I can't understand half this thread... who and where has someone said we were the best team in Europe?
Benitez "senses need for caution"
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We could definitely claim to be one of the best teams in Europe under Rafa, and certainly one of the most feared. We haven't been able to claim that in a long long time.
Some of you are being a bit obtuse here. Molbystwin was just praising Rafa for his main success while he's been here - which is the massive improvement in our European form. I don't think it's much of an exaggeration to say we've been the best (or certainly among the top three) teams in European competition during Rafa's time here. Two CL finals (one of them won), another CL semi-final, we've knocked out almost every big club in Europe during that time etc etc. This season is obviously an exception (although it won't be if we go on to win the Europa League) but on the whole Rafa is a brilliant European manager. It's his league form that is his downside - and will prove his downfall.
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=39591.msg1079888#msg1079888 date=1270123306]
What Bunny said. Oh and anyone who thinks ANY manager doesn't take the opposition into account when picking their team is a loon.
[/quote]
Of course every manager does to a certain extent but none to the crazy levels Rafa does.
He shackles his own teams creativity to try and control games where if he just lets the boys play they would stream roll most teams.
As the Portsmouth game showed.
What Bunny said. Oh and anyone who thinks ANY manager doesn't take the opposition into account when picking their team is a loon.
[/quote]
Of course every manager does to a certain extent but none to the crazy levels Rafa does.
He shackles his own teams creativity to try and control games where if he just lets the boys play they would stream roll most teams.
As the Portsmouth game showed.
[quote author=Molbystwin link=topic=39591.msg1079871#msg1079871 date=1270120573]
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=39591.msg1079851#msg1079851 date=1270118915]
[quote author=Molbystwin link=topic=39591.msg1079836#msg1079836 date=1270117278]
the fact that for the first time in twenty years it has been possible to say as a Liverpool fan that we support this best team in europe and actually mean what we say
[/quote]
That's not a fact. Any Liverpool fan proclaiming we were "the best team in Europe" after winning in Istanbul when in that same season we came fucking fifth in our own domestic league would be a bellend.
We've never even been the best team in England under Benitez.
[/quote]
Bellend?
I wasn't actually referring to that per se Brendan, i was more talking about the fact that under your favourite manager we have been consistently fucking dangerous in Europe, we have beaten team after team and clearly knew what we were doing, and before your go all cynical about that, and while we are on the subject, if you can't say that you are the best after holding up the trophy which says that you are then when can you?? Is it you have to be another team with the trophy to be the best or what? Have we achieved football Nirvana and swept all before us like the good ol days... no.... has anyone else? no ... have you found yourself in the last few years before a big European game fully confident that we were going to win? I know i have ... and there is a reason for that.
Ask yourself the question if you were a Liverpool player would you be arsed winning something for a fan like you?
[/quote]Its the top part of a penis. The bit your wee and spaz comes out of with the little slit in the top. I think it's called that because it's shaped a bit like a bell. Although I don't know why 'end' if anything it's the bellbeginning.
Hope this helps.
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=39591.msg1079851#msg1079851 date=1270118915]
[quote author=Molbystwin link=topic=39591.msg1079836#msg1079836 date=1270117278]
the fact that for the first time in twenty years it has been possible to say as a Liverpool fan that we support this best team in europe and actually mean what we say
[/quote]
That's not a fact. Any Liverpool fan proclaiming we were "the best team in Europe" after winning in Istanbul when in that same season we came fucking fifth in our own domestic league would be a bellend.
We've never even been the best team in England under Benitez.
[/quote]
Bellend?
I wasn't actually referring to that per se Brendan, i was more talking about the fact that under your favourite manager we have been consistently fucking dangerous in Europe, we have beaten team after team and clearly knew what we were doing, and before your go all cynical about that, and while we are on the subject, if you can't say that you are the best after holding up the trophy which says that you are then when can you?? Is it you have to be another team with the trophy to be the best or what? Have we achieved football Nirvana and swept all before us like the good ol days... no.... has anyone else? no ... have you found yourself in the last few years before a big European game fully confident that we were going to win? I know i have ... and there is a reason for that.
Ask yourself the question if you were a Liverpool player would you be arsed winning something for a fan like you?
[/quote]Its the top part of a penis. The bit your wee and spaz comes out of with the little slit in the top. I think it's called that because it's shaped a bit like a bell. Although I don't know why 'end' if anything it's the bellbeginning.
Hope this helps.
Regards Europe, I think we should probably point out a few things to add some balance to the argument regarding Benitez.
Over two legs, Benitez is excellent, but this can also be symptomatic of his failings as a manager. He seems to work better when he knows what he has to do, which suggests it's the only time he's less cautious. Look at the league. When chasing the pack after Xmas (which is usually the case) we're excellent, we know what we have to do and we go for it. When leading we falter, caution creeps in and indecisiveness. So the two legged tie suits Rafa, if we're away in the first leg it suits him even more, because we have the crowd behind us at home in the return, and we can just go for it. Look at ties we've played at home first though, it always seems more of a struggle, like Chelsea last year and the year before for example. He struggles with how to approach the first leg.
Even group stages we've often stuttered our way through, and finals?? Have we played a 'good' final under Benitez? Argue what you like about Istanbul, but our approach was our hinderance to start with. Second half, we knew what we had to do and we went for it. His masterstroke his arguably his ability to assess and exploit the opposition, when it comes to his own side he doesn't know how to set out to win consistently because he's so caught up on the opposition. The opposition threat has as much a bearing on his lineup as our own quality does, and as said, there are many games (especially domestically) where it's just not necessary and if he hasn't learned that by now, he never will.
Over two legs, Benitez is excellent, but this can also be symptomatic of his failings as a manager. He seems to work better when he knows what he has to do, which suggests it's the only time he's less cautious. Look at the league. When chasing the pack after Xmas (which is usually the case) we're excellent, we know what we have to do and we go for it. When leading we falter, caution creeps in and indecisiveness. So the two legged tie suits Rafa, if we're away in the first leg it suits him even more, because we have the crowd behind us at home in the return, and we can just go for it. Look at ties we've played at home first though, it always seems more of a struggle, like Chelsea last year and the year before for example. He struggles with how to approach the first leg.
Even group stages we've often stuttered our way through, and finals?? Have we played a 'good' final under Benitez? Argue what you like about Istanbul, but our approach was our hinderance to start with. Second half, we knew what we had to do and we went for it. His masterstroke his arguably his ability to assess and exploit the opposition, when it comes to his own side he doesn't know how to set out to win consistently because he's so caught up on the opposition. The opposition threat has as much a bearing on his lineup as our own quality does, and as said, there are many games (especially domestically) where it's just not necessary and if he hasn't learned that by now, he never will.
Liverpool under Benitez have generally been pretty good when we having nothing to lose. Conversely, we usually have nothing to win by that stage either, which is obviously not a situation that we should ever be comfortable with. I think it's much easier to play well when the goal is 4th, and much harder to do it when the goal is 1st.
When it looks like we're in with a shout, we have always displayed a fear of losing. In real terms, a fear of losing almost translates to a fear of winning. It's essentially a fear of doing what is necessary to win games. We didn't relish leading the pack last year - it was a burden to us. We became a little too comfortable being second best and making excuses, rather than taking the bull by the horns.
I think that mentality ultimately stems from the manager. For starters, you don't see the likes of Ferguson, Wenger or whoever happens to be in charge of Chelsea, making excuses before a ball has even been kicked. That's been pretty much a constant during Rafa's time here. What's more, it can hardly fill players with confidence when their natural games are consistently sacrificed in favour of nullifying the opposition. If he'd shown a little more faith in the ability of his own players rather than shackling them with defensive responsibilities, then perhaps we'd have made more of our position last year. We'd certainly have won a few more games this year.
When it looks like we're in with a shout, we have always displayed a fear of losing. In real terms, a fear of losing almost translates to a fear of winning. It's essentially a fear of doing what is necessary to win games. We didn't relish leading the pack last year - it was a burden to us. We became a little too comfortable being second best and making excuses, rather than taking the bull by the horns.
I think that mentality ultimately stems from the manager. For starters, you don't see the likes of Ferguson, Wenger or whoever happens to be in charge of Chelsea, making excuses before a ball has even been kicked. That's been pretty much a constant during Rafa's time here. What's more, it can hardly fill players with confidence when their natural games are consistently sacrificed in favour of nullifying the opposition. If he'd shown a little more faith in the ability of his own players rather than shackling them with defensive responsibilities, then perhaps we'd have made more of our position last year. We'd certainly have won a few more games this year.
Thankyou gerry ... Its all very grudging isn't it. I suppose it's the end and not the beginning Oncy as it grows away from the body eh ...
IMO Benitez has been a cracking mánager for us in Europe and i would have no qualms sticking by my assertion that we have indeed at times been the best team in Europe during his tenure regardless of luck or of league position. Not only have we lifted the trophy ( the only genuine important indicator) but we have at times IMO been a genuinely fucking dangerous proposition for any opponent. We were lucky in 2005 ? OK ... But we won the fucker didnt we. Last season for a sadly all to brief a period we were definitely the best team in England yet we never won the title so ...What about the second final against Milan? Or should we just forget that one... How do you actually judge if it isn't based on who picks up the trophy at the end of it all? If you can ignore the honour of a victory what actually is there to win? surely it must be down to who has the trophy and who has their name written down next to the word champion. Otherwise it is purely a question of opinion. Either way you look at it in my own opinion we have at times during the last years been the best team in Europe if I'm a bellend to say so then fair enough ... I'm just looking forward to the game.
IMO Benitez has been a cracking mánager for us in Europe and i would have no qualms sticking by my assertion that we have indeed at times been the best team in Europe during his tenure regardless of luck or of league position. Not only have we lifted the trophy ( the only genuine important indicator) but we have at times IMO been a genuinely fucking dangerous proposition for any opponent. We were lucky in 2005 ? OK ... But we won the fucker didnt we. Last season for a sadly all to brief a period we were definitely the best team in England yet we never won the title so ...What about the second final against Milan? Or should we just forget that one... How do you actually judge if it isn't based on who picks up the trophy at the end of it all? If you can ignore the honour of a victory what actually is there to win? surely it must be down to who has the trophy and who has their name written down next to the word champion. Otherwise it is purely a question of opinion. Either way you look at it in my own opinion we have at times during the last years been the best team in Europe if I'm a bellend to say so then fair enough ... I'm just looking forward to the game.
Before this season, most continental teams and managers would deem us as the worst possible opponent to draw. We had many things going for us in the Champions League, and not least of all was Rafa Benitez.
Somehow this season we have turned into some sort of a joke, in the league and in the cups. Where the buck stops for that is open to interpretation. But it is very very hard to look past Rafa.
Somehow this season we have turned into some sort of a joke, in the league and in the cups. Where the buck stops for that is open to interpretation. But it is very very hard to look past Rafa.
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