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Dare I say it...........

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Dreambeliever

Dreambeliever

Will he believe again?
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We really struggled to control the midfield defensively in the 2nd half when we were 4-1, 4-2, and then 4-3 up.

Allen would have helped I think as would Lucas but considering one is gone and the other may well follow him in the next two weeks what will we do?

I think the point some Lucas fans have pointed out is that while he is limited and slow, without him we don't really have anyone else to do that role in the team. Can isn't disciplined enough for it, or least not yet, and yesterday was crying out for a bit of composure and control in that area of the pitch.

We aren't going to jizz all over every opponent and knock in four unanswered goals in 20 mins so we need to find a way to control games and shut them down once we get a lead.

So again what is the solution?

Play Henderson deeper?
Work on Can?
Play Stewart more?
Keep Lucas?
Get someone in?
 
This seems to be an ongoing problem for Klopp, he and Rodgers are cut from the same cloth in that respect. Long term I think Can is going to be groomed for the role, short term we will probably ship alot of goals
 
Haven't watch him enough but could Paredes be the man?

OptaPaolo @OptaPaolo 15 Dec 2015
18&96 - L. Paredes was the player with the most recoveries (18) and the most passes completed (96) on MD16 in Serie A. Growth.

OptaPaolo ‏@OptaPaolo Feb 26
83%-Leandro Paredes has the highest dribbles success percentage (83%) among Serie A players with 30+ dribbles attempted this season. Wizard.

OptaPaolo ‏@OptaPaolo Aug 2
8 & 49 - Leandro Paredes made the most recoveries (8) and attempted the most passes (49) in #LiverpoolRoma. Key.

Cpr3ErYWAAENIJ6.jpg
 
It's annoying how much we need a deep lying, calm, ball playing midfielder. Henderson is not that player. Even Can is better suited to a more free role in one of the 2 'box to box' positions in front of the DM.

If we sell Benteke for 30, it HAS to be invested in a left back and competent holding midfielder.
 
JohnnyRocket said:
It's annoying how much we need a deep lying, calm, ball playing midfielder. Henderson is not that player. Even Can is better suited to a more free role in one of the 2 'box to box' positions in front of the DM.

If we sell Benteke for 30, it HAS to be invested in a left back and competent holding midfielder.
Click to expand...

Spot on.
 
If Klopp agrees that we desperately need a DM and possibly a first choice elder back too, I think he would have plumped for them by now. Why would he leave two such crucial transfers right until the end of the window and leave them dependant upon whether we sell Benteke or not? He obviously doesn't seem those roles as a priority.
Although Moreno's show yesterday may have swung his mind to some degree on the LB
 
I've said it for a while now.
Can hasn't got the discipline to play in the DM role, his pace makes up for many of his faults.
Henderson can't position himself correctly and doesn't really challenge for the ball.

So it should basically be between Lucas and Stewart until Can starts to learn how to play in that position.
 
I think it's six of one, half a dozen of the other, between the personnel and the set up.

I think Moreno needs replacing, but part of the problem is how expansive we play, our fullbacks push high, as they did under Rodgers, so it always has an element of risk. Their second goal yesterday was them exploiting the gap between Clyne and Lovren. That's not a problem with personnel. The first goal saw Moreno pushing out straight away to support a potential attack, and getting caught. But positionally it's the sort of error of judgement he makes in practically every game.

As for Allen/Lucas, there are plenty of games they have played where we've struggled to control the game at all, the last visit to West Ham was one where Lucas failed on that note, and there have been plenty of others where we've conceded a few or failed to really get a foothold, with one or both of them playing. That's not a reflection of their abilities, not completely anyway, more a symptom of our inability as a team to control tempo and to step back and take our foot off the gas, and the sting out of the game.

The only way we know how to maintain possession is in the opponents half, when we do it in our half we usually fuck around passing the ball between the back line, before gifting possession to the opposition or giving a soft foul away. We've seen it loads of times, we don't have many players who have assurance on the ball in that sense, though I was impressed with Ragner's calmness in possession yesterday, so that's a start.
 
I dont think Klopp and Rodgers are the same as Klopp is addressing all of our problems with time and availability of the right kind of player the only limitation. Yesterdays lapses should not be looked upon as just purely defensive failures as there are other things to consider:

1) it was against Arsenal away
2) they were always going to have a moment where they would apply intense pressure.
3) first game of season for team and also for new faces. It was never gonna be perfect.

I think any issues right now can only be resovlved with better game management collectively by the team. No magic player will resolve the issues if it turns out one does exist this season.
 
I'm amazed in any manager that doesn't think a DM is an integral part of successful modern-day football. It's frigging obvious.
 
I like Can, but he's not the answer at DM (or deep lying central midfielder as klopp doesn't want a solely defensive midfielder) as he's positional sense is a fucking nightmare at times. That's not to say he may improve there & become more disciplined, but currently that's simply not the case.

Lucas has been our best player there but regardless of your opinion of him, his pace has suffered dramatically in the last couple of seasons & it leads to issues, not least being forced to give free kicks away & stopping momentum moving forwards through the centre.

Henderson isnt a DM, & unlike Can I'm not sure there's even any potential for him to become one. I'm not sure exactly why, but everything, his positioning, his body shape when trying to win the ball, the passes he tries from further back, everything just screams to me he should not be that far back on the pitch. Long term I'm not exactly convinced he should be anywhere on the pitch, despite quite liking him, but that's a different debate.

Of our current squad it seems Stewart looks most promising, & could maybe be the reason that Klopp is refusing to spend some of his funds on that position. It's a risk relying on a younger player coming through, but I've never been keen on the idea of buying a stopgap player or a journeyman as a solution either.
 
FoxForceFive said:
I like Can, but he's not the answer at DM (or deep lying central midfielder as klopp doesn't want a solely defensive midfielder) as he's positional sense is a fucking nightmare at times. That's not to say he may improve there & become more disciplined, but currently that's simply not the case.

Lucas has been our best player there but regardless of your opinion of him, his pace has suffered dramatically in the last couple of seasons & it leads to issues, not least being forced to give free kicks away & stopping momentum moving forwards through the centre.

Henderson isnt a DM, & unlike Can I'm not sure there's even any potential for him to become one. I'm not sure exactly why, but everything, his positioning, his body shape when trying to win the ball, the passes he tries from further back, everything just screams to me he should not be that far back on the pitch. Long term I'm not exactly convinced he should be anywhere on the pitch, despite quite liking him, but that's a different debate.

Of our current squad it seems Stewart looks most promising, & could maybe be the reason that Klopp is refusing to spend some of his funds on that position. It's a risk relying on a younger player coming through, but I've never been keen on the idea of buying a stopgap player or a journeyman as a solution either.
Click to expand...

There's a lot of issues with Henderson's game in that DM holding position.
  1. As a holding midfielder you're supposed to "hold" the ball and pick the right pass. Giving your teammates a bit of a breather. Basically dictating the tempo. Henderson tries to get rid of it as soon as he gets it. More often than not it's sideways and doesn't help us at all in attack.
  2. His positioning. Have a look at Arsenal's 2nd goal. It's totally not his fault but could he have done better? I think so. Why doesn't he close the gap?
  3. Reading the game. I expect a player in that position to try and win the ball quickly and not let the Arsenal midfielders turn in the middle of the pitch. Didn't see enough of that.

In the 2nd half, especially when Can came on and Henderson moved further up the pitch he looked a lot more comfortable. He was probably one of our best players on the pitch. Why? Because he didn't have that much of a defensive responsibility I believe. He got to do some forward runs and just act as cover. I really don't see a future for him in the DM role.
 
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The instructions from the manager were obviously get the counter going quick so criticism 1 is a bit unfair as is 2. I thought he played well.
I think we may be going over the top, apart from an unlucky deflection and an offside goal free kick I thought we did alright, a bit frenetic at times, but this is Arsenal away and apart from the aforementioned what did they create? Hardly anything.
 
I think we lost a bit of control when Coutinho went off, that seemed to have the biggest impact on us. This was during the stage when he was running the game, that being said we do lack the ability to control the game - we should have been using the pace of Mane and Origi at 4-2 to keep Arsenal turned and on the back foot but we didn't.

It doesn't help when the midfield of Henderson, Gini and Lallana and even at 4-2 we still had those 3 on at 4-3. At least one should have been taken off at 4-2 that was the problem.
 
tony said:
The instructions from the manager were obviously get the counter going quick so criticism 1 is a bit unfair as is 2. I thought he played well.
I think we may be going over the top, apart from an unlucky deflection and an offside goal free kick I thought we did alright, a bit frenetic at times, but this is Arsenal away and apart from the aforementioned what did they create? Hardly anything.
Click to expand...

You're right they didn't create too many clear cut chances but that was down to our defence. Our midfield just got bypassed too many times for my liking.
 
Silver Sean said:
I'm amazed in any manager that doesn't think a DM is an integral part of successful modern-day football. It's frigging obvious.
Click to expand...

Leicester won the league without a DM. Kante started 25 games as a central midfielder.
I agree that we need another type of midfielder to what we have though.
 
Hansern said:
Leicester won the league without a DM. Kante started 25 games as a central midfielder.
I agree that we need another type of midfielder to what we have though.
Click to expand...
I thought Drinkwater was a holding midfielder. Doesn't get forward much thats for sure and offers protection of the back 4.
 
Dreambeliever said:
We really struggled to control the midfield defensively in the 2nd half when we were 4-1, 4-2, and then 4-3 up.

Allen would have helped I think as would Lucas but considering one is gone and the other may well follow him in the next two weeks what will we do?

I think the point some Lucas fans have pointed out is that while he is limited and slow, without him we don't really have anyone else to do that role in the team. Can isn't disciplined enough for it, or least not yet, and yesterday was crying out for a bit of composure and control in that area of the pitch.

We aren't going to jizz all over every opponent and knock in four unanswered goals in 20 mins so we need to find a way to control games and shut them down once we get a lead.

So again what is the solution?

Play Henderson deeper?
Work on Can?
Play Stewart more?
Keep Lucas?
Get someone in?
Click to expand...
If the answer is Lucas, why did we conceded three goals on four occasions last season with him 'controlling' the midfield ?
 
mark1975 said:
The only way we know how to maintain possession is in the opponents half, when we do it in our half we usually fuck around passing the ball between the back line, before gifting possession to the opposition or giving a soft foul away. We've seen it loads of times, we don't have many players who have assurance on the ball in that sense, though I was impressed with Ragner's calmness in possession yesterday, so that's a start.
Click to expand...
If we are in possession then that means we are moving forward, not static. Obviously it's the same with any team, the only way to overcome that and retain possession without moving forward would be to push players into the open spaces all over the pitch creating tons of space to pass around - and nobody does that for good reason.

Every team in the league (long ball teams would be the exception) plays the ball around the back line until finding an opening in midfield or a run from an attacker inviting a long ball. Our issue isn't playing it around at the back, because we did that well yesterday, it's a more mobile midfield that creates space - watch our CMs, for me they don't move, to create space with little runs, anywhere near enough, and then when they do there is a gap to the forwards filled with opposition players (Arsenal did this well yesterday). I think Klopp got it bang on in the post match presser, "we didn't remain compact enough" ... hence our passing options become more limited.
 
Rosco said:
If the answer is Lucas, why did we conceded three goals on four occasions last season with him 'controlling' the midfield ?
Click to expand...
What games?

I know that one of them was the debacle at Watford but if I remember it correctly that had more to do with Bogdan playing than Lucas.
 
FoxForceFive said:
Of our current squad it seems Stewart looks most promising, & could maybe be the reason that Klopp is refusing to spend some of his funds on that position. It's a risk relying on a younger player coming through, but I've never been keen on the idea of buying a stopgap player or a journeyman as a solution either.
Click to expand...
I believe Klopp is waiting for Dahoud, he hasn't signed a new contract and wil be a free agent come next Summer (I think that's what I read).
 
Modo said:
What games?

I know that one of them was the debacle at Watford but if I remember it correctly that had more to do with Bogdan playing than Lucas.
Click to expand...
How the fuck did the ball get near the goalkeeper with Lucas on the pitch ?

You must be wrong
 
Glen C said:
I thought Drinkwater was a holding midfielder. Doesn't get forward much thats for sure and offers protection of the back 4.
Click to expand...
The Kante-Drinkwater partnership is what I think Klopp is targeting, two players who can move forward but when they do the other is more than capable of covering with neither being a true DM. It was a superb partnership.
 
I think the midfield struggled in the first half. People in my pub were on about putting on Can and Grujic to controll the midfield better, but I had faith that Klopp would not panic and spend the halftime adjusting the three he already had in there. It worked well and we had a very good 20 minutes before the team collectively collapsed. Again I feel we did the right thing by entering Can, and towards the end the guys solved the situation well.

It is a worry that we have so many Central midfielders and still lack that Balance point. Especially when Can is missing. However I think Klopps plan is to develop the midfield he has now and try to find someone between the names already there to do the job. If he will succeed I dont know, but I have a feeling he will not add to the current group of players when he already has Can, Milner, Gruijic, Stewart and Lucas to put in if needed.
 
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