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For Neil..

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Avmenon

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Rafa was sacked because the board felt that he wasn’t going to get us out of the mess he’d helped get us into.

Not because he'd finished 5th (or 7th rather) the season before.

Yes, I know, Neil.

That wasn’t Rafa’s fault. None of it.

It was the media who’d painted a horrid picture of Rafa, it’s not as if he used them to his own advantage when it suited him.

It was the Yanks fault who’d cut the funds for Rafa, it’s not as if he’d used the funds badly in buying shit players.

Yes, Neil..I know that
i.muchofthefundswererecouped/
ii.hedidntgethisfirsttargets/
iii.insertreasonhere

Those shit players he bought weren’t really bought by him, they were foisted upon him by the dastardly Parry and Co.

Right.

In addition, the players all let him down; it’s not as if he pushed out players he didn’t like, or played them in wrong positions or replaced good players with worse ones (how are we coming with the Spider Riise-rafa Theorem by the way?)

He did many good things for us, and his record will always be in credit.

But let’s not pretend there weren’t good reasons at the time to remove Rafa.

Would Rafa have been as bad as Hodgson?

Of course not.

But Rafa wasn’t going to fix the problems, and he’d continue to blame everyone but himself for the problems we had.

I’ll tell you this though; I’m terrified by the possible implications had Rafa been in charge whilst the legal shenanigans were going on.

Do you think he’d have stayed out of it?

Or do you think he’d have gotten involved and gone along with any position which strengthened his hand?

I also have a very strong suspicion that the presence of an entrenched obstinate manager would have put paid to any interest by potential buyers, particularly one like NESV which seems to have an extremely hands-on approach to sports management.

HOw do you think Rafa would have reacted to the comments made by John Henry regarding our transfers over the past few ytears?

Exactly.

The point is that Rafa was NOT sacked as a form of punishment, he was sacked because he'd helped get us into a mess...and many believed that not only would he have NOT fixed things, he mighthave made it worse.

NOw, I realise that this is a Rafa thread, and I've no doubt that there'll be some to take offence to this and my views.

Feel free to condemn my views, I'm past caring.

But at least people can choose to read them or not and the other threads can stay free.

Enjoy.

On a personal note, I thin k he was a grat manager, and I do miss him.

He was a very likeable perswon, and he level of depth he felt for this club was genuine.

In 2007 or 2008, I was one such poster who continually spoke out against sacking him because I was of the view that we couldnt have sacked him without getting in someone better.

Check my posts if anyone doesnt believe me.

But I do think that by 2010, he had to go..and we had to hope his replacement could fix things.

The fact that he hasnt, and probably wont, does NOT mean it was a mistake to sack him.
 
Lucky for us we brought in a "safe pair of hands" who think it needs to take a full overhaul bringing a top four squad to a top four finish.
 
Not really, but it's meant to stop the other one turning into a Rafa thread.

Which it already has.
 
As I said the other week I don't agree with getting rid of rafa or any asset at any club without having a firm and adequate replacement ready/available.

It's hard to say whether the last season was a blip or not, Rafa was always stubborn and always will be but I believed and still believe that if he were managing us now, our fortunes would be no worse off.

I also believe that the complete turmoil the club was in was the perfect vehicle for shipping out a scape-goat. If things hadn't turned sour with the yanks on a boardroom, manager, fan, economic level would Rafa have been booted regardless of finishing 7th I don't think so.

If Jose or anyone with a record of managing at the highest level and being successful replaced Rafa I'd have zero problems, that didn't happen and we swapped a stubborn, top class manager for an average manager.

It was like swapping a Lambo with a dodgy clutch for a brand new fiat punto.
 
this has been done a hundred time and is going to be done a hundred more times, mainly because at MOST only half of liverpool fan base wanted rafa gone. it wasn't like when gh was pushed out of the door where a large section of the fans wanted gh out, rafa had and has a lot of supporters. these threads are going to continue because every time someone comes out with, 'rafa had lost the plot' or 'rafa had lost the dressing room', or my personal favorite, 'rafa had to go' there are always going to be people that leap to rafa's defense.
 
Go on then.

Polish your shield and sharpen your sword.

This is what you fucking wanted, so go to it.

Or are you going to "leap to Rafa's defense" in every other thread on SCM?
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42522.msg1209437#msg1209437 date=1288613572]
'rafa had to go'
[/quote]

That is a valid opinion though. There is no need to challenge that aggressively.

I personally was mostly sat on the fence during his last season particularly given the ownership situation and the lack of stand-out alternatives, but things did start to come apart at the seams for Rafa towards the end and such a disastarous period - stability or no stability - normally leads to the sack. It's really not hard to justify the decision.

You only have to look at what happened to Rijkaard. He helped rebuild Barcelona and won big trophies, but was out on his ass because things started to fall apart a little bit.
 
seriously ave, you'd be better served flagging

'rafa had to go'
'rafa lost the dressing room'
'rafa lost the plot'

because I don't recall creating ONE rafa thread in absolutely ages, I just respond to people that take cheap shots. so it's okay for those people to take pot shots with impunity but it's not okay for me to respond because it's 'boring'.
okay then.
 
I never realised you took your duties so seriously.

'Take potshots with impunity'

Carry on then.

Fire away, I'm sure there's loads of criticisms of Rafa in lts of threads you haven't vanquished yet.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42522.msg1209445#msg1209445 date=1288614282]
seriously ave, you'd be better served flagging

'rafa had to go'
'rafa lost the dressing room'
'rafa lost the plot'

because I don't recall creating ONE rafa thread in absolutely ages, I just respond to people that take cheap shots. so it's okay for those people to take pot shots with impunity but it's not okay for me to respond because it's 'boring'.
okay then.
[/quote]

Neil, I think you're taking this too personally. It's not 'cheap' shots, I'm sure some people do but by and large you know we're mostly a fair bunch and most of the opinions professed in this thread and the "Bye Bye Roy" one are valid.

Like Keni said, I'm largely sat on the fence regarding Rafa, he did some good and he did some bad, in almost equal measure. He deserves alot of credit for rebuilding our reputation in Europe, but he deserves flack too for fucking things up more than occasionally.

I do jump to his defence too, especially against some of the more extreme views on here from the usual idiots, but I'll also take stock with people painting him as being treated unfairly and having a unblemished record, because it's clearly not true.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=42522.msg1209450#msg1209450 date=1288614600]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42522.msg1209445#msg1209445 date=1288614282]
seriously ave, you'd be better served flagging

'rafa had to go'
'rafa lost the dressing room'
'rafa lost the plot'

because I don't recall creating ONE rafa thread in absolutely ages, I just respond to people that take cheap shots. so it's okay for those people to take pot shots with impunity but it's not okay for me to respond because it's 'boring'.
okay then.
[/quote]

Neil, I think you're taking this too personally. It's not 'cheap' shots, I'm sure some people do but by and large you know we're mostly a fair bunch and most of the opinions professed in this thread and the "Bye Bye Roy" one are valid.

Like Keni said, I'm largely sat on the fence regarding Rafa, he did some good and he did some bad, in almost equal measure. He deserves alot of credit for rebuilding our reputation in Europe, but he deserves flack too for fucking things up more than occasionally.

I do jump to his defence too, especially against some of the more extreme views on here from the usual idiots, but I'll also take stock with people painting him as being treated unfairly and having a unblemished record, because it's clearly not true.
[/quote]

Well played Mark. Question though - did Houllier's departure generate as much threads/debate when he left

When Roffa was doing so AWFUL in the league in his first season, did anyone say we'd be better to have Houllier back.

Just curious!
 
[quote author=localny link=topic=42522.msg1209476#msg1209476 date=1288616383]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=42522.msg1209450#msg1209450 date=1288614600]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42522.msg1209445#msg1209445 date=1288614282]
seriously ave, you'd be better served flagging

'rafa had to go'
'rafa lost the dressing room'
'rafa lost the plot'

because I don't recall creating ONE rafa thread in absolutely ages, I just respond to people that take cheap shots. so it's okay for those people to take pot shots with impunity but it's not okay for me to respond because it's 'boring'.
okay then.
[/quote]

Neil, I think you're taking this too personally. It's not 'cheap' shots, I'm sure some people do but by and large you know we're mostly a fair bunch and most of the opinions professed in this thread and the "Bye Bye Roy" one are valid.

Like Keni said, I'm largely sat on the fence regarding Rafa, he did some good and he did some bad, in almost equal measure. He deserves alot of credit for rebuilding our reputation in Europe, but he deserves flack too for fucking things up more than occasionally.

I do jump to his defence too, especially against some of the more extreme views on here from the usual idiots, but I'll also take stock with people painting him as being treated unfairly and having a unblemished record, because it's clearly not true.
[/quote]

Well played Mark. Question though - did Houllier's departure generate as much threads/debate when he left

When Roffa was doing so AWFUL in the league in his first season, did anyone say we'd be better to have Houllier back.

Just curious!
[/quote]

Can't remember tbh mate but I remember people saying that not much had changed in terms of style or league position, I think Bren's thread summed it up about the new manager being the same as the old manager.
 
[quote author=localny link=topic=42522.msg1209476#msg1209476 date=1288616383]
When Roffa was doing so AWFUL in the league in his first season, did anyone say we'd be better to have Houllier back.

Just curious!
[/quote]

A new manager is a new league, we're prepare to Rafa more time to settle down. On the other hand, an English manager with 35 years of managerial experience ....
 
[quote author=KopPoNok link=topic=42522.msg1209481#msg1209481 date=1288616752]
[quote author=localny link=topic=42522.msg1209476#msg1209476 date=1288616383]
When Roffa was doing so AWFUL in the league in his first season, did anyone say we'd be better to have Houllier back.

Just curious!
[/quote]

A new manager is a new league, we're prepare to Rafa more time to settle down. On the other hand, an English manager with 35 years of managerial experience ....
[/quote]

Is that really the case, or is it just that as the years without a title pass we get less and less patient?

8 or 9 years ago we used to give new players at least a season. Remember how everyone would talk about Pires as the example?
 
[quote author=Mamma Mia link=topic=42522.msg1209484#msg1209484 date=1288617138]
[quote author=KopPoNok link=topic=42522.msg1209481#msg1209481 date=1288616752]
[quote author=localny link=topic=42522.msg1209476#msg1209476 date=1288616383]
When Roffa was doing so AWFUL in the league in his first season, did anyone say we'd be better to have Houllier back.

Just curious!
[/quote]

A new manager is a new league, we're prepare to Rafa more time to settle down. On the other hand, an English manager with 35 years of managerial experience ....
[/quote]

Is that really the case, or is it just that as the years without a title pass we get less and less patient?

8 or 9 years ago we used to give new players at least a season. Remember how everyone would talk about Pires as the example?
[/quote]

Well, I think we're just impatient with inferior player/coach. We're more patient to those with potentials to shine, as compare to journeymen with not so impressive CVs (you know they'll get you nowhere).
 
[quote author=localny link=topic=42522.msg1209476#msg1209476 date=1288616383]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=42522.msg1209450#msg1209450 date=1288614600]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42522.msg1209445#msg1209445 date=1288614282]
seriously ave, you'd be better served flagging

'rafa had to go'
'rafa lost the dressing room'
'rafa lost the plot'

because I don't recall creating ONE rafa thread in absolutely ages, I just respond to people that take cheap shots. so it's okay for those people to take pot shots with impunity but it's not okay for me to respond because it's 'boring'.
okay then.
[/quote]

Neil, I think you're taking this too personally. It's not 'cheap' shots, I'm sure some people do but by and large you know we're mostly a fair bunch and most of the opinions professed in this thread and the "Bye Bye Roy" one are valid.

Like Keni said, I'm largely sat on the fence regarding Rafa, he did some good and he did some bad, in almost equal measure. He deserves alot of credit for rebuilding our reputation in Europe, but he deserves flack too for fucking things up more than occasionally.

I do jump to his defence too, especially against some of the more extreme views on here from the usual idiots, but I'll also take stock with people painting him as being treated unfairly and having a unblemished record, because it's clearly not true.
[/quote]

Well played Mark. Question though - did Houllier's departure generate as much threads/debate when he left

When Roffa was doing so AWFUL in the league in his first season, did anyone say we'd be better to have Houllier back.

Just curious!
[/quote]

Well, it is important to remember we had some really thrilling CL games that season.... And that was something GH hardly delivered at all.
 
[quote author=Insignificance link=topic=42522.msg1209491#msg1209491 date=1288618762]
[quote author=localny link=topic=42522.msg1209476#msg1209476 date=1288616383]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=42522.msg1209450#msg1209450 date=1288614600]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42522.msg1209445#msg1209445 date=1288614282]
seriously ave, you'd be better served flagging

'rafa had to go'
'rafa lost the dressing room'
'rafa lost the plot'

because I don't recall creating ONE rafa thread in absolutely ages, I just respond to people that take cheap shots. so it's okay for those people to take pot shots with impunity but it's not okay for me to respond because it's 'boring'.
okay then.
[/quote]

Neil, I think you're taking this too personally. It's not 'cheap' shots, I'm sure some people do but by and large you know we're mostly a fair bunch and most of the opinions professed in this thread and the "Bye Bye Roy" one are valid.

Like Keni said, I'm largely sat on the fence regarding Rafa, he did some good and he did some bad, in almost equal measure. He deserves alot of credit for rebuilding our reputation in Europe, but he deserves flack too for fucking things up more than occasionally.

I do jump to his defence too, especially against some of the more extreme views on here from the usual idiots, but I'll also take stock with people painting him as being treated unfairly and having a unblemished record, because it's clearly not true.
[/quote]

Well played Mark. Question though - did Houllier's departure generate as much threads/debate when he left

When Roffa was doing so AWFUL in the league in his first season, did anyone say we'd be better to have Houllier back.

Just curious!
[/quote]

Well, it is important to remember we had some really thrilling CL games that season.... And that was something GH hardly delivered at all.
[/quote]

in a way he did deliver it, but he wasn't allowed stay around to finish it. Rafa was saved by Europe that year. Took him a long time to crack the code of the PL though. In the early days he did learn from his mistakes quickly though. I think everyone knew Houllier's time was up. Rafa - it was 50/50...
 
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=42522.msg1209456#msg1209456 date=1288614874]
[size=7pt]was only trying to help[/size]
[/quote]

I'm neither one side nor the other of the argument, but I can't believe that you are so naïve to think that this thread was really going to help.
 
[quote author=Marquis link=topic=42522.msg1209688#msg1209688 date=1288640042]
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=42522.msg1209456#msg1209456 date=1288614874]
[size=7pt]was only trying to help[/size]
[/quote]

I'm neither one side nor the other of the argument, but I can't believe that you are so naïve to think that this thread was really going to help.
[/quote]


agreed. personally i think avvy has been amazingly hypocritical in his pugnaciousness and sanctimoniousness on this issue lately.


anyway, this is a good article from the bbc which i think most people should be able to agree on:


At the start of the season, Manchester United manager Sir Alex Ferguson was asked about the implications of Rafael Benitez replacing the Real Madrid-bound Jose Mourinho at Inter Milan.

"They favour Madrid, no doubt about that," was the characteristically blunt response from Ferguson.

While the lingering animosity between Ferguson and his former Liverpool sparring partner Benitez made his assessment predictable, the Scot's view reflected the general consensus that Madrid were getting the better deal and that all-conquering Inter would be weakened under the stewardship of a coach whose reputation nose-dived during a dismal final season at Anfield.

Three months into Benitez's tenure at the Italian and European champions and opinions are starting to change. Slowly but surely, the Spaniard is winning over the hearts and minds of fans, pundits and the all-important Italian press, who fell out so dramatically with Mourinho.

A solid if unspectacular start to the Serie A season - Inter are second, four points behind surprise leaders Lazio - has been overshadowed by a confident opening to the defence of their Champions League title, which resumes against Tottenham at White Hart Lane on Tuesday night.

RAFAEL BENITEZ FACTFILE
Born: 16 April, 1960, Madrid
Teams managed: Real Madrid B, Real Valladolid, Osasuna, Extremadura, Tenerife, Valencia, Liverpool, Inter Milan
Honours: Two Spanish league titles, one Champions League, one Uefa Cup, one FA Cup
Did you know? Benitez played for the Spain Universities XI in the World Student Games in 1979
A 2-2 draw at FC Twente was followed by a 4-0 thrashing of Werder Bremen and a first-half demolition of Spurs at the San Siro, during which Inter played with a flair and swagger rarely seen under Mourinho.

Although Gareth Bale's stunning hat-trick for the north Londoners narrowed the scoreline to 4-3, it did little to alter the impression that the holders would take some beating in this season's competition.

"In some ways their football is even better than last season," said John Foot, author of Calcio: The History of Italian Football. "It's less cagey, less Catenaccio-esque than Mourinho would play.

"The first half hour against Tottenham was pretty expansive football and the team can almost play with its eyes closed now. It's already clear that they are going to be in contention for all these trophies right to the end of the season."

Italian football analyst Tor-Kristian Karlsen says Benitez's Inter are less liable to sit back and soak up pressure than they were under Mourinho during the 2009-10 campaign.

"The team keep the ball more under Benitez and the defensive line is usually pushed higher up the pitch," added Karlsen, a well-travelled scout and regular columnist for Calcio Italia magazine.

"Mourinho was more focused on defence and relied more on counter-attacks and the magic of individual players than the collective, rehearsed moves favoured by the Spaniard."

606: DEBATE
What is your opinion of Rafael Benitez?
By any measure, Benitez had a hard act to follow. Mourinho's achievement of winning an unprecedented Treble of Italian league, cup and Champions League ensured any successor was almost certainly doomed to a degree of failure.

Whereas Serie A rivals AC Milan and Juventus spent heavily to enhance their squads for the 2010-11 season, Inter chose not to add to their resources, instead offloading the volatile but talented striker Mario Balotelli to Manchester City.

Benitez has kept faith with the 4-2-3-1 formation preferred by his Portuguese predecessor, but the subtle adjustments he has made to the side are reaping rewards.

The Spaniard's main alteration has been to end Samuel Eto'o's period of exile on the right wing and restore him to his favoured role as a central striker. The former Barcelona frontman has responded with a blistering start to the season, scoring 13 goals in 12 games.


Click to play
Click to play
Eto'o scores at World Cup
Benitez has also given youth a chance, with 18-year-old Brazilian Coutinho and 22-year-old Jonathan Biabiany of France both returning from loan spells to force their way into the side. The duo were outstanding in the victory over Spurs, adding flair and dynamism to Inter's attacking play.

"I think Rafa is giving more players a chance," Foot commented. "All Mourinho teams have a backbone of the older guard. It's nice to see Rafa experimenting a little bit more. There's a lot of pressure on Wesley Sneijder to create everything but they need someone else. Coutinho looks to have that spark about him."

Mourinho's two-year tenure at Inter was characterised by extraordinary success on the field but plenty of ill-feeling off it. The former Chelsea and Porto boss had countless fallouts with journalists and other managers, his polemical behaviour prompting Catania director of football Pietro Lo Monaco to claim he "deserves a smack in the mouth".

In March, Mourinho declared he was unhappy in Italian football "because I don't like it and it doesn't like me." He expressed a yearning for a return to the Premier League, where his charisma and arrogance drew nostalgic comparisons with legendary Nottingham Forest manager Brian Clough.

In contrast, Benitez's reserved character and guarded discourse with the press seemed to irk fans and journalists in England, but it makes him a much better fit for the old-fashioned ways of Italian football, according to Karlsen.

"Unsurprisingly his entry has been a lot less controversial than Mourinho's. Whereas the Portuguese set his own agenda from day one, Benitez has been somewhat more diplomatic, on the whole showing respect to fellow coaches and the football environment. This is important to Italians who value their own school of thinking and traditions," Karlsen reflected.

Benitez is a much better trainer than a finder of players. Others might have a better eye for a player, but they wouldn't know how to train them like Rafa Benitez does

Benitez biographer Paco Lloret
"I don't think Benitez got the credit he deserved in England. Partly because he didn't offer the sound bites and easy conclusions that make you a tabloid favourite, but also because his thinking and ideas on football may have been too prudent and unsexy to win over the ever so demanding supporters.

"It's interesting to see how even the Liverpool supporters are spilt when it comes to Rafa. It's either love or hate, genius or idiot. I can't remember a manager or even a player stirring up the same mixed emotions."

One area in which Benitez divides opinion is his dealings in the transfer market. Pundits such as former Reds defender Alan Hansen have lambasted the Spaniard over big-money flops like Robbie Keane, Alberto Aquilani and Andrea Dossena, while his successor in the Anfield hot-seat Roy Hodgson last week bemoaned the number of "expensive failures" at the club.

Others such as respected writer and blogger Paul Tomkins has argued that Benitez has been unfairly maligned and prefer to highlight success stories like Pepe Reina, Fernando Torres and Javier Mascherano.

Wherever the truth lies, Benitez is unlikely to play such a central role in buying players at Inter, where sporting director Marco Branca and owner Massimo Moratti have the final say in new signings.

According to Paco Lloret, Benitez's biographer and close friend, this system will suit the Spaniard, as it more closely resembles that which was in place during his time at Valencia, where he won two Spanish league titles and a Uefa Cup.

"Benitez is a much better trainer than a finder of players," Lloret stated. "He knows how to design systems and work with a team. Others might have a better eye for a player, but they wouldn't know how to train them like Rafa Benitez does.


Benitez looks on in frustration as Liverpool lose at White Hart Lane
"Benitez likes working behind closed doors. Everything which surrounds a club, like the media, Benitez knows it's important but he doesn't see it as a priority."

In returning to White Hart Lane on Tuesday night, Benitez is revisiting the ground where his Liverpool tenure began to unravel in August 2009.

Having taken Manchester United right to the wire in the 2008-09 season, Liverpool went into the following campaign with high hopes of ending their 20-year wait for the title, only to suffer a morale-shattering 2-1 defeat to Spurs on the opening day.

Early exits from the Champions League and both domestic cups followed and a seventh-place Premier League finish in May brought a sorry end to a regime that had begun with an stunning European Cup triumph over AC Milan in 2005.

And while many fans directed their ire at detested former American co-owners Tom Hicks and George Gillett, there is little doubt that Benitez departed Anfield with his status considerably diminished.

"Right now Rafa faces a challenge to restore his reputation because his departure from Liverpool wasn't good," Lloret continued. "He's made a good start but there's a long way to go."
 
Naive,no.

Hopeful,yes.

You cant have a thread on here talking about Roy or our players or anything without it somehow descending into a Rafa wankathon, so I thought this might help.

But since Neil has appointed himself a defender of the faith,I see the folly in another new thread.
 
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=42522.msg1209697#msg1209697 date=1288640844]
Naive,no.

Hopeful,yes.

You cant have a thread on here talking about Roy or our players or anything without it somehow descending into a Rafa wankathon, so I thought this might help.

But since Neil has appointed himself a defender of the faith,I see the folly in another new thread.
[/quote]


you're a fucking hypocrite. virtually all the benitez arguments on here are started by someone like you criticising him rather than someone like me or neil praising him, and you're always right in the thick of it either way, getting your punches in.
 
Pray tell,peterhague where I've been a hypocrite or sanctimonious.

Hell,all we need is Asbo and we'd have a full team.
 
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