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Chelsea v Liverpool - Match Thread

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To have any chance at top four, we cannot lose another game.
We can probably take two draws.

At this point 2 draws would constitute a good run of results. 4th is gone, we just need to get to the summer and rebuild/reset. Fuck the Europa its not worth the hassle.
 



Not to dampen everyone's mood even further, but that sub felt like an emotional and not thought-through decision and might well backfire. Salah will be rightly fuming, especially after the kind of effort he put in the first half. He will think he deserves more trust from the manager and the fact that we didn't score and barely put a shot on goal after the subs will not strengthen Klopp's argument.


Klopp said 'fresh legs' ... I don't believe him here, as this sub made no sense whatsoever.

0_Liverpool-v-Chelsea-Premier-League.jpg


His agent 'viral' tweet:

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I dunno, maybe I'm wrong, but our problem seems to be about not being able to score. Our defence hasn't exactly been abysmal. We've lost a bunch of games by one maybe two goals.
So, to me it's more of a midfield/attack problem than a defence problem now.
A fit Keita might have helped, having a player in midfield who is somewhat of a threat in attack would have also helped.
Maybe it's the whole "false ten" thing that isn't working any more?
I would like to think that things might have been better if we had a creative attacking midfielder, a DeBruyne type if you will and a regular striker upfront.
 
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I dunno, maybe I'm wrong, but our problem seems to be about not being able to score. Our defence hasn't exactly been abysmal. We've lost a bunch of games by one maybe two goals.
So, to me it's more of a midfield/attack problem now than a defence problem now.
A fit Keita might have helped, having a player in midfield who is somewhat of a threat in attack would have also helped.
Maybe it's the whole "false ten" thing that isn't working any more?
I would like to think that things might have been better if we had creative attacking midfielder, a DeBruyne type and a regular striker upfront.

I agree with that, the problem is a simple one, and it is really simple - we ONLY look like scoring when we do the unexpected in the final third, OR move/pass quickly in a forward direction as we build up our forward play movement. The former happened at least three times, the later did not happen at all - it was such bad slow build up play from midfield - it was embarrassing, Mane, and Gini were extremely poor with their movement and releasing that ball early. Thiago did what he does - I don't blame him as I don't think he was slowing down the build up play but Gini and Mane were consistently doing that.
 
Leaving aside the defensive issues for a minute our attacking success over the past couple of seasons has been based around 3 main plays as such

1) counterattacking with quick accurate passes behind the opposition backline to get our wide strikers running into space before a defence can get set in formation
2) pushing the fullback high up to act as auxiliary wingers and provide the crosses from wide areas. Not really aerial crosses but again passes laterally behind the defence for forwards to run onto
3) having Firmino drop off the 9 position into a an attacking midfield position to drag away an opposition defender and let the wide forwards run into the space

We don't provide much variation on that so of somebody can stop our wide forwards there aren't alot of goals in the team. We've never had much of an aerial threat beside set pieces where we can move Matip and VvD into attacking positions. We've never had any real goal threat breaking from midfield and we've never really had anybody who can accurately shoot from distance.

No system is unstoppable. The template of how to stop us has been written, photocopied and sent to every manager in the league. Our midfield offers zero threat so its easy to double up on our forwards, teams have no fear of Thiago, Milner, Jones or Wjinaldum hitting a screamer from 20 yards or breaking past their opponent to open up space.
 
Leaving aside the defensive issues for a minute our attacking success over the past couple of seasons has been based around 3 main plays as such

1) counterattacking with quick accurate passes behind the opposition backline to get our wide strikers running into space before a defence can get set in formation
2) pushing the fullback high up to act as auxiliary wingers and provide the crosses from wide areas. Not really aerial crosses but again passes laterally behind the defence for forwards to run onto
3) having Firmino drop off the 9 position into a an attacking midfield position to drag away an opposition defender and let the wide forwards run into the space

We don't provide much variation on that so of somebody can stop our wide forwards there aren't alot of goals in the team. We've never had much of an aerial threat beside set pieces where we can move Matip and VvD into attacking positions. We've never had any real goal threat breaking from midfield and we've never really had anybody who can accurately shoot from distance.

No system is unstoppable. The template of how to stop us has been written, photocopied and sent to every manager in the league. Our midfield offers zero threat so its easy to double up on our forwards, teams have no fear of Thiago, Milner, Jones or Wjinaldum hitting a screamer from 20 yards or breaking past their opponent to open up space.
I like this post and the last paragraph is a worth a discussion on its own. Perhaps @rurikbird can provide further info on this. Its late so I need to goto bed. If we are allowed to post here tomorrow i will continue this.
Goodnite.
 
For the second week running Mane had the chance to go down for a penalty and yet again the commentators praised him for staying on his feet ... and again (of course because you have to go down for it to be considered) it cost us. There is no doubt it would have been given because it was a clear foul. If you are fouled in the box go down, let VAR decide it as at least it wil be looked at.
 
I dunno, maybe I'm wrong, but our problem seems to be about not being able to score. Our defence hasn't exactly been abysmal. We've lost a bunch of games by one maybe two goals.
So, to me it's more of a midfield/attack problem than a defence problem now.
A fit Keita might have helped, having a player in midfield who is somewhat of a threat in attack would have also helped.
Maybe it's the whole "false ten" thing that isn't working any more?
I would like to think that things might have been better if we had creative attacking midfielder, a DeBruyne type and a regular striker upfront.
It's been said many times. Losing VvD, Gomez and Matip means our midfield has been shredded. Thiago was brought in to complement Hendo & Fabs with Gini, Keita & Jones the main backups. Plenty of variety, drive and creativity there. But shit happened. This season is a write-off, can't wait to get back to a settled team.
 
I'd also say that even though Bobby still has some sublime moments ... they are few and far between now and it's time to either move him on or bench him for Jota.
 
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I’ve got a feeling klopp will quit before end of season I really do, I truly hope not though.
 
I’ve got a feeling klopp will quit before end of season I really do, I truly hope not though.

This would mean I'd never ever have to watch that shiteclown Firmino play for us again, so forgive me being in two minds over this.
 
It's been said many times. Losing VvD, Gomez and Matip means our midfield has been shredded. Thiago was brought in to complement Hendo & Fabs with Gini, Keita & Jones the main backups. Plenty of variety, drive and creativity there. But shit happened. This season is a write-off, can't wait to get back to a settled team.

You know what worries me Froggy?
This season is a 'write off' is going to destroy our summer plans ... because our owners are net-spend kings, and without selling one of our big names, we'll be looking for a few smaller signings unless someone stumps up what we think Origi (LOL), Shaq etc are worth.
The damage this 'write off' season may do is huge, and that's me thinking this with Klopp staying ... This is no guarantee he is able or willing to carry on when this season actually ends (he can't wave a white flag now).

Though I agree, losing our 3 CBs has been the biggest issue ... I also think our lack of flexibility is hurting us big time - and I just hope as the squad starts to be rebuilt next year (as I want Klopp here to do it) that we entertain changing things around in light of our inability to do anything in the attacking third for months.
 
I agree, it would be a huge mistake to assume that things will snap back into place once we have Matip, VvD and Gomez available again. Of course we will be better when we have better players available but this implosion is down to a mixture of issues, injuries to key players is one but its most certainly not the only one.

Under investment in the squad is as big a problem as injuries, the two are linked IMO, so FSG shouldn't get off the hook that easy. It's also time for Klopp to admit his mistakes with regards some of his under performing signings and cut them loose. The sort of stubborn blindspots that he has developed can be indulged when you're winning, but only if you're winning.

I read an interview with Klopp before the derby saying this squad doesn't need any sort of drastic rebuild, I hope for his sake he was just doing a PR bit because this squad has holes everywhere and the top performers are nearly all 29/30. We don't need to sign more squad players like Tsimikas and Minamino, we need first players who can push our first teamers onto the bench like Jota.
 
I agree, it would be a huge mistake to assume that things will snap back into place once we have Matip, VvD and Gomez available again. Of course we will be better when we have better players available but this implosion is down to a mixture of issues, injuries to key players is one but its most certainly not the only one.

Under investment in the squad is as big a problem as injuries, the two are linked IMO, so FSG shouldn't get off the hook that easy. It's also time for Klopp to admit his mistakes with regards some of his under performing signings and cut them loose. The sort of stubborn blindspots that he has developed can be indulged when you're winning, but only if you're winning.

I read an interview with Klopp before the derby saying this squad doesn't need any sort of drastic rebuild, I hope for his sake he was just doing a PR bit because this squad has holes everywhere and the top performers are nearly all 29/30. We don't need to sign more squad players like Tsimikas and Minamino, we need first players who can push our first teamers onto the bench like Jota.

KIopp has had his hands tied with the squad at times but I agree, he's made mistakes. I think Minamino being given zero game time and then being cut loose was too rash a decision. Klopp seems stuck between a rock and hard place with the front three. He's needed to rest/drop Mane and Firmino at various times, but refused to. Like he doesn't want to force the question over their futures and he's conscious of upsetting them and them then deciding to move on (Mane especially). So he continues playing them while Minamino is at Southampton and there are other options there if he had the flexibility to alter his system or have an alternative plan, which he doesn't seem to have.

I've said for ages now, teams are getting wise to hitting us early with a long ball, it wasn't an overnight thing when we lost VVD, it's been happening for about a year or so. Especially targeting the chasm on our right side. I mean, we play with attacking fullbacks, but why don't we see that happen with Robertson? Because Robbo can defend and knows when to go and when to stay. He gets caught out occasionally, but that's more a symptom of the way we play than his own failings. Trent is a poor defender. Three years ago Rashford ripped him to pieces and you could see EXACTLY the same failings when we played them a month ago. Klopp's brilliant, but that's just criminal management. WE NEED A RIGHT BACK. Move Trent into midfield and/or play him at RB in games where we think we can get away with it. Time after time after time he's found out against the big sides.

The subs yesterday were ridiculous. Not so much the players coming on, I don't blame Ox or the decision to bring him on, Klopp thought he would bring urgency. Thiago and Firmino were slowing the game down and should have been the players to make way. Salah was having a decent game, so in trying to not upset two players he upset arguably our biggest player. This is the bit where the dressing room fractions and resentment set in. Salah going off yesterday was reminiscent of Torres getting hooked against Birmingham, that's where his personal rot with the management set in and I wouldn't be surprised if yesterdays decision will be one Klopp rues.

In the Summer I would get Harvey Elliott in the squad, get Minamino back and have a plan for him. Ship Origi, Shaqiri, Keita, Matip and Chamberlain. Put pressure on the board to spend. We need a QUALITY centre half, a right back, a creative midfielder and another forward. Players of real quality, not £7m punts that might come good in a year or so, not frantic last minute buys from The Championship. And work on actually having an alternative way of playing. It's fine having an ethos and a proven tactic that works, the top brass management adapt and evolve. I hope Klopp doesn't prove to be a few seasons wonder, where his frantic, high energy game reaps quick rewards but no long term foundation.
 
I'm loathed to even look at the next game, but it would be ballsy if Klopp did this:

-------------------Alisson-------------------
-Milner-----Fabinho--Kabak----Robbo
--------------------Gini----------------------
-----------Trent---------Thiago-----------
---Salah--------Mane---------Jota------

I don't think Thiago has been particularly great, especially of late. So I wouldn't be surprised to see Ox come in. Either way, playing the same struggling XI would be infuriating.
 
I have harped on a few times now about a formation change, and a different tactical approach.

Some sort of 3-4-1-2 with wingbacks and three center backs, sitting back, soaking it up and countering.

Easily becomes a 532 when sitting back and allows our fullbacks and attackers to be played to their strengths.
 
Here's Jamie Redknapp's scathing analysis:
[article]"I see a lot of Liverpool players who are feeling sorry for themselves right now.
"Last year, Liverpool were a pressing machine. Right now, teams are doing that to them."[/article]

Fuck him.
 
Leaving aside the defensive issues for a minute our attacking success over the past couple of seasons has been based around 3 main plays as such

1) counterattacking with quick accurate passes behind the opposition backline to get our wide strikers running into space before a defence can get set in formation
2) pushing the fullback high up to act as auxiliary wingers and provide the crosses from wide areas. Not really aerial crosses but again passes laterally behind the defence for forwards to run onto
3) having Firmino drop off the 9 position into a an attacking midfield position to drag away an opposition defender and let the wide forwards run into the space

We don't provide much variation on that so of somebody can stop our wide forwards there aren't alot of goals in the team. We've never had much of an aerial threat beside set pieces where we can move Matip and VvD into attacking positions. We've never had any real goal threat breaking from midfield and we've never really had anybody who can accurately shoot from distance.

No system is unstoppable. The template of how to stop us has been written, photocopied and sent to every manager in the league. Our midfield offers zero threat so its easy to double up on our forwards, teams have no fear of Thiago, Milner, Jones or Wjinaldum hitting a screamer from 20 yards or breaking past their opponent to open up space.

Right as promised - I think there are variations in our attack but I tell you what I have noticed regarding what you have said in your last paragraph:

  • I don't know if it is because Salah is crowded out but I tend to find that he is not really that great by himself on the wings in terms of dribbling past players with sufficient power and pace like some of the wingers in the league. As soon as he is trapped he has to pass the ball backwards, and actually he gets a lot of support from TAA for forward movement. Consider for a moment someone like Leroy Sane - he would run at you with great pace and was a powerhouse at it, regardless of how crowded out he was. Salah is not that sort, and I think the opposition has caught onto the fact that he can be contained easily. But again - what do you say to someone who consistently scores for you ?
  • The players operating in the CM role rarely ever make direct runs into that central space - and the forward movement is very rare it is always passing to the wings; but I thought we showed the ability to do that against Shef.United the other day. So we can do it but the passing has to be faster.
  • Yesterday it seems that forward options were very limited - players are not making the runs into space in a forward direction in the central areas for someone like Thiago to pick a pass which he is more than capable of doing.
  • With yesterday's game - I actually thought Jones had a big game, he like the others was not passing progressively in certain moments where he could have passed forward.
At the moment we are retaining possession at the expense of being too predictable and slow in our attacking movement. If players do not run into those spaces while the opposition is out of shape at the back then we can expect more of the same shit.

In my view - we have reached a state where we have screwed things up so much this season - I think Klopp should now just play Kabak with either Phlips/Davies at the back, put Fab in midfield as the holding guy, and then play Naby and Jones in midfield. I think the front three should be changed to the point where one of Mane/Bobby has to rotate with Jota. Accept that we will concede goals but give back the dynamism in midfield by playing two willing forward thinking / dribblers / creative types.
 
We're just bereft of any sort of attacking impetus against sides. It's literally like watching England play, get the ball, pass it about the final third, whip a hopeless ball into the box and see what sticks.

The System HAS to change to suit the personnel.

We get Zero value out of Thiago with how were playing, he's clearly a baller, change the system and let him do something, anything.

Stick Fab either into the 6 role immediately or sort out a back 3, sit deep, sack off the half-assed press and stick Salah and Mane onto the shoulders off their last man, drop Firmino and let Jota offer something fresh.
 
It's time we put some trust in our defenders to defend and put our best midfielders back into the midfield. It feels like the imbalance created by playing Fabinho and Henderson in defence is more detrimental than a potential reduction in the quality of our defensive personnel. That may mean less passing out from the back, but we'll just have to deal with that. In any case, our build up play has become so predictable that it could probably do with a bit of variation.

We need to give the team a chance to rebuild its confidence, so a good start would be to put players in the roles that made us successful. Then hope that muscle memory kicks in, and that this can compensate for our defensive frailties.
 
The most interesting moment in last nights game was when Jones bursts through the middle into space 20 yards out and Salah finds him on the edge of the box with a great pass only for Jones to miscontrol and it runs away from him. Not because he miscontroled but because I can't really remember another midfielder breaking beyond the front 3 in recent memory.

The gap is through the middle, teams are vacating that space against us because they have analysis of a million hours of footage telling them our nominal no9 will vacate that space and drop.

If the defensive system to stop Salah/Mané cutting inside is to let Firmino drop off and not follow him thereby allowing the defenders to double up on Salah/Mané then the logical counter is to have the midfield push forward and overload the pace Firmino has dropped out of.
 
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