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If Ancelotti wins the title.....

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T

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Can we put to bed the stupid fucking myth that managers need time and a huge pot of cash to win the PL?


-he will have inherited an aging, trophy starved squad that finished 3rd last year - and hasn't won the league in 3 attempts

-He spent a pittance last summer (Zhirkov)

-he's brand new to the league, its ways and 'systems'




I wont bother to further cement this shit argument and mention Wenger also won the League and Cup double in his first attempt either.....Actually, on second thoughts, I will.
 
It really fucking annoys me how some posters on this boards seems to frolick in our misery.

Chelsea's won the Premiership within the last three years not 15 and had a team full of £30M-players at his disposal from the of. Ancelotti took over a team full of winners Rafa didn't.

Do you even think before you make these kind of posts?
 
[quote author=KHL link=topic=39479.msg1075756#msg1075756 date=1269421260]
It really fucking annoys me how some posters on this boards seems to frolick in our misery.

Chelsea's won the Premiership within the last three years not 15 and had a team full of £30M-players at his disposal from the of. Ancelotti took over a team full of winners Rafa didn't.

Do you even think before you make these kind of posts?

[/quote]


Coming from the Grand Whopper of Posters, I take that as a compliment?
 
That "ageing, trophy starved squad" might have finished third last year (with 83 points) but they had also finished 2nd the two previous seasons, and won it the two seasons prior to that. They also won the FA Cup last season.

Their squad is probably the most expensive squad ever assembled in England (Man City will doubtless soon trump them) so to argue that Ancelotti hasn't needed a huge pot of cash to be currently third doesn't hold much currency - he's inheriting a squad of huge depth, packed with expensively acquired players. More still, spunking 18m on a back-up left back (Zhirkov) is something we could only dream of doing.

Wenger aside (I am a huge fan), recent winners of the Premiership have outspent their rivals considerably. I've finally lost patience with Rafa but to disregard the financial spending power of todays premiership rivals for any manager of Liverpool is ridiculous.
 
[quote author=Terrier link=topic=39479.msg1075750#msg1075750 date=1269420883]
Can we put to bed the stupid fucking myth that managers need time and a huge pot of cash to win the PL?


-he will have inherited an aging, trophy starved squad that finished 3rd last year - and hasn't won the league in 3 attempts

-He spent a pittance last summer (Zhirkov)

-he's brand new to the league, its ways and 'systems'




I wont bother to further cement this shit argument and mention Wenger also won the League and Cup double in his first attempt either.....Actually, on second thoughts, I will.



[/quote]

Oh yeah, Ancelloti's inexperienced and his squad doesn't look like the feckin' Harlem Globetrotters of football who are paid almost 50% more than ours.

And Wenger's won fuck all for years but we can discount that because they've got a lovely stadium and play tippy-tappy.

Now you can make a comparison with Fergie, who joined an ailing club and took 6 feckin' years to get going (and nearly got the sack) before his patience and hard work paid off.

And that's not a myth.
 
[quote author=Terrier link=topic=39479.msg1075759#msg1075759 date=1269421596]
[quote author=KHL link=topic=39479.msg1075756#msg1075756 date=1269421260]
It really fucking annoys me how some posters on this boards seems to frolick in our misery.

Chelsea's won the Premiership within the last three years not 15 and had a team full of £30M-players at his disposal from the of. Ancelotti took over a team full of winners Rafa didn't.

Do you even think before you make these kind of posts?

[/quote]


Coming from the Grand Whopper of Posters, I take that as a compliment?
[/quote]
Really don't.
 
So basicly, if Ancelotti wins the title in his first shot, people will simply dismiss his accomplishment and point out:

-having a better squad (that hasn't won the league for 3 years)

-has unimaginable riches (that he didn't spend)

-has a huge wage bill (*cough* Leeds United)




interesting.
 
[quote author=Terrier link=topic=39479.msg1075768#msg1075768 date=1269422440]
So basicly, if Ancelotti wins the title in his first shot, people will simply dismiss his accomplishment and point out:

-having a better squad (that hasn't won the league for 3 years) Close 3rd, very close 2nd (managed by Avram fucking Grant), close 2nd in the last three seasons. The depth of squad at Chelsea is probably incomparable to their rivals

-has unimaginable riches (that he didn't spend) Chelsea still spent more than Man utd/Arsenal/Liverpool last summer

-has a huge wage bill (*cough* Leeds United) They do have a huge wage bill.

I doubt anyone would "dismiss" the achievement (although it would suit you to say so), but it wouldn't be as impressive as, say, Wenger winning the title with an inexpensively assembled, well coached young squad. Ancelotti would deserve praise for getting his team over the winning line (something his immediate predecessors couldn't do) and more so for winning the title in his first season here.

Should Rafa got to Madrid in the summer and win La Liga next year with Ronaldo, Kaka et al, do you not think the quality and sheer wealth of the squad he inherits will be a factor in that?






interesting.



[/quote]
 
I don't disagree with your principal point - that managers don't NECESSARILY need time and lots of money to win the league - but your back-up argument is pretty weak in all sorts of ways. The most obvious being that he hasn't won the league, and probably won't win anything at all, which will lead to him being sacked at the end of the season. Which would suggest, above all, the inadvisability of changing your manager every season. If Chelsea had stuck with Mourinho (or even one other, very good manager) for the past three years, I don't think United would be about to win their fourth consecutive title.
 
[quote author=KHL link=topic=39479.msg1075756#msg1075756 date=1269421260]
It really fucking annoys me how some posters on this boards seems to frolick in our misery.

Chelsea's won the Premiership within the last three years not 15 and had a team full of £30M-players at his disposal from the of. Ancelotti took over a team full of winners Rafa didn't.

Do you even think before you make these kind of posts?

[/quote]

^^^


I wonder if Abramovich is still prepared to plough in the cash for the Chavs? I think he'll need to looking at the age's of some of their key performers.
 
you are using the example of the two time champion, with argubly the best squad in the league, who finished in the lowly position of third (their lowest position for years) as an example of a manager gaining instant success and the reason we should do it?

fucking HELL!!
 
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=39479.msg1075790#msg1075790 date=1269427327]
I don't disagree with your principal point - that managers don't NECESSARILY need time and lots of money to win the league - but your back-up argument is pretty weak in all sorts of ways. The most obvious being that he hasn't won the league, and probably won't win anything at all, which will lead to him being sacked at the end of the season. Which would suggest, above all, the inadvisability of changing your manager every season. If Chelsea had stuck with Mourinho (or even one other, very good manager) for the past three years, I don't think United would be about to win their fourth consecutive title.
[/quote]

This.
 
With Chelsea obviously being the perfect example of a piss-weak squad.

As BM said, the principle is fair enough, though it's only really been done with a squad that's already VERY strong in recent years.

Benitez has failed, few could argue against that 5 years down the line, but please don't try to draw comparisons between what Chelsea have achieved this season and and Rafa's failings.

Rafa's fucked up on his rebuilding process, Ancelotti is a World Class manager with a ready made World Class squad.
 
This thread is pointless; as Chelsea isnt going to win the title.

The only thing this thread has accomplished is to give the apologists more fodder with which to gloss over Rafa's failure.
 
[quote author=Terrier link=topic=39479.msg1075768#msg1075768 date=1269422440]
So basicly, if Ancelotti wins the title in his first shot, people will simply dismiss his accomplishment and point out:

-having a better squad (that hasn't won the league for 3 years)

-has unimaginable riches (that he didn't spend)

-has a huge wage bill (*cough* Leeds United)




interesting.



[/quote]

I would argue that the current Chelsea squad has underachieved under it's last few managers. A better manager than Avram may well have taken them to the title, and even an excellent stint from Hiddink wasn't enough to rescue the season from Scolari's comparatively poor start.

Had they got a quality manager in a couple of seasons ago and allowed him to settle in, they may well have achieved more success than they have. After all, their squad is as strong as anyone's.
 
[quote author=Terrier link=topic=39479.msg1075759#msg1075759 date=1269421596]
[quote author=KHL link=topic=39479.msg1075756#msg1075756 date=1269421260]
It really fucking annoys me how some posters on this boards seems to frolick in our misery.

Chelsea's won the Premiership within the last three years not 15 and had a team full of £30M-players at his disposal from the of. Ancelotti took over a team full of winners Rafa didn't.

Do you even think before you make these kind of posts?

[/quote]


Coming from the Grand Whopper of Posters, I take that as a compliment?
[/quote]

You're a bigger whopper in my opinion.
 
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=39479.msg1075835#msg1075835 date=1269438332]
This thread is pointless; as Chelsea isnt going to win the title.

The only thing this thread has accomplished is to give the apologists more fodder with which to gloss over Rafa's failure.


[/quote]

Unlike the assassins who believe that everything wrong at the club is down to Rafa. Lets try and be a little bit realistic eh? First its the RCDNW's and now its the "apologists". You make it sound like the "apologists" are keeping Rafa in a job. You know that's rubbish.

How about the vast majority who can actually accept that the reality of the problem is somewhere in the middle. Its not all Rafa's fault.
 
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=39479.msg1075837#msg1075837 date=1269438607]
I would argue that the current Chelsea squad has underachieved under it's last few managers. A better manager than Avram may well have taken them to the title, and even an excellent stint from Hiddink wasn't enough to rescue the season from Scolari's comparatively poor start.

Had they got a quality manager in a couple of seasons ago and allowed him to settle in, they may well have achieved more success than they have. After all, their squad is as strong as anyone's.
[/quote]

I actually think Grant did well to take over a world-class but somewhat dysfunctional squad and come as close as he did to turning a historic (for Chelsea) double. He should have been given the following season.
 
[quote author=Spionkop69 link=topic=39479.msg1075991#msg1075991 date=1269461441]
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=39479.msg1075835#msg1075835 date=1269438332]
This thread is pointless; as Chelsea isnt going to win the title.

The only thing this thread has accomplished is to give the apologists more fodder with which to gloss over Rafa's failure.


[/quote]

Unlike the assassins who believe that everything wrong at the club is down to Rafa. Lets try and be a little bit realistic eh? First its the RCDNW's and now its the "apologists". You make it sound like the "apologists" are keeping Rafa in a job. You know that's rubbish.

How about the vast majority who can actually accept that the reality of the problem is somewhere in the middle. Its not all Rafa's fault.
[/quote]

I can't think of a single poster on here who hasn't stated that Rafa has made a number of mistakes. It just seems that whoever isn't willing to say that they want Rafa to fuck off, is automatically labelled a RCDNW/Apologist.
 
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=39479.msg1076014#msg1076014 date=1269463385]
[quote author=Spionkop69 link=topic=39479.msg1075991#msg1075991 date=1269461441]
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=39479.msg1075835#msg1075835 date=1269438332]
This thread is pointless; as Chelsea isnt going to win the title.

The only thing this thread has accomplished is to give the apologists more fodder with which to gloss over Rafa's failure.


[/quote]

Unlike the assassins who believe that everything wrong at the club is down to Rafa. Lets try and be a little bit realistic eh? First its the RCDNW's and now its the "apologists". You make it sound like the "apologists" are keeping Rafa in a job. You know that's rubbish.

How about the vast majority who can actually accept that the reality of the problem is somewhere in the middle. Its not all Rafa's fault.
[/quote]

I can't think of a single poster on here who hasn't stated that Rafa has made a number of mistakes. It just seems that whoever isn't willing to say that they want Rafa to fuck off, is automatically labelled a RCDNW/Apologist.
[/quote]

Nail on head.
 
[quote author=darkstarexodus link=topic=39479.msg1076011#msg1076011 date=1269462930]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=39479.msg1075837#msg1075837 date=1269438607]
I would argue that the current Chelsea squad has underachieved under it's last few managers. A better manager than Avram may well have taken them to the title, and even an excellent stint from Hiddink wasn't enough to rescue the season from Scolari's comparatively poor start.

Had they got a quality manager in a couple of seasons ago and allowed him to settle in, they may well have achieved more success than they have. After all, their squad is as strong as anyone's.
[/quote]

I actually think Grant did well to take over a world-class but somewhat dysfunctional squad and come as close as he did to turning a historic (for Chelsea) double. He should have been given the following season.
[/quote]

Oh come on. They stuttered their way to second with very little direction. I don't think any of the Chelsea players took him that seriously. It was precisely because they had a world class squad that they went so close. A better manager would have taken them the extra mile.
 
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=39479.msg1076022#msg1076022 date=1269463996]
[quote author=darkstarexodus link=topic=39479.msg1076011#msg1076011 date=1269462930]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=39479.msg1075837#msg1075837 date=1269438607]
I would argue that the current Chelsea squad has underachieved under it's last few managers. A better manager than Avram may well have taken them to the title, and even an excellent stint from Hiddink wasn't enough to rescue the season from Scolari's comparatively poor start.

Had they got a quality manager in a couple of seasons ago and allowed him to settle in, they may well have achieved more success than they have. After all, their squad is as strong as anyone's.
[/quote]

I actually think Grant did well to take over a world-class but somewhat dysfunctional squad and come as close as he did to turning a historic (for Chelsea) double. He should have been given the following season.
[/quote]

Oh come on. They stuttered their way to second with very little direction. I don't think any of the Chelsea players took him that seriously. It was precisely because they had a world class squad that they went so close. A better manager would have taken them the extra mile.
[/quote]

Still think he did well. Scolari didn't do as well the following season. Hiddink couldn't do any better at rescuing Scolari's start than Grant did rescuing Jose's start. Ancelotti has yet to do better this season.
 
Grant did well relative to his ability but ultimately wasn't good enough. We're kind of arguing at cross-purposes now though. My point was that if they'd got a quality manager in after Jose and stuck with him then they'd likely have experienced greater success than they have done with a succession of managers who aren't quite good enough. I guess it remains to be seen whether Ancelotti fits the bill in that respect. If the happy clapping Russian has any sense he'll give him more than a season to prove himself.
 
Wenger proved you don't need time if you are a great manager.

And this season he is proving you can lose your best striker and still mount a challenge.

I'd love to see Arsenal win it (anything but Utd) and maybe just maybe it would show all this talk about needed lots of money would stop.
 
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=39479.msg1076037#msg1076037 date=1269465039]
Grant did well relative to his ability but ultimately wasn't good enough. We're kind of arguing at cross-purposes now though. My point was that if they'd got a quality manager in after Jose and stuck with him then they'd likely have experienced greater success than they have done with a succession of managers who aren't quite good enough. I guess it remains to be seen whether Ancelotti fits the bill in that respect. If the happy clapping Russian has any sense he'll give him more than a season to prove himself.
[/quote]

I'm not saying Grant was ultimately good enough but I think he should have been given at least the start of the following season, seeing as Chelsea performed better than most expected under him.

Chelsea have been triggerhappy the past couple years and not to their benefit.
 
[quote author=Spionkop69 link=topic=39479.msg1075991#msg1075991 date=1269461441]
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=39479.msg1075835#msg1075835 date=1269438332]
This thread is pointless; as Chelsea isnt going to win the title.

The only thing this thread has accomplished is to give the apologists more fodder with which to gloss over Rafa's failure.


[/quote]

Unlike the assassins who believe that everything wrong at the club is down to Rafa. Lets try and be a little bit realistic eh? First its the RCDNW's and now its the "apologists". You make it sound like the "apologists" are keeping Rafa in a job. You know that's rubbish.

How about the vast majority who can actually accept that the reality of the problem is somewhere in the middle. Its not all Rafa's fault.
[/quote]


If you've read my posts, John; you'd see that I have no love for our owners..I'd love them to be gone..but perhaps unlike 'the vast majority' I feel that Rafa's failures make him accountable..and I don't see a need for a litany of excuses to justify them.

I'm not going to celebrate when he's sacked, I personally feel he's done his best for us.

Bu he's failed, and there's no point glossing over that.

You're ight about one thing tho; it isn't the apologists keeping him in a job.

It's our useless owners; and it's actually quite ironic.

The apologists all absolve Rafa of blame and place it at the 'the fucking Yanks' (TM) door-step.

But they're the exact reason he still has his job.
 
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=39479.msg1076014#msg1076014 date=1269463385]
[quote author=Spionkop69 link=topic=39479.msg1075991#msg1075991 date=1269461441]
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=39479.msg1075835#msg1075835 date=1269438332]
This thread is pointless; as Chelsea isnt going to win the title.

The only thing this thread has accomplished is to give the apologists more fodder with which to gloss over Rafa's failure.


[/quote]

Unlike the assassins who believe that everything wrong at the club is down to Rafa. Lets try and be a little bit realistic eh? First its the RCDNW's and now its the "apologists". You make it sound like the "apologists" are keeping Rafa in a job. You know that's rubbish.

How about the vast majority who can actually accept that the reality of the problem is somewhere in the middle. Its not all Rafa's fault.
[/quote]

I can't think of a single poster on here who hasn't stated that Rafa has made a number of mistakes. It just seems that whoever isn't willing to say that they want Rafa to fuck off, is automatically labelled a RCDNW/Apologist.
[/quote]


Rafa has 'made a number of mistakes'?

I'm sure similar was heard on board the Titanic.
 
The owners would love to get rid of Rafa but it would cost them 20m quid to do so.

And with NO CL money, a pending debt crisis waiting to emerge, it's pretty obvious why they haven't taken action.

If Rafa wasn't such a wanker, he would resign and let us try to repair the mess with whatever money we can scrabble together.
 
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