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Beating the Bus

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localny

localny

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So it seems our achilles heel du jour is the issue of no incision against teams that set up tight lines at the back, packing their defense. I thought we had solved this. Is the issue that our attacking players are out of form, making this a tougher nut to crack than before.

How do most teams break down the Big buses? Just dogged persistence? Battering ram? Please no body suggest Benteke or Carroll. Never worked for us 🙂

What should Klopp do to fix? I'm seeing gegenpress, flying wing backs and fast rapid movement, but maybe it doesn;t work in January when players are dogged tired?
 
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There is no one universal prescription against the "bus." But if you have all or most of the things from the list below, you will break through most teams who defend in numbers:

1. Two fast wingers or wing-backs who are good dribblers and are told to stay as wide as possible to always be an outlet and a threat. This is where Klopp can learn from Guardiola who always emphasized such players in Barca, Bayern and now City (Sane and Sterling).
2. Good set piece takers and good headers on the ball in the box. We've improved in this area somewhat with Klopp, but only when Matip and Coutinho are available. When both were injured, our set-pieces were dire again.
3. An in-form goalscorer – that always helps.
4. A quick and decisive DM to snuff out counter-attacks – Hendo has been good at this, but we struggled when he wasn't available.
5. Finally, a couple players who are willing to put their head down and run at defenders through the middle. That can be a midfielder or a striker, doesn't matter. If they don't score, they at least create confusion and earn free-kicks and penalties.
 
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Overall, urgency and quick sharp passing. We had that earlier in the season but errors start creeping in.

We also have the habit of passing few yards to someone when it doesn't serve any purpose. Attract the defender to you then pass it off. The players are afraid of the defenders coming too close that they just dispose the ball sideways or backwards without even thinking. Most of the time we pass around and their defenders doesn't even move out of their position. We also switch flanks too slowly.

Clyne and Milner are not good enough in attack unfortunately. Milner cuts in too much, Clyne gets behind slightly better but has little end product. Rose and Walker are the kind of players we should be looking to get.
 
rurikbird said:
There is no one universal prescription against the "bus." But if you have all or most of the things from the list above, you will break through most teams who defend in numbers:

1. Two fast wingers or wing-backs who are good dribblers and are told to stay as wide as possible to always be an outlet and a threat. This is where Klopp can learn from Guardiola who always emphasized such players in Barca, Bayern and now City (Sane and Sterling).
2. Good set piece takers and good headers on the ball in the box. We've improved in this area somewhat with Klopp, but only when Matip and Coutinho are available. When both were injured, our set-pieces were dire again.
3. An in-form goalscorer – that always helps.
4. A quick and decisive DM to snuff out counter-attacks – Hendo has been good at this, but we struggled when he wasn't available.
5. Finally, a couple players who are willing to put their head down and run at defenders from a central position. That can be a midfielder or a striker, doesn't matter. If they don't score, they at least create confusion and earn free-kicks and penalties.
Click to expand...

Don't forget a player who can unlock he tightest defences by himself, from nowhere, without any assistance from his teammates.

[emoji6]
 
StevieM said:
Don't forget a player who can unlock he tightest defences by himself, from nowhere, without any assistance from his teammates.

[emoji6]
Click to expand...

photo.jpg
 
You get to the by-line and you cross the fucking ball into the box. This also works better when said box has attacking players in it. It's pretty simple actually.
 
You can actually play without wingers and still be very good at breaking teams down. It isn't necessarily about width, although width does help a lot (just look at Ferguson's United down the years).

The two essential elements are 1. Fluidity and 2. Quick players and quick movement of the ball
 
its all about the tempo and being literally forward thinking with the ball .

it's been evident how we've lacked runners outside the first xi too, origi goes out wide all the fucking time, Sturridge literally goes to the half way line to get some time on the ball , there is nobody to give the centre backs a sweat

too often in recent losses, when sides sat back we slowed our game right down and did our beat England performance , passing the ball from side to side in slow motion with the first touch always being to shield the ball or drop deeper.

the likes of coutinho and mane naturally want to beat their man so buck this trend , I don't imagine we will see sides be able to park the bus when mane,Lallana ,coutinho and firmino are all on the pitch simultaneously.
 
I did a thread sumilar to this last season I think.

On the points that have been made thus far i dont understand why everyone keeps talking about Milner cutting in when nearly every game he is wide and is the only who realizes it seems that getting around is the only way. It is just that he crosses to a load of weak frontmen who are nearly never in the right place.

I agree with all of the points made by the first response and cannot better them. To be honest there are a few examples of all of this in our games:

1) origi goal against Sunderland.
2) Mane first goal against Watford or Hull - cannot remember.

With the players we have i think the following would help:-

A) just pass the thing more quickly and not to the guy with too many defenders around him but keep the ball moving forward all the time.

B) Fucking Clyne and Can and Firminiho - too much time on ball with Clyne 99.99 % of the time always backwards or cutting in. You watch him he never takes on defenders it is always the safest and most backward option.
 
JohnnyRocket said:
You can actually play without wingers and still be very good at breaking teams down. It isn't necessarily about width, although width does help a lot (just look at Ferguson's United down the years).

The two essential elements are 1. Fluidity and 2. Quick players and quick movement of the ball
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What the fuck ? Giggs and Becks ? The later being one of the best if not the best crosser of the ball ever.

Fergie got the formula right regarding the points you made but he also had c.ronaldo in his time. But i would like to add that the busses they faced were nothing like the frequency at which we have beem seeing this and last season or so tightly packed. It is as if nearly every team comes to park the bus - worse still if they realize how poor we actually are when teams press us they would i think come out of their defence a bit more.
 
Every time I've seen us play well in attack, I've seen lots and lots of runs in behind from midfield, I completely agree on the plethora of comments about needing better width in these games, and Mane provides that better than Coutinho, Firmino or Origi can in his absence, but we also need Wijni, Emre and Adam bursting into the box whenever they can, it unsettles and stretches static defenders, and makes space for everyone. As soon as these runs started happening against Chelsea we started looking dangerous, and it seems when I don't see the midfield doing this, we look stale. Maybe the abscence of these runs is a symptom of the greater attacking problem, or maybe it's a cause, I don't know, but it's certainly a pattern I've noticed with our poorer and better performances.
 
I'd say 2 things for me - players that can beat a people with skill and dribbling ala suarez, and fast accurate passing. Those are 2 things I think we're missing. When we get into the final 3rd, we're doing things so slow and predictable, that they probably don't even need to banks of 4 to defend against us at the moment.
 
You've got to hold and give

But do it at the right time

You can be slow or fast

But you must get to the line

They'll always hit you and hurt you

Defend and attack

There's only one way to beat them

Get round the back
 
StevieM said:
Don't forget a player who can unlock he tightest defences by himself, from nowhere, without any assistance from his teammates.

[emoji6]
Click to expand...

It would be interesting to see whether the theory that 'tricky' players are what is required to unlock two banks of four defending deep.

In our title run under Rodgers we came a cropper at Chelsea and for the remainder of the season teams played us similarly - Suarez scored 0 in 8 games down that stretch.

Anyway, for Klopps tactics to work I think its obvious we need to score first to force the other team to chase the game a bit. It would help if we had a decent defence.

I think you need a variety of things to open up a packed defence, and even if you get them all there's no guarantee it'll work.

I think the a combination of the following are needed:
Width
Pace
The ability to beat a man
Good long distance shooters
Good one touch passing
 
Our defence is at rock bottom, there's literally nothing to lose by picking Moreno who can at least run, move Milner into midfield alongside Henderson and Lallana, and make sure we don't pick anyone shit there again for the rest of the season. Especially Lucas.
 
dantes said:
Our defence is at rock bottom, there's literally nothing to lose by picking Moreno who can at least run, move Milner into midfield alongside Henderson and Lallana, and make sure we don't pick anyone shit there again for the rest of the season. Especially Lucas.
Click to expand...

Why drop Wyjnaldum?
 
Rosco said:
It would be interesting to see whether the theory that 'tricky' players are what is required to unlock two banks of four defending deep.

In our title run under Rodgers we came a cropper at Chelsea and for the remainder of the season teams played us similarly - Suarez scored 0 in 8 games down that stretch.

Anyway, for Klopps tactics to work I think its obvious we need to score first to force the other team to chase the game a bit. It would help if we had a decent defence.

I think you need a variety of things to open up a packed defence, and even if you get them all there's no guarantee it'll work.

I think the a combination of the following are needed:
Width
Pace
The ability to beat a man
Good long distance shooters
Good one touch passing
Click to expand...

As I suggested elsewhere - opening up defences isn't our problem - we've done it all season.

While I agree, to a large extent, about scoring first, I'd say it's equally important not to concede first.

Remember - we're solid at home - with good results, despite a tendency for opposition teams to pack their defence.

It's away, WE need to be tighter at the back that we're losing out.
 
StevieM said:
Why drop Wyjnaldum?
Click to expand...

Doesn't work hard enough when we get countered. Milner on the other hand will bail Moreno out the majority of times that he decides to be a useless twat. Lallana will do the same for Clyne.
 
StevieM said:
As I suggested elsewhere - opening up defences isn't our problem - we've done it all season.

While I agree, to a large extent, about scoring first, I'd say it's equally important not to concede first.

Remember - we're solid at home - with good results, despite a tendency for opposition teams to pack their defence.

It's away, WE need to be tighter at the back that we're losing out.
Click to expand...

So we agree
 
darkstarexodus said:
Lovren volley from outside the box. It's going to work one of these times and it will be a precedent setter.
Click to expand...

The Serbia version of KHL will then pronounce him the best "ball playing centre back" ever to have graced a pitch and constantly remind us of this goal even though he will never, ever do it again.

[emoji12]
 
rurikbird said:
There is no one universal prescription against the "bus." But if you have all or most of the things from the list below, you will break through most teams who defend in numbers:

1. Two fast wingers or wing-backs who are good dribblers and are told to stay as wide as possible to always be an outlet and a threat. This is where Klopp can learn from Guardiola who always emphasized such players in Barca, Bayern and now City (Sane and Sterling).
Click to expand...

I don't think it is something only Guardiola recognizes. I think pretty much any manager would love those players. They tend to be really expensive. Guardiola's two quick dribbly wingers cost 100 million. Not many managers including Klopp have access to that sort of money. So I think the statement "Klopp can learn from Guardiola" is a bit unfair.
 
peekay said:
I don't think it is something only Guardiola recognizes. I think pretty much any manager would love those players. They tend to be really expensive. Guardiola's two quick dribbly wingers cost 100 million. Not many managers including Klopp have access to that sort of money. So I think the statement "Klopp can learn from Guardiola" is a bit unfair.
Click to expand...

Well, what I meant was that Guardiola, because of his emphasis on possession, is probably the outmost expert in the world on playing against the "parked bus" tactic. And a consistent feature of his style has been using 2 very quick skillful dribblers on both sides who stay as wide as possible. Not all of the players like that cost 50 million – at Barca, for instance, he used Tello and another youngster whose name escapes me. That's not too different from the option of using Ojo – but Klopp opted in favor of other players who all tended to drift centrally, which proved ineffective against the "parked-bus" formations of our opponents in January.
 
I think there are a number of ways.

1) Get an big mofo ala Carroll - and cross/play the ball into him - percentage football. I'm not really a fan of this approach. A bit hit and miss.

2) Get an uber clinical striker ala Van Nistelrooy - not many of these knocking around and I don't think with the rest of our players, having 10 players + a finisher would work under a Klopp system. The "gengen press" relies on a hard working number 9. Only Lewandoski probably fits this mould now and he's slowing down.

3) Get a very creative all round CF who works hard and can create goals/chance by himself ala Suarez. There is only one Suarez. He plays for Barca now. Maybe if he wins another CL and La Liga he'll get bored and come back? We can only dream.

4) Buy more players who can beat a man in 1v1 situations ala a Mane/Sanchez. When you have a Mane/Sanchez, you can unbalance an organised defence as they get pulled out of position trying to double up. As if you need to double up on a Mane, then there's a spare man elsewhere. If you have 2 or 3 Manes', across the course of a 90minute game, that extra work you need to put in to cover a threat wears on you and you're susceptible to conceding late goals.

Currently in our first team 16 we have:

Mane and a confident Coutinho (when on form) who teams might double up on. We need a couple more players in this mould. When we almost won the title we had Coutinho, Suarez, Sterling, Sturridge (when he had legs), even GlenJo could drop a shoulder and dribble.

Chelsea currently have Moses, Hazard, Costa, Pedro, Willian.
Arsenal have Sanchez, Walcott, Wellbeck, Bellerin, Chamberlain, and to a lesser extent Ramsey.
City have Sterling, Sane, KDB, Aguero, now Jesus, Silva and back when he had legs Yaya was a beast.

I think this an area we are severely lacking genuine quality. Clyne isn't technical enough. Wynaldum seems to have an ability to drive but not the confidence. Lallana is tricky has great feet to create half a yard to get an opponent off balance but doesn't go past players in a way a David Silva glides past them (a player of comparable speed). Firmino is another with great skill but not the burst of pace to get away from anyone nor the close dribbling action to beat a player consistently.

I think looking at the balance of our team, there's a lot of room for improvement in this area at LB, LW and CF. The LB needs to be either be a kick and run speed merchant like Bellerin. Or a tricky quick failed winger type like a Van Aanholt. Preferably strong defensively and in the air too. Moreno tries to be the former but isn't as quick nor has any brains for defending whatsoever.

The LW needs to offer an alternative to Coutinho (who will be played at AM) in such games. A close of Mane on the left. This needs to be the summer marquee signing. Reus any good still?

The CF needs to offer 1v1 abilty as well as clinical finishing. Any chance on Aubameyang?
 
I see the inherent danger in this - but what about conceding more possession? Easing the gegenpress for portions of the game to throw their gameplan?
For me, the 80/20 possession split in itself allows opposing teams to follow their own blueprint of how to play us. If we were to relinquish that possession to lure them out into a more unfamiliar, expansive game, then surely this would create more space for us to run into - especially during the latter stages of the game as our fitness became a deciding factor.
 
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