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Defensive headaches

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We could have Baresi and Costacurta in their primes as our centre backs and it would be the same scenario. The team needs to defend better as a whole, be positionally better, and cut out errors. It also needs a natural, class DM. Simple as that. And in fairness, for the first half hour last night we kept them in check very nicely.
 
He doesn't look as if he's cleared his head from the end of the last season and the World Cup debacle. Steve Peters needs to work on him. He showed in the last campaign (much to my surprise) that he can be a real leader, but he's gone right back into his shell now, and he was non-existent as a captain last night. And positionally he's always been allowed to be a free spirit, so it's a bit fanciful for Rodgers to expect him now to acquire the discipline to sit where he does rather than simultaneously confuse the centre backs and the central midfielders with his rash and unpredictable movement. But you don't throw away the talent he still he has. You just need to move it further up the pitch.
 
I wouldnt have a problem with that Macca. Play him further up beside Henderson and either Allen or Lucas deep
 
I think people are over complicating alot of the issues. For years we were well protected because we had a team that defended as a team. When we lose possession on the edge of the opponents box, we look vulnerable straight away because we're constantly trying to get in position, as we play so advanced. When we have the ball and we are on the ascendency, we have a completely different defensive unit to when we don't have the ball, which isn't out of the norm but in our case, it's asking too much. We lose possession and the fullbacks are 20+ yards advanced from the centre backs, the centre backs are wide of each other, with Gerrard either ahead of them or wandering into a too far advanced position. We play either a diamond or with high advanced wide forwards, which generally gives the fullbacks the length of the pitch to cover and protect. The right side isn't too bad because you have Henderson who naturally covers this side, but the left - whoever plays there is on a hiding to nothing.

Like I said previously, play a direct pass into our defensive zone early and we're screwed, we don't have the capacity to reshape and that's why you have people getting sucked to players, a line that lacks cohesion and players looking like they're lapsing in concentration. All of this if altered would obviously have a knock on effect on our forward play, because we're able to get so many bodies forward, but it's such and obvious, gaping flaw, it needs sorting. Teams are going to expose it more and more and more. It's Rodgers Achilles heal and until we address it in some way, then players are going to continue to look inept at controlling it.

The problem we have is that Rodgers wants us to adjust to life without Suarez and not look like we're struggling for goals, good luck to him sorting out both of those problems because one will inadvertently have an effect on the other.

I thought we looked excellent for the first 40 mins. Compact and City hardly got a sniff in.
Then they get a goal out of nothing from a defensive error and the game changes.
Second and third comes after we move higher up the pitch and committ men forward, its how City tore teams apart last season.

Still, we only conceded 7 shots last night With 4 on target. Without some poor defensive mistakes we would have been fine.
But that cost us most of our goals last season and the one area we really need to improve.
Lovren didnt make one personal mistake last season but in our defence he looks a liability.
Either the rest of the defence follows his lead or not. Moreno and him were pushing out yesterday while Skrtel and Johnson were doing their own thing. Might be a good thing to get Manquillo in as he will listen.
Skrtel was good yesterday but he has to follow the rest of the defence aswell.
 
well lets be honest , we've spent fuck loads and have more options than ever . Rodgers mentioned alot during the summer how improving the defensive side of things was important and would help offset the loss of suarez's goals . So he's well aware of it , it's now time to show they can make the improvements . It's probably Rodgers' biggest challenge this season for me .
 
I thought we looked excellent for the first 40 mins. Compact and City hardly got a sniff in.
Then they get a goal out of nothing from a defensive error and the game changes.
Second and third comes after we move higher up the pitch and committ men forward, its how City tore teams apart last season.

This is exactly as I saw it too. There was one very long spell (I think between 36-38 mins) where City were camped in the final third, spraying it left and right, trying to get through the centre and then recycling and starting again, where our defence as a team was brilliant and I felt proud of them !

The major issue is the one Ryan mentioned after Southampton and it was highlighted again yesterday .... Skrtel needs to be connected to Lovren by a piece of string because he is virtually static, until the ball comes into his realm, and that's when that cavernous hole in the middle of defence appears.
 
Lovren is pure class and he does most things right defensively and he has to be the boss in the back 4. This means that when he pushes up - yes you read it here first - the backline has to push with him. Failure to do so cost us against Saints and again on the 2nd goal against City. Getting to the Tassotti-Baresi-Costacurta-Maldini stage will take some time. Baresi just had to pass a wee fart and they would all take 5 steps forward. Johnson and Skertel looks oblivious when Lovren makes the push up field. That has to change and will solve a lot of issues defensively.

We have a major issue at HM and it's probably the biggest one we have disregarding the obvious back4 problem. We have little structure defensively and the solution starts with a HM that can connect the dots. This is not Gerrards fault. How could you expect him to learn how to play that position at 33?
 
This is exactly as I saw it too. There was one very long spell (I think between 36-38 mins) where City were camped in the final third, spraying it left and right, trying to get through the centre and then recycling and starting again, where our defence as a team was brilliant and I felt proud of them

Yes, that was encouraging. But the same sequence of play should be used as a lesson for our attackers: whereas City kept hold of the ball, stayed patient and continued to move it around, we (especially Coutinho and Sterling) repeatedly went for killer through balls between the centre backs. That's not death by football, that's voluntary euthanasia.
 
This is exactly as I saw it too. There was one very long spell (I think between 36-38 mins) where City were camped in the final third, spraying it left and right, trying to get through the centre and then recycling and starting again, where our defence as a team was brilliant and I felt proud of them !

The major issue is the one Ryan mentioned after Southampton and it was highlighted again yesterday .... Skrtel needs to be connected to Lovren by a piece of string because he is virtually static, until the ball comes into his realm, and that's when that cavernous hole in the middle of defence appears.

Before the game, Lovren was visibly saying to Skrtel to stay tight - one of the goals, in terms of positioning, was virtually identical to the Southampton one last week. A gap, Skrtel not moving across and Gerrard not dropping in.
 
He doesn't look as if he's cleared his head from the end of the last season and the World Cup debacle. Steve Peters needs to work on him. He showed in the last campaign (much to my surprise) that he can be a real leader, but he's gone right back into his shell now, and he was non-existent as a captain last night. And positionally he's always been allowed to be a free spirit, so it's a bit fanciful for Rodgers to expect him now to acquire the discipline to sit where he does rather than simultaneously confuse the centre backs and the central midfielders with his rash and unpredictable movement. But you don't throw away the talent he still he has. You just need to move it further up the pitch.


Agree, but does the current Stevie have the legs to play further upfield? Sadly, I don't think he does anymore.
 
Our defence turned to shit 2nd half last season once Gerrard started his deep lying quarter back position. We had that stretch in the first 10 matches when we were winning 1-0s - Gerrard wasn't playing there. You could say Gerrard contributed to our goals haul 2nd half of the season but it was arguably the brilliance of Suarez that was the catalyst. The big question now is with Gerrard. What does he actually contribute in his current position? I will say nothing that we will miss too much if he isn't playing. It might be knee jerk but time will tell.
 
Agree, but does the current Stevie have the legs to play further upfield? Sadly, I don't think he does anymore.


It's debatable, certainly. Personally I think he does. He obviously would need to be far more judicious in choosing when and where to expend his energy, but before he was moved back I don't think there was a major sign of him losing pace and power to the extent of, say, Bryan Robson in his later years. Even now Gerrard can keep up with quite a few much younger players when it comes to a short burst of pace. And there are plenty of precedents, internationally, of great midfield players controlling games further up the field without breaking into a sweat. In fact, perversely, I think, if anything, he's got TOO much energy (as well as too little discipline) for playing deep. Time and again he's running all over the place and invading the space that ought to be the responsibility of the CBs. Hopefully Lovren, the de facto captain, will start barking at him to keep out of his way.
 
I think people are massively underestimating the contribution of Gerrard as a deep lying playmaker. He's still been effectively spreading the play and getting the ball higher up the pitch quickly from a relatively withdrawn position. I remember a lot of people used to have similar debate when Xabi Alonso was in the team, and we only saw the impact of not having someone getting our game going from deep when he departed.

I don't think the problem is simply Gerrard and his tracking back, defending in the formation Brendan plays involves pressure from everyone and it just takes a couple of players slacking off or relinquishing duty to let the opposition get at our back four. I think it's general positioning and understanding that will need to be improved, which I think will happen once some of the new boys have settled in. In the meantime I think it'll still be inconsistent where the defence will look fine against certain opposition and a little more error prone against others.
 
I think people are massively underestimating the contribution of Gerrard as a deep lying playmaker. He's still been effectively spreading the play and getting the ball higher up the pitch quickly from a relatively withdrawn position. I remember a lot of people used to have similar debate when Xabi Alonso was in the team, and we only saw the impact of not having someone getting our game going from deep when he departed.

I don't think the problem is simply Gerrard and his tracking back, defending in the formation Brendan plays involves pressure from everyone and it just takes a couple of players slacking off or relinquishing duty to let the opposition get at our back four. I think it's general positioning and understanding that will need to be improved, which I think will happen once some of the new boys have settled in. In the meantime I think it'll still be inconsistent where the defence will look fine against certain opposition and a little more error prone against others.

He might be a brilliant deep lying playmaker, I don't doubt that, but he's playing in a DM role, and he's fucking gash at it. I hate to say it, but Lucas offers more at DM than Gerrard, and he's bollocks aswell.
For this reason I hope we dont go to a diamond with Balotelli here, because if we do, Gerrard will be isolated. If we go 433, with a triangle of the middle 3, at least we could afford gerrard a babysitter for his defensive duties.
 
We should take a closer look at how Juventus and Italy manage it with Pirlo. I can't say I noticed Gerrard play too badly against Southampton, and I missed most of the game last night, but we should look to incorporate their systems if he's as bad defensively as everyone makes out. Pirlo can't defend, yet plays that deep lying playmaker role, so we need to see how they protect Pirlo from the defensive aspects of the game and do it for ourselves.
 
We should take a closer look at how Juventus and Italy manage it with Pirlo. I can't say I noticed Gerrard play too badly against Southampton, and I missed most of the game last night, but we should look to incorporate their systems if he's as bad defensively as everyone makes out. Pirlo can't defend, yet plays that deep lying playmaker role, so we need to see how they protect Pirlo from the defensive aspects of the game and do it for ourselves.
Juventus play 4 high tempo players around him, with 3 at the back.

Gerrard isn't as good as Pirlo though
 
Juventus play 4 high tempo players around him, with 3 at the back.

Gerrard isn't as good as Pirlo though


Yeah I know Juve play three at the back, but what about Italy? Seem to play a kind of diamond, or have done traditionally. Also, we have high tempo players who don't stop, too, that we can surround him with. Hendo, Allen, Sterling all buzz around the pitch for 90 minutes.

In any case, I should have been more specific. We shouldn't exactly mirror what they do, but it would probably help get the best out of Gerrard, and help us look a lot more solid overall, if we borrowed a few ideas and tactics from them. Of course, Gerrard isn't Pirlo, but he could be a very good Pirlo-lite (Gerrard is/was the better player, of course, but not in this role - in case anybody thinks I'm saying otherwise) for our system and the end of his career if we get the balance right.
 
Italy don't really do much, they just let Pirlo do his composed swagger.
 
For every chance Gerrard creates, it feels like his lack of proper cover concedes three.

It's just not worth it for me.
 
Whilst Gerrad played a part in their first goal, the others were down to our defenders, esp centre backs, not being in the right position, either individually or collectively.
 
The "quarter back position"...

Are wingers now Wide Receivers? CB's now blockers? Can we all agree as a site that it's wrong and should be punishable by death?
 
The "quarter back position"...

Are wingers now Wide Receivers? CB's now blockers? Can we all agree as a site that it's wrong and should be punishable by death?
To be fair I've always thought highly of Jon Flanagan at free safety and Skrtel really is one hell of a WILL linebacker.

Personally though I'm not a fan of Mr. Rodgers playing Rickie Lambert at the five technique, much more of a three technique in my book (or even a nose tackle in the 3-4).
 
To be fair I've always thought highly of Jon Flanagan at free safety and Skrtel really is one hell of a WILL linebacker.

Personally though I'm not a fan of Mr. Rodgers playing Rickie Lambert at the five technique, much more of a three technique in my book (or even a nose tackle in the 3-4).


I think Lambert could be a blocking TE.
 
The same defensive issues were in play last year.

The main difference from Monday night's game and last season is pretty much that we didn't have Suarez around on Monday night to go and score a hat-trick and win us the game 4-3.
 
The same defensive issues were in play last year.

The main difference from Monday night's game and last season is pretty much that we didn't have Suarez around on Monday night to go and score a hat-trick and win us the game 4-3.

I thought Lazar looked absolutely brilliant in his cameo.
I think he's going to go a long way for us.

Based on the first 2 games I think the bench is calling for Gerrard and very soon at that.
 
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