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Good or potentially good players playing in mediocre leagues

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Modo said:
First off what has Modo got to do with any of this?

Secondly, C. Ronaldo plays for a wank national team called Portugal. Lopsided league? He (and I hate to say this) almost single handedly won the premier league for Man U on at least one occasion. Other than that he was an integral part of Portugal's Euro 2004 team that made the final and the 2006 world cup team that got to the semi final. So he has done enough on the international stage imo.
Messi might not had any world cup joy with Argentina, but they did go to the final last year and almost won. OK, Messi's performances at the international level hasn't been stellar.

Thirdly, why the hell am I trying to defend Messi and Ronaldo? If you can't see that they're absolutely worldly and among the top 10 best players ever then you are (pardon my language) bonkers.

Wait wait wait....Ginola? Gino fucking la?
Juninho? Which Juninho? Pernambucano or the one who played for Boro?
Actually it doesn't matter. World class? You're having a laugh.
They were both entertaining players, top class players to be fair. But not world class imo.
Pernambucano could hit free kicks, that's about it. Little Juninho was a magician with the ball, but not that effective.
Gino, played for fucking Newcastle and won fuck all and what the fuck did he do for his national team except as Houllier would put it, cost them the chance to play in World cup 94.
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Your talking about world class players - who cares ? - players are there to entertain and I don't see that many great entertaining players these days spread evenly across the European leagues. All of the teams in Europe have a selection of boring shit all over the place.

As for C Ronaldo - I think he is utter first class utter boring shit, and to some extent Messi - neither of these players provide any sort of excitement they lack a kind of rough and toughness you could associate with the great players of the past as if they glide through games effortlessly - I find them both disgusting to watch, and rejoice when they fail at world cups. Juninhio - yes the one that was part of the world cup winning team of 2002, but was in the generation of players that did not en masse want to go and play for Madrid/Barca just coz they were a little talented. Ginola did entertain many people and he was never part of the French setup because a former manager of ours blamed him for failing to get them to the 94 world cup, kind of like the way I blame Gerrard for slipping and missing out on a title - which of course you and many others would like to selectively forget. But hey he is our SG.
 
@dantes have a look at Morons comments. Reading between the lines he considers Ginola a better player than Ronaldo and Messi. Moron considers Turan as a box-to-box midfielder. @moron Spanish teams have regularly out performed Epl teams thats why they have the best uefa champion league's coefficient.
 
redhorizon2 said:
@dantes have a look at Morons comments. Reading between the lines he considers Ginola a better player than Ronaldo and Messi. Moron considers Turan as a box-to-box midfielder. @moron Spanish teams have regularly out performed Epl teams thats why they have the best uefa champion league's coefficient.
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I did not say that Ginola was a better player than Messi or Ronaldo - although I am sure he would have benefited more if he was playing with a bunch of other players who work on the same wavelength as him. Moron considers Turan as a box to box midfielder ? - I did not mention Turan but he was a very good player for his country and team. There was a time when Spanish teams were not as predominant as they are now but they are helped by the fact that there two top teams seem to always end up with the best players in the world.

I don't have a problem admitting that Messi and Ronaldo are currently the best players in the world - but I do have an issue over their style and also consider a lack of quality defenders in world football having contributed to the number of goals they seem to score.
 
Messi or Ronaldo not world class?

Only someone so retarded that it puts human evolution back aeons would try to claim that. Especially, if the reason is because they don't entertain.
 
keniget said:
............. Maybe it's just because we're all too aware of every league now whereas in the past players elsewhere still had some mystique.
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Nail meet head.

I doubt there is any lack of world class players today compared to any other decade/era, it's just that nowadays we are inundated with facts, stats, goals and the errors every player makes whereas in the past it was highlights or only at major events (WC or EC). Those world-class players from previous eras also had their issues, we were just less aware of them.

To say nothing of course of the change in tactics, modern day fitness levels etc.
 
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moron said:
I did not say that Ginola was a better player than Messi or Ronaldo - although I am sure he would have benefited more if he was playing with a bunch of other players who work on the same wavelength as him. Moron considers Turan as a box to box midfielder ? - I did not mention Turan but he was a very good player for his country and team. There was a time when Spanish teams were not as predominant as they are now but they are helped by the fact that there two top teams seem to always end up with the best players in the world.

I don't have a problem admitting that Messi and Ronaldo are currently the best players in the world - but I do have an issue over their style and also consider a lack of quality defenders in world football having contributed to the number of goals they seem to score.
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@moron here's where you mention we need a box to box mf like Turan
http://www.sixcrazyminutes.com/index.php?threads/when-1-becomes-2.51629/#post-1150672
 
Laugh at me all you want but if you wanted to get any players that you believe could make a huge difference to us in any area of the pitch there is very little to chose from outside some of the players from barca/rmadrid.
 
moron said:
Your talking about world class players - who cares ? - players are there to entertain and I don't see that many great entertaining players these days spread evenly across the European leagues. All of the teams in Europe have a selection of boring shit all over the place.

As for C Ronaldo - I think he is utter first class utter boring shit, and to some extent Messi - neither of these players provide any sort of excitement they lack a kind of rough and toughness you could associate with the great players of the past as if they glide through games effortlessly - I find them both disgusting to watch, and rejoice when they fail at world cups. Juninhio - yes the one that was part of the world cup winning team of 2002, but was in the generation of players that did not en masse want to go and play for Madrid/Barca just coz they were a little talented. Ginola did entertain many people and he was never part of the French setup because a former manager of ours blamed him for failing to get them to the 94 world cup, kind of like the way I blame Gerrard for slipping and missing out on a title - which of course you and many others would like to selectively forget. But hey he is our SG.
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I totally understand that people find different things in football aesthetically pleasing, or exciting. I really enjoy seeing a thunderous tackle, and quite often re-watch that infamous mini-derby beauty by Flanagan, in which he sends an Everton player into orbit.

I also enjoy watching Real Madrid and Barcelona fail, and have no interest in how Argentina or Portugal fare at world cups, or any of their players.

But I don't understand the rest of this post. You find Ronaldo and Messi "boring" and lacking in the kind of excitement that Juninho and Ginola provided? How? What was the difference? They aren't quite as good as Ronaldo or Messi? They didn't win as much?

And what's Gerrard got to do with anything?

Please explain, moron
 
Wait, is this the same Moron who once linked Downing to Barca??

I do think he has a point hidden in there somewhere. RE : A lack of current world class players. It did seem that there was more world class players back in the days of Zidane and co. I'm not sure why he's mentioning David Ginola and some others though.
 
moron said:
Laugh at me all you want but if you wanted to get any players that you believe could make a huge difference to us in any area of the pitch there is very little to chose from outside some of the players from barca/rmadrid.
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There are plenty of players to choose from its just that we're a bit shit at choosing them. I wonder how Lovrens worked out for us?​
 
redhorizon2 said:
@dantes have a look at Morons comments. Reading between the lines he considers Ginola a better player than Ronaldo and Messi. Moron considers Turan as a box-to-box midfielder. @moron Spanish teams have regularly out performed Epl teams thats why they have the best uefa champion league's coefficient.
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Oh. Still I see no need to lay a foul tongue on him my friend. He's just being nostalgic, doesn't like watching modern football, then resents it when the little children get excited about Messi, so uses his greater knowledge of history to con them into thinking they're losers and never saw the true greats like he did. It would have sounded better had he been a bit older and could remember George Best, rather than David the hair Ginola.
 
dantes said:
Oh. Still I see no need to lay a foul tongue on him my friend. He's just being nostalgic, doesn't like watching modern football, then resents it when the little children get excited about Messi, so uses his greater knowledge of history to con them into thinking they're losers and never saw the true greats like he did. It would have sounded better had he been a bit older and could remember George Best, rather than David the hair Ginola.
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Never said a nasty word against him. What is different from years before is that romance is dying, as the number of teams in Europe that can compete is getting smaller. The Italian champions for 2015/2016 will be Juve, In Germany it will be BM, in Spain it will either be RM or Barca, in France it will be PSG.
 
redhorizon2 said:
Never said a nasty word against him. What is different from years before is that romance is dying, as the number of teams in Europe that can compete is getting smaller. The Italian champions for 2015/2016 will be Juve, In Germany it will be BM, in Spain it will either be RM or Barca, in France it will be PSG.
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No, that makes it more competitive. There are only a handful of world class players left, and they end up at Real or Barca, which leaves the rest of the teams around Europe to have a fair fight of it. None of us really have that much better players than anyone else.

Long gone are the days when we had Fowler up front and the other team had Dean Holdsworth, and so we expected to win, even demanded it. Now we have Benteke and they have Bony. What's the difference? Look how effortlessly Ings has slotted into the "level" of a supposedly big team. Case closed. We can spend as much as we like, but there's no difference between players on the market now, because they are mostly shit. We just spent £30m on Firmino. You may not remember it as clearly or as unemotionally as I do, but trust me, Firmino could not even lace Berger's boots. And Berger wasn't even that great of a player back then compared to who else was around.
 
dantes said:
No, that makes it more competitive. There are only a handful of world class players left, and they end up at Real or Barca, which leaves the rest of the teams around Europe to have a fair fight of it. None of us really have that much better players than anyone else.

Long gone are the days when we had Fowler up front and the other team had Dean Holdsworth, and so we expected to win, even demanded it. Now we have Benteke and they have Bony. What's the difference? Look how effortlessly Ings has slotted into the "level" of a supposedly big team. Case closed. We can spend as much as we like, but there's no difference between players on the market now, because they are mostly shit. We just spent £30m on Firmino. You may not remember it as clearly or as unemotionally as I do, but trust me, Firmino could not even lace Berger's boots. And Berger wasn't even that great of a player back then compared to who else was around.
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Exactly was about to post something similar yesterday.
Basically nowadays world class players are usually condensed into a few teams. Bayern, PSG, Madrid, Barca etc.
So I'd say that there's the same amount of world class players as before it just isn't as noticeable.
 
cloggypop said:
Surely there is always the same amount of world class players.
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So in that case the world class players may be the same amount as few decades ago, but apart from three or four of them, the rest are not much better than the average journeyman who comes ten a penny. That is the problem. We can spend a hundred times more than Stoke, but the players we'll end up with offer no discernible advantage compared to their players. So when we play them it's a coin flip.
 
Pretty much yeah. Law of diminishing returns applied to our money. Or something. Ask peterhague.
 
cloggypop said:
Stoke have got some pretty good players at the moment like.
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The idea should have been to keep them under us using psychological pressure and manipulation. Because they are cheaper and smaller, they should feel inferior to us and we can use that to win the game without actually having superior players. That was until Rodgers decided to hand them a 6 - 1 win. So now there is nothing.
 
dantes said:
So in that case the world class players may be the same amount as few decades ago, but apart from three or four of them, the rest are not much better than the average journeyman who comes ten a penny. That is the problem. We can spend a hundred times more than Stoke, but the players we'll end up with offer no discernible advantage compared to their players. So when we play them it's a coin flip.
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Thanks - that is how i also view the situation. Not much difference between our expensive buys and the jouneymen of other teams. I feel like we could get beaten in any game unless we are near our best.
 
So you're telling me if we signed Manuel Neuer, Thiago Silva, Iniesta and Lewandowski they wouldn't cut it in the BPL? As if! they're all world class players!! Iniesta is one of the best midfielders I've seen in a long time. And to say Messi isn't a joy to watch is damn right laughable! Did you see his "only football can make you feel like this" goal? Sheer brilliance! THE best player I've ever seen and I bet will ever see.
 
moron said:
Modo / redhorizon2 - I actually don't think Messi/Ronaldo are that great - I actually think that their lopsided league makes them look great. There have been great players in the last decade and the decade before that ... so on backwards. When I mean great players I mean players in all different positions who have made a significant contribution to the teams that they have played in and also on the international stage - with a high level of consistency. If we take the years from 1995 - 2005 we witnessed so many great players in world football:-

Defenders - of the likes of Canavaro, Nesta, Maldini, Marcel Desailly, Hierro, plus many more who were outstanding, it was a very defensive game in the 90's.

Attacking players who were consistently good include some of our very own in their prime but to name a few:-

Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Ronaldhinio, Romario, Henry , Bagio, Ibrahmovich, Shearer, Andriy Shevchenko , Fowler, Owen, Dennis Bergkamp, Zola, Davor Suker, Batistuta, Vieri, Alesandro, Raul

Wonderful midfield players:- - Viera, Keane, Gerrard, Cantona, Ginola, Kaka, Pirlo, Juninho, Mathaus, Figo, Zidanne, Figo, Redondo

The list could go on - but players that made a difference to teams who on their day were as good as any of their rivals. These days it seems like they are all just situated in fucking Madrid and Barcalona. Apologies for missing many who should be on that list - but I am sure many of you will agree with me that the players I have listed have given many of you great joy. Fuck me - what a shit era of football are we living in right now.
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There are equally as many great world class players today.
You say Shevchenko when he moved to Chelski he was shite, Ronaldo has just smashed Raul's all time goalscoreres record yes Raul was great just ronaldo is greater. Ibra is still world class to this day! Can't believe you haven't mentioned Xavi there as he's probably won more major honours than 90% of them. Other than that yes they were world class players. Today there are still many great players Lahm, Hummels, Kroos, Griezmann has potential Pogba, Vidal, Marchisio, Verratti, Pastore etc I don't see how you can say the standard of players has dropped maybe you're just to attached to the past....
 
dantes said:
No, that makes it more competitive. There are only a handful of world class players left, and they end up at Real or Barca, which leaves the rest of the teams around Europe to have a fair fight of it. None of us really have that much better players than anyone else.

Long gone are the days when we had Fowler up front and the other team had Dean Holdsworth, and so we expected to win, even demanded it. Now we have Benteke and they have Bony. What's the difference? Look how effortlessly Ings has slotted into the "level" of a supposedly big team. Case closed. We can spend as much as we like, but there's no difference between players on the market now, because they are mostly shit. We just spent £30m on Firmino. You may not remember it as clearly or as unemotionally as I do, but trust me, Firmino could not even lace Berger's boots. And Berger wasn't even that great of a player back then compared to who else was around.
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It was all going well until the Berger/Firmino thing.
 
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