Dempsey, aka Demsey appaz ;) - Bullet dodged?

[dee]

He's played 28 games this season, and scored 7 with 4 assists (with one game to go).

Were we right to bank the cash and buy Sturridge/Couthino at Xmas? Is this a real example of why Benitez didn't quite get it right in his later years (buying players because he could afford them, rather than them being the 'answer')?Will we be strong enough to refuse to buy mediocre in future?

 

[Dreambeliever]

100% although I'm sure some would disagree.

 

[Modo]

We got a younger and better striker, of course it was the right thing to do.
I never really understood why we wanted him in the first place.

 

[hamstrung_pigeon]

If I remember correctly, he's scored a few important goals for the Spurs this season to either earn a draw or secure a win. 7 goals and 4 assists for the mooted price (5m?) is a decent return in my opinion. Spurs supposedly has a tight wage ceiling, so I'm not sure his wages are too high as well.

Our money's definitely better spent in the longer term on Coutinho, but even if we did get Dempsey in the first part of the season, it doesn't mean we wouldn't have gone out to spend on Sturridge and Coutinho in January. We'll never know obviously.

We could've used an additional option in the first half of the season and he was available and a decent option.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

He would have done very well with us ...

 

[keniget]

I didn't want him in the summer and I'm still glad we didn't get him.

What's the point of saddling ourselves with an average 30 year old who has a high opinion of himself?

The same applies this summer. We need to make ourselves competitive first and we can't afford to not get value for money.

 

[juniormember]

We really needed SOMEONE to come in last summer. Dempsey wasn't who I wanted though.
Could we have bought Sturridge instead of trying so hard to loan him then failing? Or was the money only made available in January by the owners after seeing how shit we were and how heavily we relied on one player to do everything? Who knows.

If it's a question of either/or, then we've certainly taken the correct approach and the right decision, but if there was an option c), I'd have had someone come in, be it Sturridge or someone else last summer. First half of the season might have turned out very differently.

 

[Rosco]

I don't know how so many people couldn't see it at the time. A player in his late twenties who has a one off really good season. Common sense would tell you he's highly unlikely to do it again.

But unfortunately common sense is sorely lacking around here.

Mystic:

They'd still be ahead of us, it's too easy to jump on the Bale bandwagon, they have a very good side. Dempsey didn't accidentally score all those goals last season, he's very good, stop being naïve.

Hansern:

Sigurdsson has been pretty unimpressive in that role, but Dempsey didnt have a pre season so he's probably slowly getting into form. Will defo score 10+ league goals

Buddha:

Feck off the Dempsey haters.

Goals, work-rate, attitude, good injury-record, relatively fresh given his age, can cover different positions.

What's not to like?

Irishred:

Welcome to 2012....

You know 4m will barely buy you a decent 3rd/4th tier player these days (Powell, Nathan Lowton, Delph, Simon Cox). Nevermind one who was 4th top scorer last season in the Premier division.

Trollco said: ↑

Can someone explain why people are in favour of signing a slightly above average player who at ages 27 to 29 has had the best period of his career?

This is Robbie Keane, Stewart Downing style waste on a smaller scale about to happen. And he'll block the progress of Sterling. I'd be okay if it was a Bellamy style deal but 8 or 9m for him is nuts.​

barrymac20 said: ↑

Who's to say the next 2 or 3 years wont be even better for him?​

I wouldnt bet on anything more than one more decent season from him. He's going to decline, by how much is the question.

What'll happen is people will say he, didnt settle /couldn't handle the pressure or expectations at a big club, and that's why he didn't reproduce his form- which for the record will be bollocks.

Average type players like Dempsey regularly have a roughly three year window in which they perform above their normal level before coming back to earth. Buying a player who is arguably towards the end of that window is the kind of decision making that took us from being a regular CL team to a mid table one. Despite having superior resources to some clubs above us

Then Mark says:

Trollco has his graphs on the chalk board and his ruler at the ready, players at their peak are never a good proposition, appaz. Perhaps we shouldn't have bothered with Gary Mac, maybe United shouldn't have bothered with Teddy.

Not looking very clever now Mark are we ?

Dmishra nailed it in his response to Mark:

Gary Mac was on a free, and Sheringham was some 3 million, and both were classy footballers. The price mooted for Dempsey is way higher, and he's more a hard-working journeyman, who's just coming off of the season of his career.

Hansern gets it wrong again .....

Sheringham was 31. Dempsey has playef for 2 clubs his entire career. Averaged 6/7 goals pr season until the last 2 years were he has really hit the back of the net.

He's got 1 year left on his contract, and we probably wont pay more than 6 mill for him. Which is a good deal.
Now, I can think of many more interesting signings. But he gives you mobility, skill, finishing, versatility and a pressing game. He's also extremely good at making runs into the box and has a Cahill spring in his leap and timing.

I'm ok with this signing if we sign one more flair player with a bit more pace and trickery aswell.

Th age thing is bollocks though. He's 29 and will be 30 at the end of the season. For a decent fee this will be a good investment. He's not a player that relies on his pace either and doesnt seem to have a bad history with injuries.

And as if those comments weren't bad enough there was outrage about the owners stopping Rodgers signing Dempsey. I'll spare you the details, but needless to say a lot of people look very silly. ​

 

[Modo]

Where's the thread I need to see what I wrote

 

[Athens]

 

[King Binny]

If I remember correctly, he's scored a few important goals for the Spurs this season to either earn a draw or secure a win. 7 goals and 4 assists for the mooted price (5m?) is a decent return in my opinion. Spurs supposedly has a tight wage ceiling, so I'm not sure his wages are too high as well.

Indeed. His goals earned Spurs 3 wins and a draw. 7 poins fewer would have them in 6th place instead. 1921 mins played in the league = averaged a goal/assist every other game.

Obviously we made great signings in Sturridge and Coutinho in Jan and the likes of Ayre has been using that as a point to prove themselves right for now pushing for Dempsey. However, he's no flop to be considered a bullet dodged (in terms of ability). 12 goals 7 assists in 42 appearances aren't too shabby (goal/assist every 1.5 games).

 

[Mystic]

I don't know how so many people couldn't see it at the time. A player in his late twenties who has a one off really good season. Common sense would tell you he's highly unlikely to do it again.

But unfortunately common sense is sorely lacking around here.


















Not looking very clever now Mark are we ?

Dmishra nailed it in his response to Mark:

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Hansern gets it wrong again ..... ​

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And as if those comments weren't bad enough there was outrage about the owners stopping Rodgers signing Dempsey. I'll spare you the details, but needless to say a lot of people look very silly. ​

Don't quote me as saying something stupid when what I said is completely correct. Tottenham are a very good side, and Dempsey is a good player.

 

[6TimesaRed]

who is Demsey ?

 

[Silver Sean]

Glad we never got him. Seems like a massive prick. Him and Adebayor together is a cunt's paradise.

 

[mark1975]

I don't know how so many people couldn't see it at the time. A player in his late twenties who has a one off really good season. Common sense would tell you he's highly unlikely to do it again.

But unfortunately common sense is sorely lacking around here.


















Not looking very clever now Mark are we ?

Dmishra nailed it in his response to Mark:

​

​

Hansern gets it wrong again ..... ​

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​

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And as if those comments weren't bad enough there was outrage about the owners stopping Rodgers signing Dempsey. I'll spare you the details, but needless to say a lot of people look very silly. ​

You take it as the rule of thumb Ross, which it isn't, just because a player is past a certain age, it doesn't mean they're beyond worth. And fwiw, his goal yesterday might be the difference between CL football and not.

It's funny how you're quick to pick and choose when stats actually mean something, I see you're lording it in the Rooney thread in similar vein. Do HIS stats count for anything this season? Thought not.

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

who is Demsey ?

He means Dempsey. Surely you could have worked that out from the other posts in the thread?

 

[6TimesaRed]

He means Dempsey. Surely you could have worked that out from the other posts in the thread?

 

[Rosco]

You take it as the rule of thumb Ross, which it isn't, just because a player is past a certain age, it doesn't mean they're beyond worth. And fwiw, his goal yesterday might be the difference between CL football and not.

It's funny how you're quick to pick and choose when stats actually mean something, I see you're lording it in the Rooney thread in similar vein. Do HIS stats count for anything this season? Thought not.

I don't know what you're on about re Rooney.

I've never said there's no value ever in old players, I've consistently said there is no point in us signing them given where we are.

Had we signed Dempsey when you and the other myopic posters wanted us to, then we probably wouldn't have been able to sign either Sturridge and Coutinho.

Had we signed Dempsey people would be saying the proven 18 goal a season man had flopped, and needed replacing. And our season would have been pretty much the same - a totally pointless signing for us.

You might be less inclined to be a smartarse in future, given what I said was spot on (again)

 

[King Binny]

Were the signing of Sturridges, and more importantly Coutinho in question when we were linked with Dempsey in the summer? What IFwe signed Dempsey and then Coutinho? Dempsey's stats prove he contributes a goal/assists at least every other game. What IF he maintains that stat here?

Whose fault will it be if we miss out on signing good players, when it is obvious we need them? The player who was signed earlier, cos he wiped out the transfer kitty (despite performing)? Or the manager and/or management?

Probably = almost certainly
Spot on = accurate, correct

My English is not perfecto but I can see a difference between the two. The arguments were based on predictions thus I preferred to look at what he has done this season to judge.

Just want to re-iterate, I'm not signing we should've signed him, nor am I crying over missing out on him. Just don't think he has done that poorly to be considered a 'bullet dodged' (which was basically in response to the thread). In the same way some questioned how some questioned how its fair to judge Moyes on his resources at Everton, then can't the same be said about judging him when he's at a different team (that has scored 5 fewer league goals than Liverpool) with different style of play?

 

[Rosco]

Were the signing of Sturridges, and more importantly Coutinho in question when we were linked with Dempsey in the summer? What IFwe signed Dempsey and then Coutinho? Dempsey's stats prove he contributes a goal/assists at least every other game. What IF he maintains that stat here?

Whose fault will it be if we miss out on signing good players, when it is obvious we need them? The player who was signed earlier, cos he wiped out the transfer kitty (despite performing)? Or the manager and/or management?

Probably = almost certainly
Spot on = accurate, correct

My English is not perfecto but I can see a difference between the two. The arguments were based on predictions thus I preferred to look at what he has done this season to judge.

Just want to re-iterate, I'm not signing we should've signed him, nor am I crying over missing out on him. Just don't think he has done that poorly to be considered a 'bullet dodged' (which was basically in response to the thread). In the same way some questioned how some questioned how its fair to judge Moyes on his resources at Everton, then can't the same be said about judging him when he's at a different team (that has scored 5 fewer league goals than Liverpool) with different style of play?

Season 1 of his contract showed a massive decline in performance from the previous year. They've got a couple of years left of him.
Is he going to get better again? He might, but I'd bet heavily against it.

Binny do you think if he played 38 games he'd have contributed to 19 goals - probably up there with the best in the league.

It's quite obviously the case that the ratio would have dropped the more he played, meaning AVB used him correctly to get the best out of him. He's an effective bit part player in a good team. He's not one of the best players in the league.

It's still a bullet dodged, we aren't a good team yet and we didnt need an experienced bit part player

 

[King Binny]

Season 1 of his contract showed a massive decline in performance from the previous year. They've got a couple of years left of him.
Is he going to get better again? He might, but I'd bet heavily against it.

Binny do you think if he played 38 games he'd have contributed to 38 goals - probably more than anyone else in the league?

It's quite obviously the case that the ratio would have dropped the more he played, meaning AVB used him correctly to get the best out of him. He's an effective bit part player in a good team. He's not one of the best players in the league.

It's still a bullet dodged, we aren't a good team yet and we didnt need an experienced bit part player

I get what you and trying to say Rosco, especially given he's 30. I guess that's what sets us apart from Spurs - they're ready for an immediate challenge and can sign players who will help them at the instant whereas we require rebuilding.

12/13: 12 goals 7 assists 2811 mins (a goal/assists per 147 min)
11/12: 33 goals 9 assists 5568 mins (a goal/assists per 132 min)

Factoring in new team (without preseason with them) under a new manager in a new system and slightly differing role and not forgetting he was basically injury free the previous season - I don't think its 'massive decline in performance'.

Think its just how we define 'bullet dodged'. For 5 million, just thought that's a bit harsh.

 

[Rosco]

The problem with ratio stats is its of benefit to people who aren't good enough to start regularly.

If you're not good enough to start, why should you get a benefit from the stat?

Some people convinced themselves Crouch was a 1 in 2 goalscorer based on a similar reading of stats. When he got the opportunity to start regularly, he didnt keep up that ratio.

 

[King Binny]

Again, we need to take a wider perspective of stats. Fewer mins does not necessarily equate to not playing regularly. Stats don't tell you that he missed the 1st 3 matches matches due to lack of match fitness, for example. However many times he was rested with 10-15 minutes to go etc.

Injured in Feb (21 starts) and with the exception of defenders, only behind Bale (32 starts), Lennon (27 starts), Defoe (27 starts), Dembele (26 starts) in minutes played. 3rd highest goal scorer at a club who were Europa League quarter finalist and are challenging for CL qualification. Goals that won them 7 league points (including vs. Man Utd twice and Man City).

Just some of the many things that minutes played doesn't tell you about.

 

[Rosco]

It's a skill for a player to stay fit and be available for games.

Not an excuse.

 

[King Binny]

I see. Shouldn't have signed Sturridge then. Missed Nov, Dec with hamstring injury and only completed 70% of the games he was supposed to be available for us!

 

[Rosco]

I see. Shouldn't have signed Sturridge then. Missed Nov, Dec with hamstring injury and only completed 70% of the games he was supposed to be available for us!

That's the main downside to that deal. I still think it's a good one though

 

[juniormember]

It's a skill for a player to stay fit and be available for games.

Not an excuse.

You keep getting better! Blimey.

 

[Hansern]

What did I get wrong Ross? He's scored 11 goals as an impact player for them, and 7 of them in the league. So I got the total right and not the league goals, big whoopdy fucking do.
Those 7 goals could have won us 9-12 points more had we signed him from the start of the season. In the end I'm very happy we didnt because it resulted in us getting Coutinho and Sturridge which is a much better outcome, yet something we DIDNT know in August.

So in other words, you have as usual absolutly no idea what you're on about. Using stats when you feel like it, thinking managers doesnt matter and that ALL PLAYERS LOSE THEIR LEGS WHEN THEY HIT 30 AND MUST BE SHOT AND TURNED IN TO GLUE.

So shut yer trap and stop trolling.

 

[mark1975]

It's a skill for a player to stay fit and be available for games.

Not an excuse.

You overlooked some pretty valid points there by Binny (Quelle fucking surprise).

 

[mark1975]

It's a skill for a player to stay fit and be available for games.

Not an excuse.

You do know why he wasn't fit for the start of the season? Right?