Basics

[mark1975]

I was gonna do a long thread about this, but there really doesn't seem much point.

I can just never fathom why, for all the tactical know how of managers like Rafa, and their ability to conjure up something brilliantly magical tactically every now and then. Why the fuck do they manage to get the very basics wrong?

Just watching that Kenwyne Jones video from youtube, and despite how generally shite Sunderland are, I was amazed at how many goals were from good wide play, either by decent deliveries between the defence and the goal keeper, or good balls into the box. And much of the play was by utilising good counter attacking football.

Now I'm not saying that this is the bench mark, and that's the point. Why can managers who are so astute lose sight of the very basics of the game, to the point where a side of top Internationals can barely string two passes together?

We all bemoan our squad, but I'm sure half the sides were facing are far worse, cf Reading, but a bit of fight and sticking to the basics manages to be our undoing in so many ways.

 

[HC]

Re: Basic

Good film.

Good point.

 

[Red Mullet]

Re: Basic

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=38520.msg1038065#msg1038065 date=1263918360]
I was gonna do a long thread about this, but there really doesn't seem much point.

I can just never fathom why, for all the tactical know how of managers like Rafa, and their ability to conjure up something brilliantly magical tactically every now and then. Why the fuck do they manage to get the very basics wrong?

Just watching that Kenwyne Jones video from youtube, and despite how generally shite Sunderland are, I was amazed at how many goals were from good wide play, either by decent deliveries between the defence and the goal keeper, or good balls into the box. And much of the play was by utilising good counter attacking football.

Now I'm not saying that this is the bench mark, and that's the point. Why can managers who are so astute lose sight of the very basics of the game, to the point where a side of top Internationals can barely string two passes together?

We all bemoan our squad, but I'm sure half the sides were facing are far worse, cf Reading, but a bit of fight and sticking to the basics manages to be our undoing in so many ways.
[/quote]

Means he's gonna be a failure at liverpool 🙁

 

[Rosco]

Re: Basic

[quote author=Red Mullet link=topic=38520.msg1038074#msg1038074 date=1263918961]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=38520.msg1038065#msg1038065 date=1263918360]
I was gonna do a long thread about this, but there really doesn't seem much point.

I can just never fathom why, for all the tactical know how of managers like Rafa, and their ability to conjure up something brilliantly magical tactically every now and then. Why the fuck do they manage to get the very basics wrong?

Just watching that Kenwyne Jones video from youtube, and despite how generally shite Sunderland are, I was amazed at how many goals were from good wide play, either by decent deliveries between the defence and the goal keeper, or good balls into the box. And much of the play was by utilising good counter attacking football.

Now I'm not saying that this is the bench mark, and that's the point. Why can managers who are so astute lose sight of the very basics of the game, to the point where a side of top Internationals can barely string two passes together?

We all bemoan our squad, but I'm sure half the sides were facing are far worse, cf Reading, but a bit of fight and sticking to the basics manages to be our undoing in so many ways.
[/quote]

Means he's gonna be a failure at liverpool 🙁
[/quote]

Like the majority of strikers we sign.

We don't play a style of football that's conducive to average to good strikers doing well.

The answer to Mark's question is maybe they aren't as astute as they're given credit for.

 

[Richey]

Re: Basic

Good point.
Benitez has signed, what, 8 strikers? And inherited 4?

How many have actually been a success?

They can't all have been not good enough as many have managed to score a decent amount of goals elsewhere.

 

[Rosco]

Re: Basic

[quote author=Richey link=topic=38520.msg1038151#msg1038151 date=1263923904]
Good point.
Benitez has signed, what, 8 strikers? And inherited 4?

How many have actually been a success?

They can't all have been not good enough as many have managed to score a decent amount of goals elsewhere.
[/quote]

Mark Hughes' teams tend to play in a way that suits strikers, Bellamy, Santa Cruz and even Benni McCarthy all did well under him at Blackburn.

United still do play to suit their strikers, but not as much as they did in previous years. Arsenal certainly do.
Spurs are the other one that springs to mind.

The only striking successes we've had under Rafa and Houllier were three of the greatest strikers to ever play for the club.

 

[Sunny]

Re: Basic

Bastard. Me and my fellow geeks saw the word "Basic" and thought we were going to have an in-depth thread about the programming language. I'm inconsolable and FFF is postively besides himself here. I hope you're happy Mark. You could have avoided all this heartbreak with a simple "s" on the end of the title.

 

[MaBigTip]

Re: Basic

*crickets*

-and im a CS major.

 

[Farkmaster]

Re: Basic

[quote author=Sunny link=topic=38520.msg1038175#msg1038175 date=1263926230]
Bastard. Me and my fellow geeks saw the word "Basic" and thought we were going to have an in-depth thread about the programming language. I'm inconsolable and FFF is postively besides himself here. I hope you're happy Mark. You could have avoided all this heartbreak with a simple "s" on the end of the title.
[/quote]

I saw it and I thought someone had coined a clever new name for one of our players.

 

[monsieurdantes]

Re: Basic

because footballers are retarted. at sunderland they get coached the same thing week after week after week. nothing changes and eventually even their retarted squad figure out what they're supposed to do.

our squad have benitez telling them specific new things each week based on our opponents. so poor idiots like n'gog and lucas and kuyt don't have the mental capacity to keep up.

 

[refugee]

Re: Basic

[quote author=monsieurdantes link=topic=38520.msg1038276#msg1038276 date=1263937279]
idiots like lucas
[/quote]

Lucas is being paid thousands per week to do something that he is plainly incapable of doing, I wish I was that stupid.

 

[RedStar]

Re: Basic

[quote author=monsieurdantes link=topic=38520.msg1038276#msg1038276 date=1263937279]
because footballers are retarted. at sunderland they get coached the same thing week after week after week. nothing changes and eventually even their retarted squad figure out what they're supposed to do.

our squad have benitez telling them specific new things each week based on our opponents. so poor idiots like n'gog and lucas and kuyt don't have the mental capacity to keep up.
[/quote]

I dont think thats far off the mark to be honest, there is a saying that great players can play in any system and maybe thats true but average to workman like players cannot and it i these types that need a system which suits their style of play in order for them to excel, Rafa adapts his team depending on the opposition and its inherently a negative approach, its a worry about negating their strngths first system that doesnt bring the best out of our players. At times it works of course and such occasions are hailed as tactical master strokes by Rafas cheerleading squad but teams with a set style of play and a consistent formation and line up dont require tactical master strokes because they know what they are doing from the start of the game. One of the reasons that the Arsenal youth system is so prolific is that they play in exactly the same way as the first team, one touch, neat passing movement on the deck. When their young players are asked to step up they know the system the formation and the tactics because they have been playing it for years. We have established first teamers who couldnt predict what the formation tactics and style will be from one week to the next, says it all really

 

[Ryan]

Re: Basic

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=38520.msg1038133#msg1038133 date=1263922845]
[quote author=Red Mullet link=topic=38520.msg1038074#msg1038074 date=1263918961]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=38520.msg1038065#msg1038065 date=1263918360]
I was gonna do a long thread about this, but there really doesn't seem much point.

I can just never fathom why, for all the tactical know how of managers like Rafa, and their ability to conjure up something brilliantly magical tactically every now and then. Why the fuck do they manage to get the very basics wrong?

Just watching that Kenwyne Jones video from youtube, and despite how generally shite Sunderland are, I was amazed at how many goals were from good wide play, either by decent deliveries between the defence and the goal keeper, or good balls into the box. And much of the play was by utilising good counter attacking football.

Now I'm not saying that this is the bench mark, and that's the point. Why can managers who are so astute lose sight of the very basics of the game, to the point where a side of top Internationals can barely string two passes together?

We all bemoan our squad, but I'm sure half the sides were facing are far worse, cf Reading, but a bit of fight and sticking to the basics manages to be our undoing in so many ways.
[/quote]

Means he's gonna be a failure at liverpool 🙁
[/quote]

Like the majority of strikers we sign.

We don't play a style of football that's conducive to average to good strikers doing well.

[/quote]

Interesting point.

I think a lot of that comes down to the room afforded to our strikers to play in. Our whole setup - from positioning, to formation - ensures that our whole team is always within about 40 yards of each other. Arsenal are the only side in the league who play closer to each other and more compact than we do (for various reasons ranging from their intricate style of play and the preference of their players to play neat, close passing but anyway). There are plenty of sides in the league who adopt a similar compact style when defending, actually nearly every side does, but few who attack in the same way.

Look at United, they open the pitch up as much as they possibly can when going forward. In the past it was to afford space to Ronaldo to cut in or out. these days it's to afford Rooney room in the hole without midfielders and their opponents standing on top of him. Works well for them.
As it did for Hughes' teams. He let McCarthy, Santa Cruz, Bellamy, and more recently Tevez have the space they required. Usually in the hole. I suspect his prowess and nous as a centre-forward from his playing days has helped a fucking great deal in that. With a style like that getting the ball forward quickly to the strikers is imperative. United play more long balls than any of the other Top 4 teams, including us, because they've got better players to do it, and it affords Rooney, Berbatov and Valencia the space to work in. Similarly City were doing the same when Adebayor was fit - with SWP and Bellamy using their pace to get up and join him quickly. All centre forwards want the ball early and in space. Basic and fundamental, but true.

So, back to us. We don't play that way, at all. Occassionally Gerrard and Torres link quikcly and effectively, but 95% of the time we construct attacks slower, more methodically, and require more input from our midfielders than our strikers. Our strikers usually have far less space to work in, and rarely have space in front of them. People argue we shouldn't have let Bellamy go, but our game style is totally different to that of City, and didn't suit Bellamy whatsoever.

I can see what Rafa was thinking with Crouch and Morientes as their type would suit our game, but they weren't good enough. We require absolute quality that can play and link in confined spaces. An Adebayor, a Tevez, even Berbatov would be great for us. Jones (if he arrives) will offer something along those lines, but he's nowhere near the quality of Adebayor or Tevez.

So to sum up cos I'm rambling a bit. I agree with your assertion that average strikers don't suit our gameplan. They don't have enough space to work into, we don't really require pacy ones. I'm of the opinion that if we're to continue playing as we do, then it's far far more important to get better quality across the midfield.

 

[keniget]

Re: Basic

I think that to some degree, Rafa's penchant for tactical tinkering has been overstated at this stage of his tenure and is a lot more relevant to his first couple of years. These days we tend to go with the same system, when possible, and attempt to exploit the same strengths in our team (read: get Torres and Gerrard to win us the game).

That said, we don't really have an identifiable style of play - Ian St. John was bemoaning this fact in a recent article about another former player troubled by our situation - and if we do / did, it's not been consistent over a significant enough period of time.

The 05/06 season for example - and this picks up on redstars point about workman-like players - saw us playing percentage football with the players working like dogs in every game. It wasn't pretty but at the very least it was effective.

These days we still share a little too much in common with that side (in that we have one too many average players), but the arrival of Torres pretty much changed everything as he finally provided the class and quality (and most importantly the confidence to Rafa) to shift away from that. It's just that now instead of playing the percentages of the team as a whole, we play the percentages of Torres a) being fit and b) doing the business.

Generally speaking though, the Torres effect is exactly why I've been banging on about attackers with pace and dribbling ability for years and years now as opposed to "tippy tappy bellends" (that's really stuck now, hasn't it) per se... they don't necessarily rely on systems or patterns of play to excel. And in our team, particularly when the first team isn't complete and performing to the exacting standards of the manager, that's a must.

 

[Ryan]

Re: Basic

I actually don't think Rafa's preferred style of play is to rely on workmanlike players, certainly not in the way Houllier ever did, but it'd been forced upon him through the players he doesn't have. If you look at the players he's not got over the years that he clearly wanted - Alves, Tevez, Ramsey, etc - it would have afforded us to be more expansive.Now I really don't want to get into a signings debate, but when you look at when we've played our best football under Rafa we've been adventurous, he's allowed players freedom to operate, be offensively-minded and take liberties. I think under our present guise though - through form, injuries to our better attacking players, and zero confidence he's just reverted to getting the basics right. Which is probably what he should have done 2 months ago.

As our form picks up, which I think it will, then we'll begin to see a more expansive gameplan.

 

[keniget]

Re: Basic

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=38520.msg1038362#msg1038362 date=1263945079]
So to sum up cos I'm rambling a bit. I agree with your assertion that average strikers don't suit our gameplan. They don't have enough space to work into, we don't really require pacy ones. I'm of the opinion that if we're to continue playing as we do, then it's far far more important to get better quality across the midfield.
[/quote]

I don't know how you can possibly say that when you consider how much of an effect having a pacey striker like Torres up front has given us. He stretches defences, he makes space for players like Gerrard and Kuyt and really provides a real option for the early ball (as you mentioned further up) that we've never had before.

As far as requiring more quality in midfield, well that's a given, but consider the following with regards to pace and playing with a higher tempo.

Gerrard and Torres are obviously capable of playing to a higher tempo as both have pace coupled with great technical ability. Aquilani looks like he'd have a much better time with more of that around him, whilst Johnson also fits the mould of a powerful pacey player.

That leaves guys like Lucas, Riera, Aurelio and Kuyt who tend slow the play down, the players we're seemingly interested in replacing to bring in more quality.

Easy fix there.

 

[keniget]

Re: Basic

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=38520.msg1038367#msg1038367 date=1263946606]
I actually don't think Rafa's preferred style of play is to rely on workmanlike players, certainly not in the way Houllier ever did, but it'd been forced upon him through the players he doesn't have. If you look at the players he's not got over the years that he clearly wanted - Alves, Tevez, Ramsey, etc - it would have afforded us to be more expansive.Now I really don't want to get into a signings debate, but when you look at when we've played our best football under Rafa we've been adventurous, he's allowed players freedom to operate, be offensively-minded and take liberties. I think under our present guise though - through form, injuries to our better attacking players, and zero confidence he's just reverted to getting the basics right. Which is probably what he should have done 2 months ago.
[/quote]

I don't think I said it's his preferred style of play and I don't really believe it. I do believe however that he is too quick to default to it when perhaps it's not always the best way forward and he can take too long to satisfy himself that the foundations are sufficiently strong enough to become more adventurous.

His transfer strategy in his first few years certainly reflected his cautious nature and of course meant he couldn't play a more expansive game because he never afforded himself the luxury of players that were able enough. As far as missing out on players goes, well, substituting Villa for Crouch or Kuyt doesn't really encourage any sympathy.

 

[Ryan]

Re: Basic

[quote author=keniget link=topic=38520.msg1038374#msg1038374 date=1263947147]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=38520.msg1038362#msg1038362 date=1263945079]
So to sum up cos I'm rambling a bit. I agree with your assertion that average strikers don't suit our gameplan. They don't have enough space to work into, we don't really require pacy ones. I'm of the opinion that if we're to continue playing as we do, then it's far far more important to get better quality across the midfield.
[/quote]

I don't know how you can possibly say that when you consider how much of an effect having a pacey striker like Torres up front has given us.
[/quote]

I meant we don't require extra ones, as we already have Torres. Should have put that in.

 

[mark1975]

Re: Basic

I think Rafa does base alot on the physical aspect of the game. For example, alot of our play (particularly in 05/06 as Keni said) was based on pressing, allowing the opposition to play, keeping them at bay and trying to hit them with a sucker punch whilst also hoping that this tactic ensured that they tired before us.

I do agree with Ryan, by the players he's tried to sign he clearly wants us to become a footballing side, but we go through a spell of at least a month each season where our general play is not much better to look at than that of a low table side. We stand off the play, create little and score little. We lack the passing moves that we've shown we're capable of, and we lack the invention and general cutting edge.

I know every side has their blips during the season, but if you don't have the basics to fall back on then what do you have? United didn't play particularly well last night, but you see the basics of their game, stretching the play, passing the ball around, players moving into space etc was all still there. When our game goes to pot we lack cohesion, shape, movement, all those things.