Babel

[Delinquent]

[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=34555.msg901072#msg901072 date=1246871775]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=34555.msg901064#msg901064 date=1246870771]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=34555.msg901008#msg901008 date=1246862071]

'Should Babel be given a chance to prove himself?' from the usual apologists.

And yet you continually go on about Lucas, defending him again the 'usual detractors'. Both players are ironically in a similar position, it's just Lucas is in the manager's good books, while Babel isn't. One player barely plays for Brazil, one is always involved in the Dutch national team etc etc etc

Case in point ... Babel scores a winning goal against Manure, and then wins the deciding penalty in the next game against Marseilles. What happens? Dropped.
[/quote]

You could argue the merits or pitfalls of both players until the cows come home. The main difference between them is that one tries his guts out while the other looks like he can't be arsed.
[/quote]

I think that's not a fair critrea to judge a player by ... If he gives it his all but he 'doesn't look like he can't be arsed', then I don't care. If he's training poorly, no issues with dropping him. If he's really not trying, then I obviously have no issues dropping him. BUT I highly doubt he isn't arsed when he's out there ...
[/quote]

He pretends to try. I've seen it enough times to be fairly certain of that. Heck, I used to do it myself back in the under 13's when I couldn't be arsed. He has been asked to improve the defensive side of his game and he hasn't. Funnily enough, the only one who's commented on his immense effort and progress in training is him, which I think speaks volumes. He claims to have improved in certain areas, and yet his perfomances suggest he's gone backwards. If I have to watch him 'pretend' to challenge for another high ball, or run aimlessly alongside a player without any intention of challenging for the ball again this season, I'll pull my hair out.

Either he's terrified of making a mistake, terrified of getting injured, doesn't believe it's his responsibility to be taking on defensive duties, or he simply doesn't know what it means to wear the Liverpool shirt. Either way, it's not the kind of mentality we need at the club.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=34555.msg901076#msg901076 date=1246872455]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=34555.msg901072#msg901072 date=1246871775]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=34555.msg901064#msg901064 date=1246870771]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=34555.msg901008#msg901008 date=1246862071]

'Should Babel be given a chance to prove himself?' from the usual apologists.

And yet you continually go on about Lucas, defending him again the 'usual detractors'. Both players are ironically in a similar position, it's just Lucas is in the manager's good books, while Babel isn't. One player barely plays for Brazil, one is always involved in the Dutch national team etc etc etc

Case in point ... Babel scores a winning goal against Manure, and then wins the deciding penalty in the next game against Marseilles. What happens? Dropped.
[/quote]

You could argue the merits or pitfalls of both players until the cows come home. The main difference between them is that one tries his guts out while the other looks like he can't be arsed.
[/quote]

I think that's not a fair critrea to judge a player by ... If he gives it his all but he 'doesn't look like he can't be arsed', then I don't care. If he's training poorly, no issues with dropping him. If he's really not trying, then I obviously have no issues dropping him. BUT I highly doubt he isn't arsed when he's out there ...
[/quote]

He pretends to try. I've seen it enough times to be fairly certain of that. Heck, I used to do it myself back in the under 13's when I couldn't be arsed. He has been asked to improve the defensive side of his game and he hasn't. Funnily enough, the only one who's commented on his immense effort and progress in training is him, which I think speaks volumes. He claims to have improved in certain areas, and yet his perfomances suggest he's gone backwards. If I have to watch him 'pretend' to challenge for another high ball, or run aimlessly alongside a player without any intention of challenging for the ball again this season, I'll pull my hair out.

Either he's terrified of making a mistake, terrified of getting injured, doesn't believe it's his responsibility to be taking on defensive duties, or he simply doesn't know what it means to wear the Liverpool shirt. Either way, it's not the kind of mentality we need at the club.
[/quote]

I don't think he is terrified of making a mistake I think he is too eager to make something happen, it makes try things that are to adventous or snatch at chances when they are presented to him. he usually has 20 mins to make something happen, usually in a game we are chasing or against a team that has decided to shut up shop. influencing a game from the bench is a ridiculously hard thing to do. the evidence is there, since subs were introduced the highest scoring sub is fairclough with 18, well babel has 10.

 

[TheBunnyman]

[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=34555.msg901076#msg901076 date=1246872455]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=34555.msg901072#msg901072 date=1246871775]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=34555.msg901064#msg901064 date=1246870771]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=34555.msg901008#msg901008 date=1246862071]

'Should Babel be given a chance to prove himself?' from the usual apologists.

And yet you continually go on about Lucas, defending him again the 'usual detractors'. Both players are ironically in a similar position, it's just Lucas is in the manager's good books, while Babel isn't. One player barely plays for Brazil, one is always involved in the Dutch national team etc etc etc

Case in point ... Babel scores a winning goal against Manure, and then wins the deciding penalty in the next game against Marseilles. What happens? Dropped.
[/quote]

You could argue the merits or pitfalls of both players until the cows come home. The main difference between them is that one tries his guts out while the other looks like he can't be arsed.
[/quote]

I think that's not a fair critrea to judge a player by ... If he gives it his all but he 'doesn't look like he can't be arsed', then I don't care. If he's training poorly, no issues with dropping him. If he's really not trying, then I obviously have no issues dropping him. BUT I highly doubt he isn't arsed when he's out there ...
[/quote]

He pretends to try. I've seen it enough times to be fairly certain of that. Heck, I used to do it myself back in the under 13's when I couldn't be arsed. He has been asked to improve the defensive side of his game and he hasn't. Funnily enough, the only one who's commented on his immense effort and progress in training is him, which I think speaks volumes. He claims to have improved in certain areas, and yet his perfomances suggest he's gone backwards. If I have to watch him 'pretend' to challenge for another high ball, or run aimlessly alongside a player without any intention of challenging for the ball again this season, I'll pull my hair out.

Either he's terrified of making a mistake, terrified of getting injured, doesn't believe it's his responsibility to be taking on defensive duties, or he simply doesn't know what it means to wear the Liverpool shirt. Either way, it's not the kind of mentality we need at the club.
[/quote]

I think it's the third one: Babel hates defending and doesn't see why he should do it. He sees himself as a striker and wants to be free to think only of attacking. I can see all the arguments against him, and if someone offered us £8m+ for him, I'd probably sell, but I wouldn't be disappointed to finally see Babel given a chance in the position he regards as his natural one. He's fast and scores goals, after all: who else are we gonna get as a potential Torres replacement for less than £8m?

 

[Delinquent]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=34555.msg901082#msg901082 date=1246873232]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=34555.msg901076#msg901076 date=1246872455]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=34555.msg901072#msg901072 date=1246871775]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=34555.msg901064#msg901064 date=1246870771]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=34555.msg901008#msg901008 date=1246862071]

'Should Babel be given a chance to prove himself?' from the usual apologists.

And yet you continually go on about Lucas, defending him again the 'usual detractors'. Both players are ironically in a similar position, it's just Lucas is in the manager's good books, while Babel isn't. One player barely plays for Brazil, one is always involved in the Dutch national team etc etc etc

Case in point ... Babel scores a winning goal against Manure, and then wins the deciding penalty in the next game against Marseilles. What happens? Dropped.
[/quote]

You could argue the merits or pitfalls of both players until the cows come home. The main difference between them is that one tries his guts out while the other looks like he can't be arsed.
[/quote]

I think that's not a fair critrea to judge a player by ... If he gives it his all but he 'doesn't look like he can't be arsed', then I don't care. If he's training poorly, no issues with dropping him. If he's really not trying, then I obviously have no issues dropping him. BUT I highly doubt he isn't arsed when he's out there ...
[/quote]

He pretends to try. I've seen it enough times to be fairly certain of that. Heck, I used to do it myself back in the under 13's when I couldn't be arsed. He has been asked to improve the defensive side of his game and he hasn't. Funnily enough, the only one who's commented on his immense effort and progress in training is him, which I think speaks volumes. He claims to have improved in certain areas, and yet his perfomances suggest he's gone backwards. If I have to watch him 'pretend' to challenge for another high ball, or run aimlessly alongside a player without any intention of challenging for the ball again this season, I'll pull my hair out.

Either he's terrified of making a mistake, terrified of getting injured, doesn't believe it's his responsibility to be taking on defensive duties, or he simply doesn't know what it means to wear the Liverpool shirt. Either way, it's not the kind of mentality we need at the club.
[/quote]

I don't think he is terrified of making a mistake I think he is too eager to make something happen, it makes try things that are to adventous or snatch at chances when they are presented to him. he usually has 20 mins to make something happen, usually in a game we are chasing or against a team that has decided to shut up shop. influencing a game from the bench is a ridiculously hard thing to do. the evidence is there, since subs were introduced the highest scoring sub is fairclough with 18, well babel has 10.
[/quote]

His decision-making is dreadful. He has all the composure of a startled hare. And this is the guy who thinks his best position is as a striker.

This is Liverpool FC. The stakes are always high and as such, there's no time for molly-coddling. He has to make the most of whatever opportunities he gets and if he doesn't, well, that's tough luck really.

He looked promising in his first season, and he's failed to capitalize on that promise. I just don't think he has the heart or brains to play for us. I'd love him to prove me wrong, but I can't see it happening. We simply can't afford to carry him in the vain hope that he'll one day get his act together.

 

[the_khl]

This coming Season it's.... wait for it.....




[move]BABELTIME[/move]



*dumdumdumdumde-dum-de-dumdum-de-dumdumdumdumdum...can't touch this*

 

[spider-Neil]

well its certainly last chance saloon for ryan. no one will defend babel if he has a poor season, not even me.

 

[Squiggles]

I share many of Dels frustrations, but I don't see much point in selling him now because he''s worth fuck all, even in this extortionate market.

Give him a chance to back-up Fernando Torres next year and see what happens. 

 

[cochyn]

[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=34555.msg901040#msg901040 date=1246868820]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=34555.msg901038#msg901038 date=1246868493]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=34555.msg901037#msg901037 date=1246868333]
Can anyone else think of a 10+ million plus signing who within his first two years for the club was never given a run of 3 starts in a row?
[/quote]

In fairness, he did start a lot of games in his first season.
[/quote]

I'll take that as a no ...
[/quote]

11/05/2008 Premier League Tottenham H. 0-2 Liverpool 0
04/05/2008 Premier League Liverpool 1-0 Man. City 0
30/04/2008 Champions Lge Semi Chelsea 3-2 Liverpool * 1
22/04/2008 Champions Lge Semi Liverpool 1-1 Chelsea 0
13/04/2008 Premier League Liverpool 3-1 Blackburn R. 0
08/04/2008 Champions Lge Q/F, Liverpool * 4-2 Arsenal 1
02/04/2008 Champions Lge Q/F, Arsenal 1-1 Liverpool 0
30/03/2008 Premier League Liverpool 1-0 Everton 0
23/03/2008 Premier League Man. Utd. 3-0 Liverpool 0
15/03/2008 Premier League Liverpool 2-1 Reading 0
11/03/2008 Champions Lge KO R Inter Milan 0-1 Liverpool 0 Y
05/03/2008 Premier League Liverpool 4-0 West Ham Utd. 0
02/03/2008 Premier League Bolton Wdrs. 1-3 Liverpool 1
23/02/2008 Premier League Liverpool 3-2 Middlesbrough 0
19/02/2008 Champions Lge KO R Liverpool 2-0 Inter Milan 0
16/02/2008 FA Cup Fifth Round Liverpool 1-2 Barnsley 0
10/02/2008 Premier League Chelsea 0-0 Liverpool 0 Y
30/01/2008 Premier League West Ham Utd. 1-0 Liverpool * 0
26/01/2008 FA Cup Fourth Roun Liverpool 5-2 Havant & W. 0
21/01/2008 Premier League Liverpool * 2-2 Aston Villa 0
15/01/2008 FA Cup Third Round Liverpool 5-0 Luton Town 1
12/01/2008 Premier League Middlesbrough 1-1 Liverpool * 0
06/01/2008 FA Cup Third Round Luton Town 1-1 Liverpool 0
30/12/2007 Premier League Man. City 0-0 Liverpool * 0
26/12/2007 Premier League Derby County 1-2 Liverpool 0
22/12/2007 Premier League Liverpool * 4-1 Portsmouth 0
19/12/2007 Carling Cup Quarte Chelsea 2-0 Liverpool 0
16/12/2007 Premier League Liverpool * 0-1 Man. Utd. 0
11/12/2007 Champions League G Marseille 0-4 Liverpool * 1
08/12/2007 Premier League Reading 3-1 Liverpool * 0
02/12/2007 Premier League Liverpool * 4-0 Bolton Wdrs. 1
28/11/2007 Champions League G Liverpool 4-1 FC Porto 0
24/11/2007 Premier League Newcastle Utd. 0-3 Liverpool * 1
10/11/2007 Premier League Liverpool * 2-0 Fulham 0
06/11/2007 Champions League G Liverpool * 8-0 Besiktas 2
03/11/2007 Premier League Blackburn R. 0-0 Liverpool 0
31/10/2007 Carling Cup Fourth Liverpool 2-1 Cardiff City 0 Y
24/10/2007 Champions League G Besiktas 2-1 Liverpool 0
20/10/2007 Premier League Everton 1-2 Liverpool * 0
07/10/2007 Premier League Liverpool * 2-2 Tottenham H. 0
22/09/2007 Premier League Liverpool 0-0 Birmingham C. 0
18/09/2007 Champions League G FC Porto 1-1 Liverpool 0
15/09/2007 Premier League Portsmouth 0-0 Liverpool * 0
01/09/2007 Premier League Liverpool 6-0 Derby County 1
28/08/2007 Champions League C Liverpool * 4-0 Toulouse 0
25/08/2007 Premier League Sunderland 0-2 Liverpool 0
19/08/2007 Premier League Liverpool * 1-1 Chelsea 0
15/08/2007 Champions League C Toulouse 0-1 Liverpool 0
11/08/2007 Premier League Aston Villa 1-2 Liverpool * 0

Babel's First Season games LTW and he has played 3 in a row there a few times it would seem

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=cochyn link=topic=34555.msg901120#msg901120 date=1246879159]


Babel's First Season games LTW and he has played 3 in a row there a few times it would seem
[/quote]

babel has a resonable first season though, more useful to look at his starts in a row for the season just gone, the season where he was in decline.

he certainly didn't started three in a row many times last season, so you could use that as an excuse foe the decline in his second season.

 

[SaintGeorge67]

Or he didn't start 3 in a row because he played worse when he did start?

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=34555.msg901131#msg901131 date=1246881005]
Or he didn't start 3 in a row because he played worse when he did start?
[/quote]

possibly. well, like I said babel himself will know he is out of excuses if he doesn't perform this season he will be shipped out no questions asked.

 

[leftpeg]

We haven't seen the best of Babel, but we have seen enough to know he's not ever going to become the player most of us once thought he would.

 

[the_khl]

[quote author=leftpeg link=topic=34555.msg901170#msg901170 date=1246884377]
We haven't seen the best of Babel, but we have seen enough to know he's not ever going to become the player most of us once thought he would.
[/quote]
I don't exactly know why but I've still got high hopes for the lad.

 

[leftpeg]

[quote author=the_khl link=topic=34555.msg901176#msg901176 date=1246884661]
[quote author=leftpeg link=topic=34555.msg901170#msg901170 date=1246884377]
We haven't seen the best of Babel, but we have seen enough to know he's not ever going to become the player most of us once thought he would.
[/quote]
I don't exactly know why but I've still got high hopes for the lad.
[/quote]

That's what a big transfer fee and high expectations do for you. Based on what we've seen on the pitch, it would be very difficult to have high hopes for him.

 

[the_khl]

[quote author=leftpeg link=topic=34555.msg901178#msg901178 date=1246884756]
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=34555.msg901176#msg901176 date=1246884661]
[quote author=leftpeg link=topic=34555.msg901170#msg901170 date=1246884377]
We haven't seen the best of Babel, but we have seen enough to know he's not ever going to become the player most of us once thought he would.
[/quote]
I don't exactly know why but I've still got high hopes for the lad.
[/quote]

That's what a big transfer fee and high expectations do for you. Based on what we've seen on the pitch, it would be very difficult to have high hopes for him.
[/quote]

I know we've done this before but a player like Henry wasn't exaclty setting the world alight when he was at Babel's age. Some players mature sooner than others and it seems our Dutch winger has had a lot to learn with regards to the mentality of the game.

If he manages to get his mindset right and keep on working his hardest he could end up beeing a mighty fine player for us.

For me it has nothing to do with his transfer fee, it's a gut-feeling based on what I've seen and more importantly what I haven't seen so far.

 

[Delinquent]

[quote author=the_khl link=topic=34555.msg901194#msg901194 date=1246886037]
[quote author=leftpeg link=topic=34555.msg901178#msg901178 date=1246884756]
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=34555.msg901176#msg901176 date=1246884661]
[quote author=leftpeg link=topic=34555.msg901170#msg901170 date=1246884377]
We haven't seen the best of Babel, but we have seen enough to know he's not ever going to become the player most of us once thought he would.
[/quote]
I don't exactly know why but I've still got high hopes for the lad.
[/quote]

That's what a big transfer fee and high expectations do for you. Based on what we've seen on the pitch, it would be very difficult to have high hopes for him.
[/quote]

I know we've done this before but a player like Henry wasn't exaclty setting the world alight when he was at Babel's age. Some players mature sooner than others and it seems our Dutch winger has had a lot to learn with regards to the mentality of the game.

If he manages to get his mindset right and keep on start working his hardest he could end up beeing a mighty fine player for us.

For me it has nothing to do with his transfer fee, it's a gut-feeling based on what I've seen and more importantly what I haven't seen so far.
[/quote]

I made a minor adjustment for you. No need to thank me. 😉

 

[cochyn]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=34555.msg901129#msg901129 date=1246880702]
[quote author=cochyn link=topic=34555.msg901120#msg901120 date=1246879159]


Babel's First Season games LTW and he has played 3 in a row there a few times it would seem
[/quote]

babel has a resonable first season though, more useful to look at his starts in a row for the season just gone, the season where he was in decline.

he certainly didn't started three in a row many times last season, so you could use that as an excuse foe the decline in his second season.
[/quote]

I was not impressed with his first season to be honest, thought his performances lacked something, i based it then on settling in which now appears to be based more on bad attitude.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=cochyn link=topic=34555.msg901210#msg901210 date=1246888239]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=34555.msg901129#msg901129 date=1246880702]
[quote author=cochyn link=topic=34555.msg901120#msg901120 date=1246879159]


Babel's First Season games LTW and he has played 3 in a row there a few times it would seem
[/quote]

babel has a resonable first season though, more useful to look at his starts in a row for the season just gone, the season where he was in decline.

he certainly didn't started three in a row many times last season, so you could use that as an excuse foe the decline in his second season.
[/quote]

I was not impressed with his first season to be honest, thought his performances lacked something, i based it then on settling in which now appears to be based more on bad attitude.
[/quote]

wasn't impressed with his first season? tough crowd. 19/20 years old, new club, new country, new system. got double figures in goals and played a crucial role in getting to the semi final. won the liverpool young player of the year award. what were you expecting for his debut season?

 

[Spudgun]

Get rid. I'd rather give Ngog a go than Babel. He's had plenty of chances to prove himself. I remember reading we trying to flog him to Galatasaray/Frank Rijkaard.

 

[KopKing]

We have to learn to be patient with our young players. More often than not, they wont set the world alight while they mature. In Babel's case he's no longer a young player and this season is a big one for him, providing he's not sold before. His talent is without question, so he deserves another shot.

 

[mark1975]

I agree with Vlad.

The position we're in with him, in that there's little (any?) interest on the back of a poor season, we're not gonna get much for him anyway and there's still a minute smidgen of hope that he will click and realise his potential, so we may aswell keep hold of him rather than taking the gamble of losing him for buttons right now while his stock is low.

 

[Delinquent]

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=34555.msg901236#msg901236 date=1246891464]
I agree with Vlad.

The position we're in with him, in that there's little (any?) interest on the back of a poor season, we're not gonna get much for him anyway and there's still a minute smidgen of hope that he will click and realise his potential, so we may aswell keep hold of him rather than taking the gamble of losing him for buttons right now while his stock is low.
[/quote]

I'm largely in agreement, too. Selling him now would be relatively pointless. That doesn't alter my opinion that we'll end up cutting our losses on him at some stage, though. I'm hoping he can minimize our loss by showing the odd flash of brilliance in his fleeting performances this season.