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David Maddock and Kop Faithful

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Sunny

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Honorary Member
Latest article from David Maddock highlighting our current plight (old hat to most of us). Also talks about Kop Faithful organisation who's aims are to make sure the banks do not refinance. I'm going to find out more. I'm sick of these two twats in charge of our club and any bank allowing them to refinance will simply sound the death knell for our club.

It hasn’t, because that profit has been swallowed up by crippling debts placed on the club by owners who lied about their intentions, when they bought Liverpool.

They said they would pay for Liverpool with their own money. They didn’t.

They said they would invest in playing staff. For the past two years they haven’t.

They said they would invest in a new stadium. They didn’t.

Instead they have grown just one thing. Debt. To the extent that it will reach £300million by the end of the year. And rising.

Truly, this situation can’t be allowed to go on any longer. Roy Hodgson is a talented manager, but he is no messiah. He can not turn water into wine. He can not turn a seventh-placed team into a Champions’ League outfit, by selling some of his best players and replacing them with cut-price alternatives.

It is economic madness. If Liverpool don’t have the lifeblood of Champions’ League revenue consistently, they face collapse, and yet their debts mean the manager is not allowed to compete for the top four place that will bring it.

So what can be done? For a start, the fans have to make clear they have had enough of this nonsense. First and foremost to the American owners, by telling them they simply have to go now, and any plan to refinance will be met with passionate resistance.

And the fans have to make clear their feelings to chairman Martin Broughton too, who has a massive role to play in the future of Liverpool Football Club.

Broughton never speaks to the Merseyside media, he doesn’t think we are important enough. Neither does chief executive Christian Purslow. They both though, seem to have a regular dialogue with well-placed business journalists in London.

So the business world is told there are at least five bidders for Liverpool, and a deal can be done by the end of August, while you, the real fan, are told nothing.

Now, both are strangely silent when it seems there are no bids on the table after all. And a transfer window comes and goes without any investment in the team, even when the whole future of the club depends on it.

So the time has come to let the chairman and chief executive know that you the fan won’t put up with this any more. You want to know what is happening, and when it will happen.

There is an organisation called Kopfaithful - check out their website . They are dedicated to saving not just the football club, but the community areas around the stadium too, which are being devastated by the lack of promised investment in infrastructure.

Kopfaithful have mounted a campaign in recent weeks aimed at putting pressure on the RBS to stop bailing the Americans out with further loans that require greater and greater levels of repayment. The sort of repayments that prevent any investment in players during the transfer window.

They have also identified several banks who have been approached by the Americans over refinancing, and they are campaigning to ensure those banks know what a disaster it will be if their regime is extended at Anfield.

True Liverpool fans must add their voice to this campaign, must make clear to the Americans and to the banks that further refinancing is not an option.

The next round of refinancing comes up in October, and if RBS extend once more, then they should realise they will become a massive target for millions of Liverpool supporters around the globe.

And if Broughton continues to ignore the fans and their wishes, then he too must realise he will become a target.

To simply cut off all dialogue with the fans when things become a little difficult is never the answer – Broughton and Purslow have to tell us what’s really going on, and do it now.


http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/opinion/columnists/david-maddock/David-Maddock-column-Why-Liverpool-fans-deserve-to-be-told-the-truth-by-Martin-Broughton-and-Christian-Purslow-after-another-depressing-transfer-window-article569783.html
 
I'm fucking sick of this cancer in our club. I do think it's important we, as fans, throw our weight to anything that avoids refinancing. I'm not going all SOS but I feel strbngly on this particular topic (refinancing). It'll fuck us over for a generation,
 
The more worrying thing for me is that hasn't been any news of a serious bidder. Is that because it's all being done behind closed doors or more likely because one doesn't exist?

If no suitable investor(s) are interested, what are our alternatives?
 
The Americans staying in charge is bad for the club. There is no denying that. I'm certain it will be at least 3+ years before the stadium project is restarted, if that is the case.

But i'm not quite certain that its going to be the end of the club. If they get good terms on long term debt, the club can be run in a financially sound manner.

In spite of what Broughton has said to the media, i'm sure refinancing existing debt is a viable alternative for the owners and it will be considered. H&G are not daft. They will definitely work towards that to get a better bargaining position with prospective buyers in any case. It may well be just posturing. We will have to wait and see.
 
[quote author=keniget link=topic=41733.msg1168847#msg1168847 date=1283374730]
The more worrying thing for me is that hasn't been any news of a serious bidder. Is that because it's all being done behind closed doors or more likely because one doesn't exist?

If no suitable investor(s) are interested, what are our alternatives?
[/quote]

Yeh it's very worrying mate. We can only hope it's the former. I'm guessing the only alternatives are refinance or administration. It's a sad state of affairs when admininstration looks like a more tempting fate. I'm just hoping Broughton can deliver on his word.

All I would say is that for the players as well as the fans, this is a fresh start. My message to the fans is this: have a little bit of patience and in a little bit of time I'll deliver.
 
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=41733.msg1168844#msg1168844 date=1283373819]
I'm fucking sick of this cancer in our club. I do think it's important we, as fans, throw our weight to anything that avoids refinancing. I'm not going all SOS but I feel strbngly on this particular topic (refinancing). It'll fuck us over for a generation,
[/quote]

The approach you are advocating seems to suggest there is a viable alternative that is being suppressed. Administration and a nine point penalty is the hard stop.

Are you really sure that there is a better alternative out there?
 
[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=41733.msg1168850#msg1168850 date=1283375054]
But i'm not quite certain that its going to be the end of the club. If they get good terms on long term debt, the club can be run in a financially sound manner.

[/quote]

Given the lies and behaviour from Hicks and Gillet since they bought us, would you thus trust them to do that ? Because I certainly wouldn't
 
What can we do about it?
Seriously, it isn't a democracy. You really think marches/protests/petitions will put any pressure on the owners?
They won't care about fans until they suffer financially, it's the only way you can hurt them.
These people are heartless cunts, the lowest of the low, in the bottom level of Dante's fucking inferno. To reach the height's they have reached you either must be an heir to a fortune or a grade A asshole.

Option A, start a worldwide boycott. Convince the entire fan base to not attend games, not buy any merchandise and not pay to watch any games on the telly. If you successfully do this you are the reincarnation of Che fucking Guevara, patria o muerte!!

Option B, wait it out. Bank of Scotland have a deadline and hopefully the club will be auctioned off to some rich sheik somewhere.

Option C, buy the club yourself. Give G & H a 300% profit.

Option D, Order a hit on G & H. Mind you, you'd probably have to off their sons and other heirs too.

Personally I'm going with B.
 
[quote author=Dee link=topic=41733.msg1168853#msg1168853 date=1283375188]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=41733.msg1168844#msg1168844 date=1283373819]
I'm fucking sick of this cancer in our club. I do think it's important we, as fans, throw our weight to anything that avoids refinancing. I'm not going all SOS but I feel strbngly on this particular topic (refinancing). It'll fuck us over for a generation,
[/quote]

The approach you are advocating seems to suggest there is a viable alternative that is being suppressed. Administration and a nine point penalty is the hard stop.

Are you really sure that there is a better alternative out there?
[/quote]

Not at all. The better alternative is new owners will buy the cunts out with a sound business model that won't lie, deceive and line their pockets at the expense of absolutely anything else. But also, if administration was a neccesary evil to remove our owners a put better ones in place it's an optioin I'd take any day no matter how unpalatable it seems.
 
[quote author=Stulikesdrums link=topic=41733.msg1168851#msg1168851 date=1283375054]
Rosco?
[/quote]

He does like these cryptic posts to entice lads into asking him for his opinion.
 
[quote author=Modokay link=topic=41733.msg1168856#msg1168856 date=1283375336]
What can we do about it?
Seriously, it isn't a democracy. You really think marches/protests/petitions will put any pressure on the owners?
They won't care about fans until they suffer financially, it's the only way you can hurt them.
These people are heartless cunts, the lowest of the low, in the bottom level of Dante's fucking inferno. To reach the height's they have reached you either must be an heir to a fortune or a grade A asshole.

Option A, start a worldwide boycott. Convince the entire fan base to not attend games, not buy any merchandise and not pay to watch any games on the telly. If you successfully do this you are the reincarnation of Che fucking Guevara, patria o muerte!!

Option B, wait it out. Bank of Scotland have a deadline and hopefully the club will be auctioned off to some rich sheik somewhere.

Option C, buy the club yourself. Give G & H a 300% profit.

Option D, Order a hit on G & H. Mind you, you'd probably have to off their sons and other heirs too.

Personally I'm going with B.


[/quote]

The owners dont give a fuck so pressure on them doesn't count for shit I agree. There HAS to be some avenues to explore though....


EDIT: And no it's not a democracy -but it is a club - a society, a community if you will,. Not everything is about money you know.
 
It's hard to see what we can do. We're basically left hoping that some rich guy will see the value in investing approximately £1bn into our club over the next few years.

The RAWK / SOS guys have been sending loads of emails to the media, banks and other interested parties. That may raise awareness or whatever, but it isn't going to magic into existence some wonderful saviour. The same goes for marches and various forms of protest.

If there are interested parties and it's simply a case of H&G doing their utmost to block the sale, it's another matter I suppose. I don't know that we as fans have enough information to make that call right now though.
 
[quote author=keniget link=topic=41733.msg1168868#msg1168868 date=1283375896]
It's hard to see what we can do. We're basically left hoping that some rich guy will see the value in investing approximately £1bn into our club over the next few years.

The RAWK / SOS guys have been sending loads of emails to the media, banks and other interested parties. That may raise awareness or whatever, but it isn't going to magic into existence some wonderful saviour. The same goes for marches and various forms of protest.

If there are interested parties and it's simply a case of H&G doing their utmost to block the sale, it's another matter I suppose. I don't know that we as fans have enough information to make that call right now though.
[/quote]

I agree with all of that Keni. It's just frustrating - a sense of helplessness and the hope there has to be something we can do. If those two cunts get refinanced I just can't see myself attending the game anymore. I can't justify lining their pockets for another 5 years or so. It's soul destroying. We all love the club but those two cunts are destroying it along with any future it has.
 
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=41733.msg1168872#msg1168872 date=1283376086]
I do agree though that it'd be nice if we had more information to go on.
[/quote]

Yes it would be nice if the board sent out a simple message that doesnt compromise NDAs but can ease your mind somewhat. Mines fucking bending with the thought these two are going to get a refinance deal.
 
I still think the (and please don't take offence) slightly simplistic approach that whoever buys our Club's assets will be in any way "better", "nicer" or even generally in it for the altruistic pleasure we ourselves may take from owning such a treasure would be misguided.

You only need to see how the recent vultures looked to buy the debt rather than the assets to realise the only interested parties would add not a jot to where we are currently.

I hate where we are but I fear more for the future.
 
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=41733.msg1168854#msg1168854 date=1283375190]
[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=41733.msg1168850#msg1168850 date=1283375054]
But i'm not quite certain that its going to be the end of the club. If they get good terms on long term debt, the club can be run in a financially sound manner.

[/quote]

Given the lies and behaviour from Hicks and Gillet since they bought us, would you thus trust them to do that ? Because I certainly wouldn't
[/quote]

You are right, as a lending bank it would be hard to trust H/G/LFC and offer good terms on long term debt. If not, It can be funded through PE money, but that will drain the club out of all liquidity and is not too different to the delinquent scenario we are in currently with RBS. But it will probably give them a leg to stand on during the negotiation process.

As for the fans trusting them to run the club in a financially stable manner - i think the interest is mutual. They need the club to remain an as much as we do. They have already improved and tapped into new revenue streams. The area where they have failed is - cost of financing. I'm sure they would take cheaper financing options if it was available.

Anyway our opinion is a non issue, unless we are considering a stadium boycott to force the club in to administration. The fans opinions and feelings count for very little otherwise. I may be re-stating what others have already said w.r.t this.
 
In my opinion the attempts by supporters' groups to get involved in the financial side of the club are going to have the reverse effect to that intended - in fact it may already be deterring good potential owners.
 
[quote author=Dee link=topic=41733.msg1168881#msg1168881 date=1283376681]
I still think the (and please don't take offence) slightly simplistic approach that whoever buys our Club's assets will be in any way "better", "nicer" or even generally in it for the altruistic pleasure we ourselves may take from owning such a treasure would be misguided.

You only need to see how the recent vultures looked to buy the debt rather than the assets to realise the only interested parties would add not a jot to where we are currently.

[/quote]

Spot on.
 
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=41733.msg1168843#msg1168843 date=1283373698]
Yeah how do you mean Ross ?
[/quote]

All of the following is purely my opinion, based on mainly what the club accounts state, background knowledge and things gleaned from the media. If you don't want to read all of the following (and really I wouldn't blame you) skip to the end where there's a one line summary.

The interest the club has paid on the finance is around 111m mark over three years, they are part of the reason we've made losses in the past few years but they aren't the only reason.

In the past (under Moores) we were unprofitable when we went a little overboard on transfer spending, that was fine because it was only a few million here or there and we generally balanced things out over the course of a number of seasons. Our net spend was typically in the 14-18m pound range.

Now we're unprofitable without a positive net spend . In our last set of accounts it shows that in the last financial year we paid £40.1m in interest, but the loss the club made was £52.8m. That means the club itself lost £12.7m on it's activities while posting a £3.5m profit on transfer activities. And that is the thing we should be really worried about.

The other thing worth noting at this point is that the hole in the balance sheet that the losses over the past few years would have made has been filled by €130 million (possibly a bit more?) that was put into the club by it's parent company, or H&G for short. It was done in the form of debt, so that money is owed back to H&G but the club itself doesn't actually have to pay it back. It's the same thing Mansour and Abramovich did with their clubs initially, when you're putting money into the club it's more advantageous to do so my making it in the form of a loan as opposed to equity for a couple of reasons. That money only becomes significant when the club is being sold, that's money that any new owner would need to pay to H&G, along with the RBS borrowings to make the club debt free. It also has the benefit for the owners that they get a nice little interest payment out of it too (8m per year on their 130m - that 8m is counted in the 40m above). (As an aside Randy Lerner gets 15m per year in interest on a 90m to Villa.)

The essential point being that, technically for now anyway, Hicks and Gillett were forced to carry the burden of the interest payments. Ultimately they will be paid back, but it certainly looks to me as though the transfer budget is not being eaten up by interest payments.

So you're left looking at the other outgoings from the club to see where the money is going, because more is going out than is coming in, even when we're making a small profit each year from transfer dealings.

We either need to increase turnover, CL qualification being our only significant way of doing that, or else cut our costs. We're a loss making club even when you strip out the interest, that's a serious worry and not something that will change simply because the owners change.

Bearing in mind that the Financial Fair Play rules do actually begin to come into force in 2012 we've got a whole lot of sorting out to do in the meantime.

It's been pretty clear since we appointed Hodgson, and our subsequent transfer activities (keeping Gerrard and Torres), that we're aiming for the CL spot this year and hoping that will get our finances back on track. What happens if we miss out though ?

It looks like the loss in revenue from the lack of CL football will probably be equalised by the increases in revenue from the new sponsorship deals, as well as the increased ticket prices that we all know about. So if we miss out on CL football again, we're not going to have any net spend on transfers next year either.

Looking through the accounts there is only one thing that's actually grown quicker than our revenues, and that's the wage bill. Given the ongoing nature of the commitment (multiple year deals to our big earners) it's a significant risk to the club. It really stifles any potential financial flexibility.

So effectively if we're taken over in the next few weeks, the new owner may well clear out the debts to RBS and H&G but we still won't have any transfer funds unless there is a significant cash injection into the club as well and the interest on their finance costs a lot less than G&H's does. That second part should be possible since H&G have only ever used expensive short term financing for the club, long term debt would inevitably be cheaper. Even then you'd still have the problem that unless we either increase revenues or cut costs our only way of getting transfer funds is by an injection of funds by the owners, and that will be outlawed by the UEFA Financial Fair Play rules.


If I was to sum up all of the above in one line it's the following: G&H are only one part of the problem.
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=41733.msg1168888#msg1168888 date=1283378079]
If I was to sum up all of the above in one line it's the following: G&H are only one part of the problem.
[/quote]

It seems like you are exploring an angle just for the sake of it.

Our chief issue before G&H is that we aren't capitalizing on match receipts and commercial opportunities, the former being more pressing.

The second was dealt with somewhat, the first was not by G&H, this leaves us in no better position, and increasingly more dependent on CL money.

We took on debt without it producing anything, whatsoever, we've taken on debt under terms which have crippled the club, and now we're fucked.

If not for G&H we'd be going through the same period of austerity a number of clubs are going through, but it, without our debt, wouldn't be some horrible cause for concern. If we were going through it while building a stadium, as we should be, we'd be in a great position.
 
We all knew that football clubs were hiding to nothing vanity items pre the credit fuck or whatever it's called, didn't we?... that's why Moores wanted out... it's just that it's harder to get people to part with half a billion quid in these days when it seems like quite a lot of money.

The whole system is fucked and flawed because it's all run by fuckwit dipshits who when they get additional investment at every turn, whether it be from sky or UEFA or whoever the fuck, never think about creating a rainy day fund but think about multiplying it by 1.5 and offering it to the next fucking bellend's agent who turns up, on the assumption that 'growth' will continue forevermore.

Well it won't, and we're fucked. And that's that.
 
Well, if it's as bleak as all that, we're surely not alone in being fucked (as far as the financial fair play rules are concerned).

Do Chelsea make enough money to cover their costs?

Will City be able to increase their revenue enough in the next two years to sustain their wage bill?

Wigan surely rely on Whelan funding them as they have a small fanbase. What about others?
 
Barca didn't pay the wages last month. Inter have lost 650m over the past 4 seasons.

Stand back and drink that in.... To win the CL cost Moratti 650m quid of his own personal dough over the past four years and well over a billion for the decade. He could have bought us twice and stuck an Everton on top.

It's all well and good being an egomaniac's plaything as long as one owns you. The only realistically modelled club at the top of European football is Arsenal. The rest are either propped up by a Sith Lord or utterly fucked.
 
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