. Would only add (and this really is playing devils' advocate) that H and G were unlucky in the timing of the credit crunch too, but I've never been a big fan of theirs and it won't exactly break my heart to see the back of them.
[/quote]


oh yeah, definitely, they were unlucky - no doubt. their plan wasn't unworkable, just very risky, and totally unable to absorb the shock of the recession. the real problem was with the hare brains who sold to them and their scheme in the first place.
 
Bump.

It is well and truly over for fourth. Irrefutably now even though I thought we wouldn't get it aroud Christmas time. City will get fourth, leapfrog us, strengthen in the summer to the tune of a few hundred million, maybe even trying to prise away Torres - all while we scrounge around with Benitez for bosman's and the next Degen, Voronin et al.

Someone will have to do better to convince me this time that our club isn't in for a severe decline.
 
Whilst a quality squad of a large size is preferable, its still 11 against 11.

A good manager will be able to find enough quality without having to spend shitloads of money; bearing in mind Rafa has spent shitloads on shit players, w're not in that bad a position.

We are still Liverpool, and we will be able to attract investment and hopefully, the Yanks fuck off.

Its not all bleak.
 
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