Is Henderson our biggest problem?

[peekay]

To me more than Henderson, the signing of Thiago was the problem. Before anyone jumps on me, Thiago is a sublime midfielder and probably put in some of the greatest midfield displays seen at Anfield. To me it was a problem because it was a sign that our so called super stats super smart committee didn't value being available as a key requirement. If we were purchasing Thiago, we should have immediately sold Keita and Ox and replaced them with someone more reliable.

 

[Hansern]

The signing of Thiago isnt the issue. But the lack of other options to compliment each other is the problem.

 

[Markeh]

Klopp dislikes moving players on, it seems to me.

Yup. But looking at the greater picture though this might just be one of those things we have to accept, it could well be the price of togetherness and morale.

Imo it’s fine for Klopp to do this so long as we’ve thought about how and when we succeed the declining players. We just need to be more proactive about securing what we need and give ourselves some wiggle room incase it doesn’t work out (e.g. Tchouameni)

Looking at the Mane situation for example, the club wanted to bring Diaz in cold in the summer ahead of the new season. It’s just luck Tottenham pushed us early and gave us the 6 month overlap between the two and luck nobody else came in.

If we do the same shit again with Bellingham and whoever are we going to get different results? If we’re lucky yes but it seems risky and somewhat small time.

 

[Tinto]

To me more than Henderson, the signing of Thiago was the problem. Before anyone jumps on me, Thiago is a sublime midfielder and probably put in some of the greatest midfield displays seen at Anfield. To me it was a problem because it was a sign that our so called super stats super smart committee didn't value being available as a key requirement. If we were purchasing Thiago, we should have immediately sold Keita and Ox and replaced them with someone more reliable.

If Jones made any progress in his development, he would come in whenever Thiago was unavailable along with Keita.

Jones just hasn't become the player we thought he would

 

[jan]

It would also be helpful if Jones was alive

 

[peekay]

If Jones made any progress in his development, he would come in whenever Thiago was unavailable along with Keita.

Jones just hasn't become the player we thought he would

I rate Jones more than most posters on SCM and have made several posts defending him. But we should not depend on youngsters filling up holes particularly in an area like midfield unless they are Stevie G level talents. If they end up doing well, we should treat it as a bonus and adjust accordingly.

The Carvalho Coutinho comparison made by posters also makes me a wee bit nervous. I like Carvalho. The kid is super talented and skillful on the ball. But an 18-20 year old Coutinho was different level in terms of skill, ability on the ball, going past players etc.

 

[rurikbird]

I rate Jones more than most posters on SCM and have made several posts defending him. But we should not depend on youngsters filling up holes particularly in an area like midfield unless they are Stevie G level talents. If they end up doing well, we should treat it as a bonus and adjust accordingly.

The Carvalho Coutinho comparison made by posters also makes me a wee bit nervous. I like Carvalho. The kid is super talented and skillful on the ball. But an 18-20 year old Coutinho was different level in terms of skill, ability on the ball, going past players etc.

Different level to Carvalho? No, I think they’re quite comparable. And I was a big fan of young Coutinho.

 

[rurikbird]

I understand and largely agree with all the posts looking at the bigger picture, lack of succession planning etc. But in the immediate terms, I do think Hendo is unfortunately the problem, because his nosedive in form created a situation where Klopp either has to drop his title-winning captain 2 months before the World Cup or try to fit him in somehow despite it clearly not working. The simple reality is that in 2 games Hendo started our midfield was utterly diabolical and in the 1 game he didn’t it was fine.

I think United was the last chance to make the midfield 3 work with Henderson in Thiago’s absence and surely from now on it’s Fabinho at #6 no matter what. The only other option is switching the system to a double-pivot, in which case Fabinho and Henderson could potentially play together like they did in the last part of the game against Palace.

 

[MomoWASright]

To me more than Henderson, the signing of Thiago was the problem. Before anyone jumps on me, Thiago is a sublime midfielder and probably put in some of the greatest midfield displays seen at Anfield. To me it was a problem because it was a sign that our so called super stats super smart committee didn't value being available as a key requirement. If we were purchasing Thiago, we should have immediately sold Keita and Ox and replaced them with someone more reliable.

I’ve just said this in another thread before realising you’d said it here.

 

[Red Bird]

To me more than Henderson, the signing of Thiago was the problem. Before anyone jumps on me, Thiago is a sublime midfielder and probably put in some of the greatest midfield displays seen at Anfield. To me it was a problem because it was a sign that our so called super stats super smart committee didn't value being available as a key requirement. If we were purchasing Thiago, we should have immediately sold Keita and Ox and replaced them with someone more reliable.

Yea, yes, yes and yes.

 

[Donavan Ried]

Henderson is fine. Yes we need a replacement for him. When we have a real problem is when we play Henderson and Milner together

 

[mark1975]

I understand and largely agree with all the posts looking at the bigger picture, lack of succession planning etc. But in the immediate terms, I do think Hendo is unfortunately the problem, because his nosedive in form created a situation where Klopp either has to drop his title-winning captain 2 months before the World Cup or try to fit him in somehow despite it clearly not working. The simple reality is that in 2 games Hendo started our midfield was utterly diabolical and in the 1 game he didn’t it was fine. I think United was the last chance to make the midfield 3 work with Henderson in Thiago’s absence and surely from now on it’s Fabinho at #6 no matter what.

The only other option is switching the system to a double-pivot, in which case Fabinho and Henderson could potentially play together like they did in the last part of the game against Palace.

But the issue wasn't just Henderson starting, it was him starting with Milner. It's a combination that's rarely worked over the years, because they are too similar (I guess). The whole team is being overran at the minute, Fabinho hasn't been pulling up trees either but looked a million times better when he came on last night, despite clearly still being off his best. We've been overran with and without Henderson or Fabinho starting, teams seem to be finding holes against us everywhere. Some say it's the midfield, some say it's the defense, but collectively as a team we were second to everything. Robbo, Firmino and Salah were all beaten repeatedly last night, besides all the problems elsewhere. We didn't defend from the front like we do, we were bypassed, outfought and out-thought in midfield and the defense were a shit show.

I agree that Fabinho should be the number 6, I'd even give Bajcetic a go there too, but we need to get our fitness levels up and find the right blend of youth and experience, and of technical ability and physical ability.

 

[Red Bird]

Probably because he's never allowed to sign anyone.

Would it make any difference, anyway, if Keita and Oxlade Chamberlain were moved on?

 

[Modo]

To answer the OP, Henderson is not our biggest problem.
He's just useless in the DM position like he's always been

 

[peekay]

Different level to Carvalho? No, I think they’re quite comparable. And I was a big fan of young Coutinho.

Let us agree to disagree on this one. Coutinho was a couple of years older when he started for us. But he looked a different level on terms of pure skills and ability on the ball. Carvalho can develop to be a more effective player. But I doubt he will become a "magician on the ball" the way Coutinho was.

 

[peekay]

I’ve just said this in another thread before realising you’d said it here.

Might be my fault. I have been posting on so many threads that I lost track. 🙂

 

[MomoWASright]

Might be my fault. I have been posting on so many threads that I lost track. 🙂

Nah, you posted before me.

 

[binomial]

Henderson is fine. Yes we need a replacement for him. When we have a real problem is when we play Henderson and Milner together

Top midfielders should be able to play with whoever.

Why is it never Thiago can't play with Hendo, Fab can't play with Naby yet it's always Hendo can't play with Milner, Milner can't play with Fab.

Hendo and Milner - Great servants that will be remembered, but their time were 2-3 years ago.

 

[Markeh]

To answer the OP, Henderson is not our biggest problem.
He's just useless in the DM position like he's always been

except for the spell when he wasn’t

 

[Modo]

except for the spell when he wasn’t

We didn't start winning shit until he was moved from that position though.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

To me more than Henderson, the signing of Thiago was the problem. Before anyone jumps on me, Thiago is a sublime midfielder and probably put in some of the greatest midfield displays seen at Anfield. To me it was a problem because it was a sign that our so called super stats super smart committee didn't value being available as a key requirement. If we were purchasing Thiago, we should have immediately sold Keita and Ox and replaced them with someone more reliable.

Why would anyone jump down your throat?
Many of us said the same the same thing ... It was just common sense really.
One point you've also not brought up is he's not a great 'defender' - so instead of only having to carry TAA, the team would now have to also carry him too ... Which is a burden on a team ...

 

[peekay]

Why would anyone jump down your throat?
Many of us said the same the same thing ... It was just common sense really.
One point you've also not brought up is he's not a great 'defender' - so instead of only having to carry TAA, the team would now have to also carry him too ... Which is a burden on a team ...

I have not been a fan of the Thiago signing from the start. Not because I am not a fan of Thiago the player. But for other reasons, including my previous post you just quoted. Posters have been harsh on those posts and I respect those views also. That is why I added that disqualifier. Also, I recognize that zeroing on Thiago is harsh and to a certain extend dumb when we have Keita and Ox in the squad.

 

[peekay]

Unfortunately, I think the Thiago experiment has run its course. Great player, he was supposed to give us something different and help us land some trophies in the short term. Which he did, except the trophies weren't the ones we really wanted.

Trophy, not trophies. He had minimal to zero contribution towards the League Cup win. Other than him getting injured in the warm up of the final, not sure he had any role in the League cup win.

 

[Frogfish]

The way we play the 4-3-3 has changed since Thiago's arrival. The natural inclination of the Fabinho-Thiago pairing is that they revert to a double pivot with the third midfielder (Henderson or Elliott) allowed to drift wide and also to support the 9 (Jota or Darwin) if necessary. There's also the Trent drifting inwards experiment as the third mid provides the width on the right.

Now Fabinho-Thiago can do a pretty solid job positionally, and they control the game well when they're fit and available. In theory, Fabinho-Thiago with Elliott at RCM can be a competent midfield provided we have Konate's pace and athleticism covering the space behind, and also the power of Darwin or the goal threat of Jota keeping the CBs totally occupied.

That can work, but that's now literally the only 3-man combination that works without any alternatives. That's without even going into Thiago's injury proneness or Fabinho's bad form.

Unfortunately, I think the Thiago experiment has run its course. Great player, he was supposed to give us something different and help us land some trophies in the short term. Which he did, except the trophies weren't the ones we really wanted.

Going forward, if Klopp is to recreate his 2017-2020 version of Liverpool which can again compete for titles, he needs to construct a new version of the Wijnaldum-Fabinho-Henderson midfield. That's the only way forward, and it requires dipping into the transfer market. There is no other way, no matter how many times Klopp denies it.

Whilst i completely agree with your first three paragraphs I totally disagree with the last. A 'new construct of the Wijnaldum-Fabinho-Henderson midfield' isn't the 'only way forward' at all. Half this forum was crying out for more creativity with that three and of course we no longer have peak Mane-Bobby-Mo upfront, where it used to be a case of give them the ball and marvel at the goals.
I like what Klopp has done with the attack overhaul (Diaz, Nunez, Jota and Mo) but we are now in that midfield transition stage and clearly Klopp is looking for more creativity with the likes of Carvalho/Elliott. Behind them Fabinho just looks like he's going with a poor form phase, maybe caused by the accumulated efforts of the past few years or the short Summer break, I don't however think that he won't return to form.

Klopp needs to bite the bullet and go full Fabs/Thiago/Carvalho or Elliott until we acquire our next top midfielder (who'll likely be phased in for Thiago over a season or two). Maybe Bajcetic or Morton will emerge as a good backups/replacements for Fabinho to lessen the load over the next couple of seasons until he's replaced (but I wouldn't be in hurry, Fernandinho played well up until he was 35 yrs old, he should have left 18 months before he did at close to his 37th birthday though. Hopefully Fabinho will last just as long.

 

[Frogfish]

Gomez doesn't concern me as much as he's 4th choice at CB and has come in from the cold and been totally exposed. Sure, he could have done better in moments, but the whole defence had very little protection.

The bigger issue for me is about the balance of the team. We've totally lost it recently.

Diaz doesn't give us the same threat Mane did, or have the same defensive protection Mane did, as evidenced in the CL final where failed to cover Robbo who lost the ball going forward for their goal. This also means we need more threat from our CF. Bobby gives us nothing at CF, but nice touches here or there. We can't play with him as a false 9 anymore without a CF in front of him. Nunez has good movement and could get a lot of goals if only the man could trap a ball and strike it cleanly. I sense he will get into many goalscoring positions when played, but fuck it up due to a poor touch/finish.

Also, the right hand side has been completely unbalanced by trying to play Elliot as mentioned previously.

Even we had Konate there (who is a beast as shown in CL final), he's being asked to do too much defending when Trent, Harvey and Mo are all forward.

Moreover, I love TAA but he's playing like a half-arsed mong right now. The man can't even be arsed to run back. He needs to be either moved into midfield or dropped until he gets his act together, and fast.

I think a quick fix is to switch to a 4-2-3-1. Fab and Hendo CM. Diaz, Carvalho/Bobby, Elliott 3. Salah up top, until Nunez/Jota gets back.

Sorry but can't agree with that summation on Diaz at all - he's as good as tracking back as Mane was. And using one instance as an example (CL final) clearly means nothing, many's the time Robbo & Mane were working together in the final ⅓ and lost possession. That's where the defensive DM and CB come into play.

 

[Frogfish]

The signing of Thiago isnt the issue. But the lack of other options to compliment each other is the problem.

Pedant Alert !!

Complement not compliment.

 

[localny]

This is all part of a KLOPP plan to reduce expectations before a 40 match unbeaten run

 

[Woland]

If Jones made any progress in his development, he would come in whenever Thiago was unavailable along with Keita.

Jones just hasn't become the player we thought he would

I don't think it's Jones fault. We keep picking shite ahead of him because they cost more.

I rate Jones more than most posters on SCM and have made several posts defending him. But we should not depend on youngsters filling up holes particularly in an area like midfield unless they are Stevie G level talents. If they end up doing well, we should treat it as a bonus and adjust accordingly.

The Carvalho Coutinho comparison made by posters also makes me a wee bit nervous. I like Carvalho. The kid is super talented and skillful on the ball. But an 18-20 year old Coutinho was different level in terms of skill, ability on the ball, going past players etc.

18-20 year old coutinho was being loaned out to Espanol etc, which is why we got him for peanuts.

 

[localny]

 

[Donavan Ried]

Top midfielders should be able to play with whoever.

Why is it never Thiago can't play with Hendo, Fab can't play with Naby yet it's always Hendo can't play with Milner, Milner can't play with Fab.

Hendo and Milner - Great servants that will be remembered, but their time were 2-3 years ago.

For me it is the lack of creativity we get when Milner and Henderson play in midfield together that the problem