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In defense of our tactics

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Ken Early: Strong case for the defence of Jurgen Klopp’s vision

Liverpool have a better chance of success if they keep taking the game to the opposition
about 8 hours ago
Ken Early
1
image.jpg

Liverpool manager Jurgen Klopp celebrates after the victory over Leicester City. Photograph: Darren Staples/Reuters


For Jurgen Klopp, watching Liverpool try to defend over the last couple of weeks must be a bit like being held captive by a sadist who has strapped you to a chair and placed a ticking time-bomb in your lap. Maybe the timer is set to go off before the final whistle, maybe not. You just have to wait and see.
At the King Power Stadium on Saturday evening, Leicester won a free-kick in the last minute of injury time and a touchline camera scuttled over to see how Klopp was taking it. The Liverpool manager broke the fourth wall, directing a hollow grin into the lens. Everyone knew what was coming next.
Except this time the fatalists were wrong. Liverpool defended the set-piece and won the match 3-2.
Afterwards, Klopp said: “We believe we are on a good way, but we are absolutely aware that we have to show it with results, so that everybody can see it.”
The last couple of weeks have seen many pundits suggest that Klopp doesn’t understand how to organise a defence. His remark about showing it with results showed that he does understand the English football audience. In England, hardly anybody cares about what actually happens out on the pitch. It’s much easier just to look at the result and base all your opinions on that.
It’s clear Liverpool have been letting in too many goals. Six games into the Premier League season they have already conceded 11. Only Crystal Palace, West Ham and Leicester have conceded more and those teams are all in the bottom five.
Yet those who claim that this proves Klopp can’t organise a defence have to explain how it is that such a poorly-organised team does such a good job of restricting their opponents’ opportunities to shoot at goal. Liverpool have allowed their opponents fewer shots than any other team except Manchester City.

That’s because Klopp, like Pep Guardiola, is one of those system managers who believes that the best way to defend is to play the game in the other team’s half, far away from your goal. And their systems appear to work, because City and Liverpool are also the two teams who have had most shots on their opponents’ goals.
And yet these system managers seldom get any credit for good defending. When the system works it means the other team has barely had a sight of goal; it just looks like they’ve played badly. Nobody applauds the tackles and saves you don’t need to make.
English football awards Good Defending Points for the sort of things the fans cheer; the spectacular saves, the last-ditch tackles, the thumping clearing headers. The fact that your players only have to do these things because you are failing to control the game further up the pitch seldom seems to occur to anybody.
Liverpool’s problem this season has been that when they do give up a chance, it has tended to be from point-blank range. They have allowed their opponents nine shots on goal from inside the six-yard box, conceding five goals. Only Bournemouth have allowed more shots from within six yards, and no team has conceded more from close range than Liverpool’s five.
Drop deep

Last season, Liverpool were better at preventing this sort of point-blank chance. They were giving them away at about half this season’s rate – allowing 26 shots from inside six yards over the course of the season. This compares well with the 22 allowed by Chelsea or the 25 allowed by Manchester United.
Liverpool did concede more goals from these chances: they let in 11 from 26 close-range shots, while Chelsea conceded just two and United seven. But that’s the difference a world-class goalkeeper like Thibaut Courtois or David de Gea can make.
Klopp has therefore already shown that he can organise a defence to a decent level, so unless he has mysteriously forgotten how to do it over the summer, the recent deterioration must have some other explanation. The most obvious is that Liverpool have been doing without two of their regular back four from last season, as Nathaniel Clyne is injured and James Milner has said he no longer wants to play at left-back.
There is another approach to defending, which is to drop deep and pull men back behind the ball. Klopp could do this and he would probably be praised for “tightening things up”, but it would also be the worst thing he could do. Liverpool have had managers like that before and their methods did not bring success.
Gerard Houllier and Rafael Benitez both spent six seasons at Anfield. Houllier used Dietmar Hamann just in front of a defence that often consisted of four centre-backs; his side kept six men behind the ball at all times.
Rafael Benitez had a more liberal attitude to full-backs crossing the halfway line, but he also liked to have two defensive midfielders in front of the defence. Houllier’s teams averaged 61 goals scored and 37 conceded per season, while Benitez’s averaged 62 scored and 30 conceded. Neither of them managed to win the league, because nobody ever wins the league scoring as few as 62 goals.
Klopp’s full season in charge of Liverpool saw them score 78 – their second highest total of the Premier League era – and concede 42. This is promising because the English league rewards high-scoring teams: 14 of 22 champions in the Premier League era have also been the division’s top scorers, but only nine out of 22 champions have had the meanest defence.

Liverpool have a better chance of success if they keep on taking the game to the opposition, rather than sitting back and hoping the game doesn’t happen to them.
 
"Neither of them managed to win the league, because nobody ever wins the league scoring as few as 62 goals."

Klopp's never come as close to winning the league as those two did (ignoring the other trophies that they actually did win) and as far as league-winning stats go, it's equally hard to win the league when you concede more goals than nay other team in the Top 4.

(And that's ignoring the fact that we scored less than any other team in the Top 4 either).

Suggesting that we can go on as Klopp has, when we have conceded a frankly incredible 91 goals in 73 Premier League games since he joined (worse than City, United, Chelsea, Spurs and Arsenal) is ludicrous.

What a shit, Klopp fanboy, load of shite article.
 
I love how the author states the defence is clearly working because we concede fewer shots than the opposition.

No mention of the fact that Southampton, along with six other teams, have conceded less than us since Klopp was appointed.

Sent from my X5 using Tapatalk
 
Think it's a bit fu'ken early for articles like this. I've loved a lot of the football that we've played, but Klopp's tactics/vision can only really be seen as a success once he's won something. Put it back in your pants, Ken.
 
Think it's a bit fu'ken early for articles like this. I've loved a lot of the football that we've played, but Klopp's tactics/vision can only really be seen as a success once he's won something. Put it back in your pants, Ken.

Are we sure he doesn't post here?
 
His article is a tremendous example of cherry-picking stats to suit an argument, it is going to be tough to narrow it down to any one poster.

One of the more excitable ones who thought - like Ken here - that our playing style is carefully crafted and orchestrated, and our defence is actually OK really.
 
Are we sure he doesn't post here?

Ken Early is Dreambeliever.

Although to be fair the basic premise of the article is fine.

Klopp has his system, it works by restricting shots on goal by getting the ball back before the opposition can shoot.

The problem is that when you do give up shots in a pressing system they tend to be good opportunities.

There's a possibility that we've been a bit unlucky that so many chances have turned to goals, but i'm comfortable in my view that most of our defenders aren't particularly good. Neither are our goalkeepers, so i don't expect a huge bounceback on account of randomness.

So essentially what i'm saying is the article leads us back to what we already know - our defence is shite. So we can either totally change our approach or buy better ones. Klopp has done neither so far
 
Ken Early: Strong case for the defence of Jurgen Klopp’s vision

Liverpool have a better chance of success if they keep taking the game to the opposition
about 8 hours ago
Ken Early
1
image.jpg

Liverpool manager Jurgen Klopp celebrates after the victory over Leicester City. Photograph: Darren Staples/Reuters


For Jurgen Klopp, watching Liverpool try to defend over the last couple of weeks must be a bit like being held captive by a sadist who has strapped you to a chair and placed a ticking time-bomb in your lap. Maybe the timer is set to go off before the final whistle, maybe not. You just have to wait and see.
At the King Power Stadium on Saturday evening, Leicester won a free-kick in the last minute of injury time and a touchline camera scuttled over to see how Klopp was taking it. The Liverpool manager broke the fourth wall, directing a hollow grin into the lens. Everyone knew what was coming next.
Except this time the fatalists were wrong. Liverpool defended the set-piece and won the match 3-2.
Afterwards, Klopp said: “We believe we are on a good way, but we are absolutely aware that we have to show it with results, so that everybody can see it.”
The last couple of weeks have seen many pundits suggest that Klopp doesn’t understand how to organise a defence. His remark about showing it with results showed that he does understand the English football audience. In England, hardly anybody cares about what actually happens out on the pitch. It’s much easier just to look at the result and base all your opinions on that.
It’s clear Liverpool have been letting in too many goals. Six games into the Premier League season they have already conceded 11. Only Crystal Palace, West Ham and Leicester have conceded more and those teams are all in the bottom five.
Yet those who claim that this proves Klopp can’t organise a defence have to explain how it is that such a poorly-organised team does such a good job of restricting their opponents’ opportunities to shoot at goal. Liverpool have allowed their opponents fewer shots than any other team except Manchester City.

That’s because Klopp, like Pep Guardiola, is one of those system managers who believes that the best way to defend is to play the game in the other team’s half, far away from your goal. And their systems appear to work, because City and Liverpool are also the two teams who have had most shots on their opponents’ goals.
And yet these system managers seldom get any credit for good defending. When the system works it means the other team has barely had a sight of goal; it just looks like they’ve played badly. Nobody applauds the tackles and saves you don’t need to make.
English football awards Good Defending Points for the sort of things the fans cheer; the spectacular saves, the last-ditch tackles, the thumping clearing headers. The fact that your players only have to do these things because you are failing to control the game further up the pitch seldom seems to occur to anybody.
Liverpool’s problem this season has been that when they do give up a chance, it has tended to be from point-blank range. They have allowed their opponents nine shots on goal from inside the six-yard box, conceding five goals. Only Bournemouth have allowed more shots from within six yards, and no team has conceded more from close range than Liverpool’s five.
Drop deep

Last season, Liverpool were better at preventing this sort of point-blank chance. They were giving them away at about half this season’s rate – allowing 26 shots from inside six yards over the course of the season. This compares well with the 22 allowed by Chelsea or the 25 allowed by Manchester United.
Liverpool did concede more goals from these chances: they let in 11 from 26 close-range shots, while Chelsea conceded just two and United seven. But that’s the difference a world-class goalkeeper like Thibaut Courtois or David de Gea can make.
Klopp has therefore already shown that he can organise a defence to a decent level, so unless he has mysteriously forgotten how to do it over the summer, the recent deterioration must have some other explanation. The most obvious is that Liverpool have been doing without two of their regular back four from last season, as Nathaniel Clyne is injured and James Milner has said he no longer wants to play at left-back.
There is another approach to defending, which is to drop deep and pull men back behind the ball. Klopp could do this and he would probably be praised for “tightening things up”, but it would also be the worst thing he could do. Liverpool have had managers like that before and their methods did not bring success.
Gerard Houllier and Rafael Benitez both spent six seasons at Anfield. Houllier used Dietmar Hamann just in front of a defence that often consisted of four centre-backs; his side kept six men behind the ball at all times.
Rafael Benitez had a more liberal attitude to full-backs crossing the halfway line, but he also liked to have two defensive midfielders in front of the defence. Houllier’s teams averaged 61 goals scored and 37 conceded per season, while Benitez’s averaged 62 scored and 30 conceded. Neither of them managed to win the league, because nobody ever wins the league scoring as few as 62 goals.
Klopp’s full season in charge of Liverpool saw them score 78 – their second highest total of the Premier League era – and concede 42. This is promising because the English league rewards high-scoring teams: 14 of 22 champions in the Premier League era have also been the division’s top scorers, but only nine out of 22 champions have had the meanest defence.

Liverpool have a better chance of success if they keep on taking the game to the opposition, rather than sitting back and hoping the game doesn’t happen to them.
Brilliant post and no one can argue with any of that. It feels much better when we have that ball and are not constantly defending like we did under GH or Raffa. We just need to put those gazillion chances away by thinking and making the right decisions.
 
I think you guys are being a bit harsh.

I get the point regarding the stats he picked out and the conclusions drawn from them but on the whole he seemed to be arguing in favour of what he thinks Klopp and Pep's approach to defence is more than anything else.
 
"Neither of them managed to win the league, because nobody ever wins the league scoring as few as 62 goals."

Klopp's never come as close to winning the league as those two did (ignoring the other trophies that they actually did win) and as far as league-winning stats go, it's equally hard to win the league when you concede more goals than nay other team in the Top 4.

(And that's ignoring the fact that we scored less than any other team in the Top 4 either).

Suggesting that we can go on as Klopp has, when we have conceded a frankly incredible 91 goals in 73 Premier League games since he joined (worse than City, United, Chelsea, Spurs and Arsenal) is ludicrous.

What a shit, Klopp fanboy, load of shite article.

Mate, you're too agenda driven here.

"Klopp's never come as close to winning the league as those two did"...

He's had one full season to do it - with someone else's team pretty much. How do you use a "Never" there? Both Houllier and Benitez had one season when they were chasing another club for the title, but they never exactly had it in their own hands.

Klopp has won the Bundesliga using this tactic. Why are you so keen to piss on the manager? just to win an argument, or a position? It's making for negative, tiring agenda driven threads.

We get it, he's defended badly so far this season, he's working on it. consider the point made. We'll have plenty of ups and downs and defensive calamities until we work it out.
 
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I think you guys are being a bit harsh.

I get the point regarding the stats he picked out and the conclusions drawn from them but on the whole he seemed to be arguing in favour of what he thinks Klopp and Pep's approach to defence is more than anything else.

Pep has the players to make it work, that is so far proven with 21 goals scored and only 2 conceded in the league. Meanwhile, our defensive woes continue unabated.

We haven't addressed the defensive issues from last year and, on balance, it looks like the better defensive record towards the end of last year was a blip and not a marker of better things ahead.

Pep and Klopp's systems may seem sound on paper, but only one of them is working correctly in the Premier League right now.
 
Pep has the players to make it work, that is so far proven with 21 goals scored and only 2 conceded in the league. Meanwhile, our defensive woes continue unabated.

We haven't addressed the defensive issues from last year and, on balance, it looks like the better defensive record towards the end of last year was a blip and not a marker of better things ahead.

Pep and Klopp's systems may seem sound on paper, but only one of them is working correctly in the Premier League right now.

Yup, I agree.

The author seems to be advocating that long-term Klopp should stick to his guns but we absolutely could've and should've done something about the here and now.
 
And yet, if mane would have got to the ball a second earlier a couple of weeks ago we might be ahead of Citeh now.
EXACTLY - it was that one incident that has led us all to these silly arguments. I expect Man City to start having a few problems - they have started the last two seasons the way they have started this season by blitzing all teams in front of them. I expect them to lose or have a couple of draws in the next few games. Also how do we know that these last two/three games in which our scoring boots have come off were not just the glitch for us this season ? - that could be our bad bit done early and now we go onto crush and fuck the opposition because Mane is coming back. It maybe the thing this season very much like when Suarez was banned early on in that great season under Rodgers and then BOOM BOOM !!! we start fucking everything in front of us. Man City were utter shit in my view and there for the mauling while Mane was on the pitch - it is such a shame.
 
Never mind the fact that citeh result distorts our goals against which is being used by our own "fans" to beat the manager up
 
Klopp didn't get his man for CD and we are stuck with Ming because Karius is a nervous Nelly which he presumably wasn't in Germany.We are stuck with pretty much the same defence as last year and we have all complained and moaned and blamed Klopp.But for fuck sake so early in the season to be lodged in a rut of such dead headery and shitty attitude that a rare positive article on our play is pissed all over with such abandon cannot be right.And yes I am talking to you he who takes the image of Clint in vain-the silent assasin represnting the wordy know it all is not right either.You should change it to Woody Allen.
 
Mate, you're too agenda driven here.

"Klopp's never come as close to winning the league as those two did"...

He's had one full season to do it - with someone else's team pretty much. How do you use a "Never" there? Both Houllier and Benitez had one season when they were chasing another club for the title, but they never exactly had it in their own hands.

Klopp has won the Bundesliga using this tactic. Why are you so keen to piss on the manager? just to win an argument, or a position? It's making for negative, tiring agenda driven threads.

We get it, he's defended badly so far this season, he's working on it. consider the point made. We'll have plenty of ups and downs and defensive calamities until we work it out.

I'm keen to piss on that dreadful article.

Because it's bollocks. Abu Dhabi FC can afford to let Guardiola play any way he chooses, because he's been given a billion pounds to spend and has the best squad in the league. Just like he had the best squad in every league he's won.

We can't afford to try and copy that, without having Arab money to back it up.

And as for the 'attack is best' approach, City scored more and conceded less than us last season, and that delta is only going to increase this season.

The only point worth making out this entire farrago is that we have a shite defence and unless it improves and we concede fewer goals, we'll win fuck all
 
Pretty much. It's gotten to the stage where it's that fucking obvious. Klopp isn't going to budge on the way he plays, so the only way to compensate for that and see a decrease in the GA, is to buy better players. End of. No amount of compromise, coaching or crossing our fingers and hoping current players suddenly learn how to defend, will remedy that.

I'd say at the moment that Matip, Clyne and Robertson (and that's with a huge amount of blind faith mostly) are the only ones who are worth persevering with. TAA and Gomez get a reprieve because of age and potential, but the rest can go.

We need two centre halves and possibly another fullback, a reliable keeper and a DM. That's pretty much the diamond 4 in the defensive half, which more or less tells you the state we're in defensively.
 
Why should he budge on the way we play?We knew what we were getting when we hired him.It will either work or it won't and at this point it's far too early to judge.We were hardly contenders when he arrived,not even for a CL spot,why should we expect to be now when he's been here such a short time.He has improved the players we have at the front end,we are way more dnagerous with Salah and Mane than we have been since Suarez left.That and the improved build up play is down to him.Sure he hasn't improved every area of the pitch but give the guy a chance,he did try to get Van Dijk and Robertson may yet prove to be a very good buy.Where he has got his players in we are playing good stuff and its exciting to watch.I give him credit for that and time to put the rest right.Expectations that he will win anything this season are impatient and that is reasonable but not realistic.A top four finish will be enough to continue building.His system is not going to be perfect over night.To say he's never won anything with it is just a stupid lie as everybody and his uncle knows he has.Twice.To say he'll need better players here to win stuff is true but it can't happen overnight which in this context means not in two or three transfer windows.When good players are available he should get them but when they are not its just tough.Whether we think a certain good player being available means we should get him is irrelevant if Klopp doesn' t think he fits for whatever reason.Give him time to get it right.For me that means three or four seasons.
 
Because a good manager will get the most of what he's got and adapt his thinking accordingly. It's no good boasting a brilliant attack record if you're repeatedly undone at the end through a sheer unwillingness to try to compensate. As it is, defensively we haven't improved one bit. Stubborness is what got Rafa and Houllier fired, in the end. If he'd coached some organisation into us, it would be a start, to not even do that is just ridiculous.
 
He is getting the most out of what he has got.To the best of his ability and within the framework of his system.You dont really believe that he isnt busting his ass to improve things and get the players to be more effective.You want more orgnization and security in the way we play but there is a play off between that and the fluidity and freedom of expression we have in attack.Ged and Rafa never managed to square that circle and release the creative energies of a free flowing attack.And Klopp may not manage to give us the defensive solidity of those defensively disciplined teams.Let's see when he gets his Sami\Carra partnership in place whether it is at least enough to give the attack the chance it needs to win.To be fair I think he also needs to have another go at replacing Ming and spend a bit more this time.
 
Never mind the fact that citeh result distorts our goals against which is being used by our own "fans" to beat the manager up

If you take that excuse and add in Hansern's favourite 'individual mistakes' one you could probably argue Klopp's system is brilliant defensively because we've never conceded a goal under him.
 
Never mind the fact that citeh result distorts our goals against which is being used by our own "fans" to beat the manager up

Take the City match out of it and we are looking at 13 goals conceded and two clean sheets in nine games. City, on the other hand, have conceded three goals and have five clean sheets from eight games.
 
And yet, if mane would have got to the ball a second earlier a couple of weeks ago we might be ahead of Citeh now.

Not sure that really follows. We were on top but took none of our chances while he was on the pitch. Meanwhile, City split us open with a fairly simple piece of play for Aguero's goal before Mané's sending off.

Aside from Sane's second, each one of City's goals could be attributed to poor defending. Mané was unable to stop Watford scoring three, or Sevilla scoring two.
 
To be fair to Klopp, we actually did change our game plan towards the end of last season and managed to grind out a series of wins in tight away games when it mattered most.
 
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