Greatest Liverpool Manager Ever

[KopKing]

It's widely said that Shankly is the Greatest Liverpool manager, he built the modern day Liverpool, built several great sides and took us out of the old 2nd Division. Not only did he have fantastic football achievements he was highly charismatic and engendered love and goodwill from the Liverpool faithful, unprecedented until now.

Paisley however did take it further, in purely footballing terms, he achieved so much more than Shanks and it was his achievements and it is his teams that were regarded as one of the greatest ever in terms of legend and longevity in the same way that Real Madrid, AC Milan were, or nowadays Barca.

Then there's the King. He took it on and never had the opportunity of taking his team into Europe but won multiple titles as manager including player-manager, which is totally unheard of now, and built arguably one of the greatest ever Liverpool teams.

If KK wins the league in the 'Second Coming' after a 20+ year drought, could he be regarded as the greatest ever manager? Does Paisley have just cause to carry that title?

 

[Judge Jules]

I love the King and I championed his return earlier than most, but even I wouldn't put him alongside those other two giants.

The choice between Shanks and Paisley is moot. In terms of trophies it would have to be Paisley, but my vote goes to William James Shankly of Glenbuck, Ayrshire who - albeit assisted by Paisley among others - was chiefly responsible for the club being in a position to go on and win as much as it has over the years. The ideas were his, the driving personality was his, the whole concept was his and all of us, Paisley included IMO, have been standing on his shoulders ever since.

 

[the count]

I agree with all of that JJ and if memory serves me right I was one of the few along with yourself who wanted Kenny as manager last summer.

However I am positive that there are still some glorious chapters to be written in the king's managerial reign at Liverpool.

If he can regain for us the position we held during his previous reign, then there may well be a very compelling argument for him being not only being our greatest ever player, but our greatest ever manager as well.

 

[Spionkop69]

Shankly - for starting it
Paisley - for reinventing it and starting the next dynasty
Dalglish - well for just being Kenny really

 

[Modo]

Hodgson - for being a face rubbing old fart.

 

[Mersey86]

Shankly the greatest - and has to be close to being the greatest manager of any team - a genius. Bob Paisley then built on Shanks' foundations and brought consistency and a huge weight of trophies - he has to be up there with Shanks, but definitely second place on the podium.
It should be remembered of Kenny that he produced the best attacking team we've ever had - using the Rush money on Aldridge, Beardsley and Barnes, he gave us a new dimension and a couple of memorable years. Hillsborough happened and Kenny understandably let things go a little. That up-and-down has been repeated since. Houllier and Benitez have both stood on the verge of the immortality a league title would confer on a Liverpool manager - Houllier took us there based on a solid defensive foundation, but seemed unable to take that next step, something compounded by health issues. Rafa too was in touching distance - and could have made it were it not for late Macheda goals against Villa relieving the growing pressure we were building. A bad summer and behind-the-scenes nonsense with Hicks and Gillett and Rafa's star too faded.
If Kenny were to succeed were they failed, he would indeed place himself on a pedestal, but with some distance still to cover to attain the level of Shankly and Paisley.

 

[Dylan]

Paisley. End of. And can we stop calling Kenny KK?

 

[LeTallecWiz]

[quote author=Spionkop69 link=topic=46293.msg1372617#msg1372617 date=1312120419]
Shankly - for starting it
Paisley - for reinventing it and starting the next dynasty
Dalglish - well for just being Kenny really
[/quote]

It's kind of 'disrespectful' to Tom Watson to say Shanks started it. Shanks build the Liverpool that dominated footy for two decades, but Watson made Liverpool a 'name'.

 

[Judge Jules]

I'm afraid I think that overrates him, Wizzy. We were midtable in what's now the Championship when Shanks arrived.

 

[Judge Jules]

[quote author=the count link=topic=46293.msg1372612#msg1372612 date=1312119526]
I agree with all of that JJ and if memory serves me right I was one of the few along with yourself who wanted Kenny as manager last summer.

However I am positive that there are still some glorious chapters to be written in the king's managerial reign at Liverpool.

If he can regain for us the position we held during his previous reign, then there may well be a very compelling argument for him being not only being our greatest ever player, but our greatest ever manager as well.
[/quote]

Likewise agree with all of that, count. My vote for Shanks won't be diverted easily, but it'll be a discussion I'm looking forward to already. 8)

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

It has to be Paisley for me because of the silverware he won.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=46293.msg1372673#msg1372673 date=1312131175]
I'm afraid I think that overrates him, Wizzy. We were midtable in what's now the Championship when Shanks arrived.
[/quote]

Before Watson, who knew of the team?

 

[Judge Jules]

Everyone and no-one, I suspect. What I mean is that people knew LFC existed (we had won the odd title and got to the FA Cup Final once or twice) but I doubt many outside Liverpool gave it a second thought.

 

[Dylan]

[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=46293.msg1372666#msg1372666 date=1312129796]
[quote author=Spionkop69 link=topic=46293.msg1372617#msg1372617 date=1312120419]
Shankly - for starting it
Paisley - for reinventing it and starting the next dynasty
Dalglish - well for just being Kenny really
[/quote]

It's kind of 'disrespectful' to Tom Watson to say Shanks started it. Shanks build the Liverpool that dominated footy for two decades, but Watson made Liverpool a 'name'.
[/quote]

Having an LFC history book is very worthwhile but you may be the first supporter I've ever heard not answer Paisley, Shankly or Dalglish to this question.

 

[spider-Neil]

it's bob, what shanks did was incredible but bob took it to the next level.

 

[Judge Jules]

Paisley's record is extraordinary BUT he had a heck of a launching-pad to start with. Shanks built that launching-pad, and did so out of practically nothing.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

[quote author=Dylan link=topic=46293.msg1372716#msg1372716 date=1312140590]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=46293.msg1372666#msg1372666 date=1312129796]
[quote author=Spionkop69 link=topic=46293.msg1372617#msg1372617 date=1312120419]
Shankly - for starting it
Paisley - for reinventing it and starting the next dynasty
Dalglish - well for just being Kenny really
[/quote]

It's kind of 'disrespectful' to Tom Watson to say Shanks started it. Shanks build the Liverpool that dominated footy for two decades, but Watson made Liverpool a 'name'.
[/quote]

Having an LFC history book is very worthwhile but you may be the first supporter I've ever heard not answer Paisley, Shankly or Dalglish to this question.
[/quote]

I never said Watson was better than Shanks or Paisley, but he put Liverpool on the map imo as a team that would be reckoned with. Back to back league titles etc ... He managed some of the legends that few alive today probably saw ...

Answering the question however, I'd put the 1st two you mentioned as top 2 (it's a coin flip tbh) - but Watson, imo, is ahead of Daglish (and that will change after this year, when Kenny wins #19)

 

[Dylan]

[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=46293.msg1372758#msg1372758 date=1312144804]

I never said Watson was better than Shanks or Paisley, but he put Liverpool on the map imo as a team that would be reckoned with. Back to back league titles etc ... He managed some of the legends that few alive today probably saw ...

Answering the question however, I'd put the 1st two you mentioned as top 2 (it's a coin flip tbh) - but Watson, imo, is ahead of Daglish (and that will change after this year, when Kenny wins #19)
[/quote]

Point taken. But i still find your answer bizarre. Tell us more about Watson...but promise not to look at your book...

 

[LeTallecWiz]

[quote author=Dylan link=topic=46293.msg1372759#msg1372759 date=1312145226]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=46293.msg1372758#msg1372758 date=1312144804]

I never said Watson was better than Shanks or Paisley, but he put Liverpool on the map imo as a team that would be reckoned with. Back to back league titles etc ... He managed some of the legends that few alive today probably saw ...

Answering the question however, I'd put the 1st two you mentioned as top 2 (it's a coin flip tbh) - but Watson, imo, is ahead of Daglish (and that will change after this year, when Kenny wins #19)
[/quote]

Point taken. But i still find your answer bizarre. Tell us more about Watson...but promise not to look at your book...
[/quote]

Ha ha - does that mean if I say players like Longworth and Raisbeck should be in the all time great Liverpool teams, you'll mock me too? 🙂

But I'll give it a go (Maybe Judge, who lived during Tom's time will help me if I'm wrong! 😉) - Watson came to us from Sunderland in the late 1890s. Within a few years, had them challenging for the title before winning the 1st Liverpool title in 1900. Won it again a few years later (1905-06). As I said, the first manager to ensure we were taken seriously as a footy team. Still no Shanks or Paisley but then again, there's not many that are.

[I was wrong btw originally - he didn't win the league back to back (I just confirmed dates and I was wrong)]

 

[Whaddapie]

[quote author=Dylan link=topic=46293.msg1372759#msg1372759 date=1312145226]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=46293.msg1372758#msg1372758 date=1312144804]

I never said Watson was better than Shanks or Paisley, but he put Liverpool on the map imo as a team that would be reckoned with. Back to back league titles etc ... He managed some of the legends that few alive today probably saw ...

Answering the question however, I'd put the 1st two you mentioned as top 2 (it's a coin flip tbh) - but Watson, imo, is ahead of Daglish (and that will change after this year, when Kenny wins #19)
[/quote]

Point taken. But i still find your answer bizarre. Tell us more about Watson...but promise not to look at your book...
[/quote]

That's two little digs about Avy learning about the history of his favourite football team and educating himself in such a way that he actually has an answer (and reasoning to back it up) other than the normal stuff that any old "fan" could trot out... What on earth is the problem with that?

 

[Dylan]

[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=46293.msg1372809#msg1372809 date=1312165201]

That's two little digs about Avy learning about the history of his favourite football team and educating himself in such a way that he actually has an answer (and reasoning to back it up) other than the normal stuff that any old "fan" could trot out... What on earth is the problem with that?
[/quote]

I thought it was an odd answer but I didn't mean to cause offence. Given some of the barbs that are traded on here, was it really so offensive?

 

[Richey]

No. LTW didn't appear to take offence.

In terms of the original question I'll be sticking with Shankly onwards and would say Shankly first, Paisley second and Dalglish third.

 

[Judge Jules]

[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=46293.msg1372764#msg1372764 date=1312147185]
[quote author=Dylan link=topic=46293.msg1372759#msg1372759 date=1312145226]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=46293.msg1372758#msg1372758 date=1312144804]

I never said Watson was better than Shanks or Paisley, but he put Liverpool on the map imo as a team that would be reckoned with. Back to back league titles etc ... He managed some of the legends that few alive today probably saw ...

Answering the question however, I'd put the 1st two you mentioned as top 2 (it's a coin flip tbh) - but Watson, imo, is ahead of Daglish (and that will change after this year, when Kenny wins #19)
[/quote]

Point taken. But i still find your answer bizarre. Tell us more about Watson...but promise not to look at your book...
[/quote]

Ha ha - does that mean if I say players like Longworth and Raisbeck should be in the all time great Liverpool teams, you'll mock me too? 🙂

But I'll give it a go (Maybe Judge, who lived during Tom's time will help me if I'm wrong! 😉) - Watson came to us from Sunderland in the late 1890s. Within a few years, had them challenging for the title before winning the 1st Liverpool title in 1900. Won it again a few years later (1905-06). As I said, the first manager to ensure we were taken seriously as a footy team. Still no Shanks or Paisley but then again, there's not many that are.

[I was wrong btw originally - he didn't win the league back to back (I just confirmed dates and I was wrong)]
[/quote]

Yeah, old Tom was a personal friend, you cheeky shlemiel. ;D

The point on which we differed earlier was whether it's appropriate to say Shanks started it all, and I have to say I still think it is. I say that because, while it's true that Tom Watson won us our first title, that success didn't survive his time as manager, so to me he didn't really start anything. We melted back into relative obscurity after he went, and it wasn't until Shanks was appointed that we took our place among the greats of the game.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

I can't argue with this Jules, you altekaka! :laugh:

But, why I think Watson is so critical is that he gave Liverpool an identity - which did last, though the success didn't. He made us winners, and got us to the FA Cup semis and finals. It was harder I think to build dynasties back then (as evident by how since 1970s, 4 teams have won the dominant majority of titles) - but the Shanks vs Watson debate is pointless as Shanks is (rightly) on a mountain top that I strongly doubt any manager in our history will ever reach (unless Kenny does something phenomenal over the next 5-10 years).

 

[Judge Jules]

Which he will. Then we can debate whether it's enough to win him top spot. 8)

 

[Richey]

I just took a look at the games/wins stats and Kenny Dalglish actually comes top of that (this is based solely on his first stint) with 60%.

I know these kind of figures are pretty meaningless as they don't take circumstances or any other factors in but still found it interesting.

Shanks achieved about 52% wins but given that he was in charge for a many more games than anyone else (783 games. Second is LTW's favourite Tom Watson then its right down to Bob Paisley on 535) and given where we were when he took over that is an impressive figure.

 

[jexykrodic]

The best football I've seen played was under Kenny Dalglish.

The most disappontment I've felt was when Kenny Dalglish left.

The most relief I've felt was at the return of Kenny Dalglish.

Er, Kenny Dalglish.

 

[Oncy]

Poor old Joe 'forgotten' Fagan..
Two years in charge, won a League and cup double and the European cup, plus signed John Wark, Gary Gillespie, Jan Molby ONLY BLOODY JAN MOLBY, Jim Beglin and Paul Walsh.

Joe Fagans Liverpool was my first Liverpool. His first season in charge is the first season i remember and we were as good as any Liverpool side ever in my opinion. He was 62 when given the job and Heysel took it out of him, but for 2 years we were a side of ridiculousness and im not even sure our 74, 78, 86 vintages would have matched Joe's Liverpool.

In answer to the question, i think it has to be Shankly. Simply stated it was he who built all of this.
If Fergie retires and another manager takes his place and wins more, it wont make him a better manager, because the club was in the position it was in because of what came before.

Paisley built a side that shat trophies and Fagan and Dalglish continued that but it was Shankly who put us in the position to do that whilst winning trophies and rebuilding the side..........

Actually forget all that its Paisley.

 

[Richey]

I know what you mean about Fagan. I remember another time when we did one of these threads and people were putting managers in order. Given that he won 3 trophies in his first season (I don't think Shankly, Paisley or Dalglish ever managed that did they?) he came absurdly low down in many people's lists.

 

[Whaddapie]

[quote author=Dylan link=topic=46293.msg1372817#msg1372817 date=1312178408]
[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=46293.msg1372809#msg1372809 date=1312165201]

That's two little digs about Avy learning about the history of his favourite football team and educating himself in such a way that he actually has an answer (and reasoning to back it up) other than the normal stuff that any old "fan" could trot out... What on earth is the problem with that?
[/quote]

I thought it was an odd answer but I didn't mean to cause offence. Given some of the barbs that are traded on here, was it really so offensive?
[/quote]

Not offensive, mate - Just the fact that you mentioned a history book twice came off a little strange to me... I mean, I don't remember Shanks personally, but, because of reading and learning about our history, I know of his greatness.

That's the only point I was making... Wasn't having a pop.