• You may have to login or register before you can post and view our exclusive members only forums.
    To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Is There Any Point In Dropping Players?

Status
Not open for further replies.

manwithnoname

Bravo old man. Bravo.
Banned
I was thinking about this when doing the ratings for the Spartak game, in which the likes of Can, Firmino, Wijnaldum, Sturridge and Karius (although maybe "rotating players" is a separate debate), all gave the sort of display that made me immediately think they should in no way start the next game.

But is there any real point in it?

Take Firmino. He's been fucking dreadful for weeks, and hasn't scored a goal since August. Now, it's not as if anyone expects him to score many, but his last few displays have been so poor that immediately everyone is talking about dropping him for Solanke (it was Sturridge, until he came on against Spartak and was horrible).

But really, why should he be dropped? What will that achieve? If he carries on being picked, there's little doubt he will eventually score again, and play better than he has for the past month. He might even have one of his annual purple patches and score 4 goals in a month or something crazy.

Dropping him will only delay that, because he's inevitably going to get picked again. So what's the point? It would perhaps be different if he was dropped for a better striker, but amazingly we don't seem sure we actually have one (but that outrageous fact is for another thread). It's the same with Lovren, or Wijanldum, or many other players we have.

Yeah, they can have very good games, and their fans start quacking loudly with the "I told you so! I've always loved him!" bollocks. We all do it. And before long they'll have a series of fucking awful games, the criticism comes back, and they get dropped for a while. Rinse. Repeat.

I do understand resting/ rotating players when the playing schedule is heavy, and allowing younger players time to calibrate and ease into the team more slowly, but the idea that dropping poorly-performing players has a benefit is a bit strange.

It's a bit like when some mediocre manager (Pardew is one of my favourite examples) is praised after his teams come out of a slump, and somehow his methods have started working again, and they've "come through it"

No they haven't. They'll be in a slump again, because he's a shit manager and the team isn't very good, and eventually he'll get sacked.

So that's the point. There's no benefit in dropping a player in a slump, because eventually they will play better again, before another slump. And why? Because they're fundamentally not good enough, and if you need to drop a player, what it actually almost always means is that they're never going to play consistently well enough and therefore should be replaced.

Really good players don't get dropped often, because they're really good players and play really well almost all the time.

So let's not drop players. It's fucking pointless. Let's get better ones.
 
In general that is true, but with Coutinho back it has meant that we can drop Wijnaldum so that is an improvement. Personally id rotate can and wijnaldum. Wijnaldum for home games and Can for the away fixtures. Actually this game on Sunday might be the perfect game for Wijnaldum to break his away duck seeing as how he used to play for them. Also when lallana comes back that's another shit midfielder dropped for him. But yeah in general there's no point dropping lovren or matip as we have no one better. Karius should just be binned and i'd give Robertson a go ahead of moreno.

I'd start Sturridge ahead of Firmino on Sunday though.
 
In general that is true, but with Coutinho back it has meant that we can drop Wijnaldum so that is an improvement. Personally id rotate can and wijnaldum. Wijnaldum for home games and Can for the away fixtures. Actually this game on Sunday might be the perfect game for Wijnaldum to break his away duck seeing as how he used to play for them. Also when lallana comes back that's another shit midfielder dropped for him. But yeah in general there's no point dropping lovren or matip as we have no one better. Karius should just be binned and i'd give Robertson a go ahead of moreno.

I'd start Sturridge ahead of Firmino on Sunday though.

But why? If he's going to be consistently better than Firmino, then he should be always playing ahead of him. I'm not sure that's even the case anymore.
 
The problem with Firmino and Sturridge is that they aren't much use unless they are played as a centre forward. The second problem with that is that Klopp hasn't realised how bad they are out wide. Just because they've failed 20 times out wide that doesn't stop him from playing them there again and again.
Whenever we see either of them played in either of the wide positions they are totally ineffective much like when we tried to play Origi there (but he was equally hopeless up front too).
 
Well he dropped Ming for the CL games and that worked out ok. Or something.

I'm sort of arguing with myself.

I think I've stated Firmino (or Wijnaldum, or Lucas, or Can, or Mignolet, Or Karius, or Lovren, or Divock or whoever) "should be dropped" plenty of times.

But I'm thinking "what's the fucking point?". If they carry on playing, they'll play well, or score eventually. They'll have games when they're playing at a high level.
If they get dropped that won't change, it will just happen later, when they're undropped.

And then a bit later, I'll be going "He shouldn't play the next game/ drop the useless cunt" again.

And so on. There's just nothing to be gained from dropping players, or in the case of the Spastic Twins in goal, "rotating them"

If there's a discussion about a player needing to be dropped due to poor form or not scoring, and this happens several times, then they don't need dropping, they need fucking off for better players.
 
But why? If he's going to be consistently better than Firmino, then he should be always playing ahead of him. I'm not sure that's even the case anymore.

Because even though he's half the player he once was he's still a better finisher than firmino. He's getting fitter and just needs to increase his work rate.
 
Has there ever been a bunch of midfielders at the club who are this inconsistent?

Henderson will have a solid game followed up by two stinkers
Wijnaldum will look great at home against a big team, and then disappear the following week away at Palace or something
Can is equally all over the place

You're right - what's the point of dropping them when you know they might pull off one of their good games for the month in the next game
 
Because even though he's half the player he once was he's still a better finisher than firmino. He's getting fitter and just needs to increase his work rate.

What a dismal state of affairs. Liverpool Football Club, and the choice between a striker who isn't very good at scoring goals, or a possibly finished player, who is about half as good as he used to be.

Is an actual debate we're having.
 
Has there ever been a bunch of midfielders at the club who are this inconsistent?

Henderson will have a solid game followed up by two stinkers
Wijnaldum will look great at home against a big team, and then disappear the following week away at Palace or something
Can is equally all over the place

You're right - what's the point of dropping them when you know they might pull off one of their good games for the month in the next game

I know. It's been really doing my swede.

DROP HIM! HE"S BEEN SHIT FOR WEEKS!

Really, why? What's the long-term gain? He won't always be shit. He'll be good for a bit. Why risk missing that good period, before the inevitable happens again?

Players who get dropped regularly - or should be according to loudmouths like me - just aren't good enough.
 
I do reckon you can tell a mile off when Frim is going to be shit. When his first touch is about 20 yards and he's passing the ball behind people in the first five minutes he should be hooked off immediately because he seldom improves during the game. I know no-one ever does it but that's what I'd do. When he's ace he's really fucking ace, but when he's shit they should swap him for Studge or Solanke early in the game.
 
What a dismal state of affairs. Liverpool Football Club, and the choice between a striker who isn't very good at scoring goals, or a possibly finished player, who is about half as good as he used to be.

Is an actual debate we're having.

But its true though. Unfortunately it won't happen because for some reason Klopp feels firmino's work rate is more important to the team overall. I get it, the runs he makes, the space he creates for mane and salah with his unselfish work and his heavy pressing from the front.
 
As for the midfield, who are you going to drop them for? There's no-one on the bench. I think they're all varying degrees of shite, but there's literally no choice.
 
I'm more in the "why drop them we haven't got any better players camp" . Which in a sense is the result of frustration.
It's not exactly a surprise that I'd drop Henderson, but for who? Milner?
I'm all for dropping Lovren, again, who will replace him?
Basically the squad has huge gaps and too many inconsistent players.

But I get your point, Firmino has been wasteful these past few games and should be dropped but he'll like you said eventually score and Sturridge hasn't done much better. People are calling for Solanke and that's another indication of frustration among the fans.
People are even calling for Woodburn...
 
I'm more in the "why drop them we haven't got any better players camp" . Which in a sense is the result of frustration.
It's not exactly a surprise that I'd drop Henderson, but for who? Milner?
I'm all for dropping Lovren, again, who will replace him?
Basically the squad has huge gaps and too many inconsistent players.

But I get your point, Firmino has been wasteful these past few games and should be dropped but he'll like you said eventually score and Sturridge hasn't done much better. People are calling for Solanke and that's another indication of frustration among the fans.
People are even calling for Woodburn...

I think maybe that's the crux of it.

But it's also fair to say that it's a universal point about "dropping" players. I can sort of get it at Abu Dhabi FC, when you have a gigantic, Croesus- funded squad, and it's about using that squad and maintaining peak fitness and keeping players totally obssessed with keeping their place, and the kick up the arse that losing it can be.

But really, they're more "rotating" anyway.

However, really good players don't get dropped. Because they're really good, and play really good football consistently.
 
its the old One proper goal scorer is better than half a dozen sometimes scorers jobbies.

We haven't got that goal scorer so things like the Tuesday night result are inevitable .

if anything, its a time to drop firmino and let Soswanky play in the middle , he looks a goalscorer
 
However, really good players don't get dropped. Because they're really good, and play really good football consistently.

Exactly, and that's why we tend to see more of Clyne, Coutinho, Mane and Salah.
To a lesser extent Matip, only because he's our most reliable CB.
 
its the old One proper goal scorer is better than half a dozen sometimes scorers jobbies.

We haven't got that goal scorer so things like the Tuesday night result are inevitable .

if anything, its a time to drop firmino and let Soswanky play in the middle , he looks a goalscorer

I wasn't really talking just about Firmino and Solanke or whoever.

It's just that every fucking season, at least two or three times AT LEAST, we have the same debate about the same players:

Lucas (for a decade), Henderson, Can, Wijnaldum, Lovren, Firmino, fucking Mignolet.

"They should be dropped"
"We need a proper striker"
"Give Karius a game"
"Drop Karius/ Drop Mignolet"
"Lucas is so underrated/ shit/ slow/ a liability/ vital"
"Only play Wijnaldum away"

If it's the same discussions about the same players around the same issues, then it's pretty clear we don't need to "drop" them, we need to get rid of them.
 
It's no real punishment because the replacement will be shit in a few weeks so they'll be back in. It also seems Klopp mostly picks his sides based on fitness levels rather than performances.

Sent from my X5 using Tapatalk
 
I'm more in the "why drop them we haven't got any better players camp" . Which in a sense is the result of frustration.
It's not exactly a surprise that I'd drop Henderson, but for who? Milner?
I'm all for dropping Lovren, again, who will replace him?
Basically the squad has huge gaps and too many inconsistent players.

But I get your point, Firmino has been wasteful these past few games and should be dropped but he'll like you said eventually score and Sturridge hasn't done much better. People are calling for Solanke and that's another indication of frustration among the fans.
People are even calling for Woodburn...
I don't think Woodburn is ready to start up front but it's still a bit strange that Klopp hasn't tried him there from the bench. Even in cup games he's shunted here there and everywhere except upfront, it's not like we play target man style of football but the lad could surprise us if given a chance. In recent games all we needed was a decent goal hanger to finish the attacking moves off but Firmino isn't a clinical finisher and Sturridge isn't any better at the moment.
 
I wasn't really talking just about Firmino and Solanke or whoever.

It's just that every fucking season, at least two or three times AT LEAST, we have the same debate about the same players:

Lucas (for a decade), Henderson, Can, Wijnaldum, Lovren, Firmino, fucking Mignolet.

"They should be dropped"
"We need a proper striker"
"Give Karius a game"
"Drop Karius/ Drop Mignolet"
"Lucas is so underrated/ shit/ slow/ a liability/ vital"
"Only play Wijnaldum away"

If it's the same discussions about the same players around the same issues, then it's pretty clear we don't need to "drop" them, we need to get rid of them.

Well this just goes back to what I said in the other thread.

The main difference between players at the highest level is consistency. Fuck, even Coutinho wasn't thought of as class two seasons ago because despite him having games where he looked world class he'd then have two or three where he'd be average at best. Only when he's found his consistency has he risen in stature.

That applies to all players though. A defender who is just very good but not world class, but consistent enough to ALWAYS be very good, will often find himself playing for the biggest sides in the world.

Utd under fergie always had players who we'd mock for being bang average, but they'd be consistent as fuck across a full season, which is why they were there.

Salah is consistent. Mane is consistent. Coutinho still isn't but his bad games are now above most others average, so that's ok. I'm honestly struggling to name anyone, one other single player who is consistent. Well, consistently good anyway!
 
I don't think Woodburn is ready to start up front but it's still a bit strange that Klopp hasn't tried him there from the bench. Even in cup games he's shunted here there and everywhere except upfront, it's not like we play target man style of football but the lad could surprise us if given a chance. In recent games all we needed was a decent goal hanger to finish the attacking moves off but Firmino isn't a clinical finisher and Sturridge isn't any better at the moment.
The only opportunity he had to play him was against Leicester which was a difficult away game and he did.
 
I might be wrong but it feels like the most common reason for a player being "dropped" is when the manager wants to make a point or there are off the field issues.

For example:
  • Aguero was briefly out of the team last season. There was talk of him not him working hard enough or whatever and apparently he's improved that since.
  • Klopp was pretty much forced to drop Karius due to all the pressure building up in the media and amongst the fans

In terms of managing players performances, I think it's only really worthwhile if the player could be doing more to improve the situation but isn't or is there is a sustained period of shitness.
 
Well this just goes back to what I said in the other thread.

The main difference between players at the highest level is consistency. Fuck, even Coutinho wasn't thought of as class two seasons ago because despite him having games where he looked world class he'd then have two or three where he'd be average at best. Only when he's found his consistency has he risen in stature.

That applies to all players though. A defender who is just very good but not world class, but consistent enough to ALWAYS be very good, will often find himself playing for the biggest sides in the world.

Utd under fergie always had players who we'd mock for being bang average, but they'd be consistent as fuck across a full season, which is why they were there.

Salah is consistent. Mane is consistent. Coutinho still isn't but his bad games are now above most others average, so that's ok. I'm honestly struggling to name anyone, one other single player who is consistent. Well, consistently good anyway!

The only thing i'd add to that is the best players will also be good no matter what the situation around them is.

Whereas the good and lesser ones need to be put in a position/ situation that suits them best.

We have too many of the latter - and the manager isn't putting them in the best position to succeed, so they aren't.
 
The only opportunity he had to play him was against Leicester which was a difficult away game and he did.
Not as a centre forward he didn't , he replaced Coutinho and played left wing then dropped back into midfield after Ings came on. In the last couple of games he couldn't have scored less than any of the other strikers as we haven't had a centre forward score since the Sevilla game. How many chances have the centre forwards (not the wingers) missed since then?
 
But really, why should he be dropped? What will that achieve? If he carries on being picked, there's little doubt he will eventually score again, and play better than he has for the past month. He might even have one of his annual purple patches and score 4 goals in a month or something crazy.

Dropping him will only delay that, because he's inevitably going to get picked again. So what's the point? It would perhaps be different if he was dropped for a better striker, but amazingly we don't seem sure we actually have one (but that outrageous fact is for another thread). It's the same with Lovren, or Wijanldum, or many other players we have.

Why do they have to play themselves into form in competitive matches though? Can we not to drop them out of the team, wait until they're on fire in training then get them back in the side?

Knowing Wijnaldum though he probably is on fire in training then plays like shite regardless (away)
 
The only thing i'd add to that is the best players will also be good no matter what the situation around them is.

Whereas the good and lesser ones need to be put in a position/ situation that suits them best.

We have too many of the latter - and the manager isn't putting them in the best position to succeed, so they aren't.

That seems like a point worth expanding on.

Which players do you think should change roles and why?
 
But is he a centre forward? He plays on the wing for Wales as well.
I think its' worth a try especially towards the end of games that we're dominating. The only way to find out if his finishing is better than some of the the other options available is to give the lad a chance. As I said I don't think he's ready to start games up front yet and throwing him at the deep end could be too much for him but as a sub I don't think we've got anything to lose.
Let's face it Sturridge and Firmino are not wingers and never will be but that hasn't stopped Klopp playing them there in the past, with very little success.
 
I think its' worth a try especially towards the end of games that we're dominating. The only way to find out if his finishing is better than some of the the other options available is to give the lad a chance. As I said I don't think he's ready to start games up front yet and throwing him at the deep end could be too much for him but as a sub I don't think we've got anything to lose.
Let's face it Sturridge and Firmino are not wingers and never will be but that hasn't stopped Klopp playing them there in the past, with very little success.
That's a good point.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom