Defence

[franklyfrank]

I often see on LFC forums people saying Carragher and Agger are a great partnership and all thes rest, well why is it that is every game they're shaky, weak and generally very vulnerable?

Im not blaming them solely, the majority of our players have been a disgrace to the Liverpool shirt this season.

However i feel if we brought in to commanding centre backs we'd have a solid base.

I watched two lads playing for B'ham a few weeks ago(can't remember who against) and they were solid as a rock all night - won every ball in the air, never gave their opponents a sniff of a chance, they communicated throughout the match and organised the Birmingham defence to great effect. Scott Dann and Roger Johsnon i think you call them?... hardly household names and not the most fashionable of players but i think we need them type of players to shore up the defence and stop us being such a soft touch.

The likes of Michael Dawon and Michael Turner are similar defenders in their approach.

Whgat do you think lads?

 

[Squiggles]

Neither of those suggested are better than Carragher or Agger.

This season Agger's been disrupted injury and Carragher may be getting on a bit - but the majority of the problems stem from threats from set-pieces, and from playing alongside useless cunts like Insua and, at times this season: Johnson.

I'm not saying there isn't a problem at CB - there is. But there's much greater ones than two proven players who have a history of a decent partnership.

 

[darkstarexodus]

Although certain individuals throughout the team have struggled this year, my impression is that there is very little effective communication between squad members on the pitch, especially in defense. Those Brummie backs may not hold a candle to our centreback pairing but if they can talk, they're a step ahead.

 

[RolandG]

Our defence is a shambles. Insua is not good enough to hold down a regular starting place in the team. He gets skinned too easily and doesn't get back quickly enough when going forward. He has enough talent to improve but he certainly needs to improve (and fast).

Carragher is a legend and rightly so. He is Mr. Liverpool! However, sentiment wins you nothing and if the truth be told, Carra is on a downward spiral. This has been a shocker of a season for him. A few good performances here and there but overall, not good enough! He was taken to the cleaners last night.

 

[LarryHagman]

I can't work out why we are so inept at the back, Reina excepted of course. Especially considering we also usually deploy 2 defensive midfielders and a defensive right winger to help them out.
There are individual reasons; Carra is having a bit of a mare, Agger is better on paper than grass, Insua is woeful, Johnson is not the best defender going, Skrtel is limited etc. but as a unit we are not much different to when we were actually good.
Whilst it sorts itself out, we should play Carra, Skrtel, Agger, Aurelio across the back, Johnson in midfield, Insua in the reserves.

 

[jimmy]

I'm really worried about Carra. He's been our Mr. defence for so long, but this season he's been in a shocking form. I hope I'm wrong, but he may well be in the twilight of his career, and we don't seem to have any backup for the day after.

 

[manwithnoname]

Insewer is as bad as Traore, but at least Djimi had some pace

 

[Fabio]

[quote author=Brendan link=topic=38443.msg1033403#msg1033403 date=1263455133]
Insewer is as bad as Traore, but at least Djimi had some pace


[/quote]

And height

 

[Farkmaster]

At least Traore could get us knocked out of the FA cup in style.

 

[Delinquent]

I thought our defence looked pretty solid in the second half. Right up until the point that Benitez tried to 'shore it up' by bringing Skrtel on and separating the central partnership.

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=38443.msg1033420#msg1033420 date=1263456447]
I thought our defence looked pretty solid in the second half. Right up until the point that Benitez tried to 'shore it up' by bringing Skrtel on and separating the central partnership.
[/quote]

To be fair, Skrtel got completely isolated for the goal and was left marking two players while Agger stood marking an empty zone. I'm not blaming Agger, Skrtel could have done more to challenge the ball, but the problem I feel all season has been a system one. We see it in attack and defence. We don't attack balls, we're static in both boxes. The marking system is shit. How many goals have we lost to balls into the box from wide areas or from set pieces?

 

[LeTallecWiz]

[quote author=Farkmaster link=topic=38443.msg1033406#msg1033406 date=1263455502]
At least Traore could get us knocked out of the FA cup in style.
[/quote]

ha ha too true.



Hi Mark! Can you please only be optimistic and leave Agger alone (or Drizzt might come after you like he did when Ryan took the 'Blame Agger' way).

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=38443.msg1033423#msg1033423 date=1263456789]
[quote author=Farkmaster link=topic=38443.msg1033406#msg1033406 date=1263455502]
At least Traore could get us knocked out of the FA cup in style.
[/quote]

ha ha too true.



Hi Mark! Can you please only be optimistic and leave Agger alone (or Drizzt might come after you like he did when Ryan took the 'Blame Agger' way).
[/quote]

Heh, I wasn't blaming Agger mate, I felt Skrtel could have challenged the ball more, but then Agger shouldn't be under instruction to stand a few yards away marking no one. The whole system is shit.

 

[jimmy]

I think Insua is an equal "partner" for that goal. I was shocked at how he allowed that cross to be made.

 

[the_khl]

Whenever Carra is moving the ball upfield it's beeing done in the air. He's easily winning in the catergory 'hang-time' known from the NFL.

This is football however.

He's a brilliant man-to-man defender still but boy he is extremely one-dimensional when going forward. The way Reading kept a man on Agger whenever we tried to build up play told it's own story really. Every team will do that against us this Season, close down our only capable player moving the ball upfield on the ground.

Based on this arguing alone we probably should think about moving Carra out right and give Skrtel another go, as he's at least willing to take the ball forward on the ground. And sa Carra actually looked 'lively' on the right in ET last night it probably should be considered for the Stoke game.

 

[Sunny]

[quote author=the_khl link=topic=38443.msg1033460#msg1033460 date=1263459959]


Based on this arguing alone we probably should think about moving Carra out right and give Skrtel another go, as he's at least willing to take the ball forward on the ground. And sa Carra actually looked 'lively' on the right in ET last night it probably should be considered for the Stoke game.
[/quote]

I think we'll see a lot more of that this season - Carra on the right. It did seem to stop him hoofing the ball aimlessly for one thing.

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

we're blaming carra for our lack of options going forward. i think we should really be looking elsewhere first. concentrating on the basics. defenders who can defend. midfielders who can create and strikers who can score.

 

[manwithnoname]

Why were you shocked? He's fucking rubbish

 

[Sunny]

[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=38443.msg1033468#msg1033468 date=1263460245]
we're blaming carra for our lack of options going forward. i think we should really be looking elsewhere first. concentrating on the basics. defenders who can defend. midfielders who can create and strikers who can score.
[/quote]

Carra is constantly bypassing our midfield with his hoofing Gerry and, a large part of the time, our strikers as well. It's seriously pissing me off. His defending last night was crap as well. He's not alone in that of course.

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

I just mean that the 7 men in front or him that are supposed to be the ones creating and scoring are not doing their job. at least carra is defending. yeah sure it is a problem but we have much much bigger ones now

 

[Sunny]

I see what you're saying. I think we have problems throughout the team and the club. I'm so fucking depressed over Liverpool

 

[Vlads Quiff]

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=38443.msg1033421#msg1033421 date=1263456720]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=38443.msg1033420#msg1033420 date=1263456447]
I thought our defence looked pretty solid in the second half. Right up until the point that Benitez tried to 'shore it up' by bringing Skrtel on and separating the central partnership.
[/quote]

To be fair, Skrtel got completely isolated for the goal and was left marking two players while Agger stood marking an empty zone. I'm not blaming Agger, Skrtel could have done more to challenge the ball, but the problem I feel all season has been a system one. We see it in attack and defence. We don't attack balls, we're static in both boxes. The marking system is shit. How many goals have we lost to balls into the box from wide areas or from set pieces?
[/quote]

It's just another example of Benitez stubborn streak taking us under Mark. Every man and his dog knows that the zonal marking system is shite. The players do , the fans do , the pundits do, there is only one ma who thinks it works, and he refuses to listen

regards

 

[Whitey85]

Carragher isn't the problem. Hes played with better players before and has been able to concentrate on his own game more. This season hes constantly having to try and boss fullbacks about who can't defend. I think the strain of trying to do his own job and make sure the ones around him are doing theres is really taking its toll on him. If he was playing at the back with Finnan, Riise and Hyypia he wouldn't be having these current problems imo. They were all good, strong, experienced pro's who went about their job better than Agger, Degen and Insua do.

 

[spider-Neil]

djimi was definately better than insua, anyone who says other wise is deluding themselves

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=38443.msg1033484#msg1033484 date=1263462518]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=38443.msg1033421#msg1033421 date=1263456720]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=38443.msg1033420#msg1033420 date=1263456447]
I thought our defence looked pretty solid in the second half. Right up until the point that Benitez tried to 'shore it up' by bringing Skrtel on and separating the central partnership.
[/quote]

To be fair, Skrtel got completely isolated for the goal and was left marking two players while Agger stood marking an empty zone. I'm not blaming Agger, Skrtel could have done more to challenge the ball, but the problem I feel all season has been a system one. We see it in attack and defence. We don't attack balls, we're static in both boxes. The marking system is shit. How many goals have we lost to balls into the box from wide areas or from set pieces?
[/quote]



It's just another example of Benitez stubborn streak taking us under Mark. Every man and his dog knows that the zonal marking system is shite. The players do , the fans do , the pundits do, there is only one ma who thinks it works, and he refuses to listen

regards
[/quote]

Yep. This is three accomplished centre backs here. It's not Ruddock, Babb and Kvarme, it's three good players being made to look like numpties because of the inadequacies of the system and those around them.

As Whitey just said, they're also covering for inconsistent fullbacks. I've got no faith in any of our fullbacks defensively, including Johnson. I made this point early on in the season, Insua and Johnson both attack and neither are prepared to tuck in. Say what you like about Riise, but at least with him and Finnan (or Arbeloa) at fullback, they knew when to tuck in to compress the space. What's happening now is that the fullbacks are getting caught too wide or too high up the pitch, and the centre backs are being dragged away from each other, which is just creating holes all over the shop.

 

[Sunny]

[quote author=Whitey85 link=topic=38443.msg1033486#msg1033486 date=1263462947]
Carragher isn't the problem. Hes played with better players before and has been able to concentrate on his own game more. This season hes constantly having to try and boss fullbacks about who can't defend. I think the strain of trying to do his own job and make sure the ones around him are doing theres is really taking its toll on him. If he was playing at the back with Finnan, Riise and Hyypia he wouldn't be having these current problems imo. They were all good, strong, experienced pro's who went about their job better than Agger, Degen and Insua do.
[/quote]

Carra is a much of a problem as the rest of the defence Whitey. I love Carra. I love his passion and effort. You can't fault that. His playing has been poor this season and his distribution worse. He's absolutely part of the problem.

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=Sunny link=topic=38443.msg1033495#msg1033495 date=1263463381]
[quote author=Whitey85 link=topic=38443.msg1033486#msg1033486 date=1263462947]
Carragher isn't the problem. Hes played with better players before and has been able to concentrate on his own game more. This season hes constantly having to try and boss fullbacks about who can't defend. I think the strain of trying to do his own job and make sure the ones around him are doing theres is really taking its toll on him. If he was playing at the back with Finnan, Riise and Hyypia he wouldn't be having these current problems imo. They were all good, strong, experienced pro's who went about their job better than Agger, Degen and Insua do.
[/quote]

Carra is a much of a problem as the rest of the defence Whitey. I love Carra. I love his passion and effort. You can't fault that. His playing has been poor this season and his distribution worse. He's absolutely part of the problem.
[/quote]

I'm not going to argue that Carra doesn't have his flaws, but the system should work and the team should compliment each other. The issue is the centre backs are being exposed and alot is being asked of them because of the inadequacies of those around them. The problem just spreads throughout the team. Players try to make up for the problems around them by doing too much etc and that in itself leads to issues.

The centre of midfield has it's flaws, so when they're not getting a foothold on the game it impacts on the defence because they try to take the pressure off them (for example). As a unit we're just not functioning on any level. There's no fluidity in our play, we don't attack and defend as a team, the wide play is poor, the midfield has it's issues, the fullbacks are rubbish defensively and the centre backs are being exposed. And then we have Torres and Gerrard, struggling with injury and with no ideal cover for them, and often when they do play they're isolated because of the poor play around them.

It's a sorry mess.

 

[Sunny]

I'm not disagreeing Mark. We have problems all over the pitch and obvious mental problems too. I'm just saying we can't excuse Carra for his recent performances based on his past ones. As you say though, we're poor all over and just not playing as a team

 

[ibromurph]

Someone mentioned how the defence shouldn't, in theory, be so vulnerable given that we play with (essentially) 3 defensive minded midfielders.

Well, like I always say, if you're not attacking, then you're just waiting to get beat. We've held the lead many times this season only to lose it late on due to negativity and taking our foot off the peddle.

 

[The Nomad]

Insua should be dropped, I know he's a young'un... but he's playing like a twat.
Johnson isn't always fit, and when he is, doesn't know when to get back.

So when you've got your right back playing right wing, and your left back playing like a twat, that leave 2 strikers to run at Agger and Carra.

With all the best will in the world, even Carra has said his form is poor this season, Agger still isn't 100%

Wa-hey.

Other players who are off form or shit:

Kuyt - Off-form
Lucas - should be no where NEAR the team.

Thats 6 out of 11 players.