Academy players
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Our U21s finished 2nd in the table and our U18s finished 6th. I'd say the quality in generally good to compete in the different age groups but we struggle to produce elite prospects that can make the step up. We dont take enough chances on young talent from South America but that should change now with the new work permit rules.
We've made some good signings in the last few years but would like to see us produce more local top talent.
We've made some good signings in the last few years but would like to see us produce more local top talent.
Trust me when I say, any player you, @King Binny or I have mentioned has been monitored and scouting report sent. I am sure its come from above that they want cheap players which you will only find in 3rd tier of English Football. Our scouts spotted Moises before Brighton but the recruitment team did not push ahead due to ownership complications which Brighton did with no issues..
We don’t even try. We’ve done a few bits from Spain with Chiri and Canos, now Baj. But otherwise who else from overseas have we even tried with? The likes of Fraudendorf and Muslialowski were never it.
I agree with you... its not our scouting that's the issue, its the recruitment team plus the finance that's my bone of contention with your thesis. The Connor Oakley is it, the young striker, has he got the minerals to move up to first team minutes?
This is essentially it, plus, I suspect, a willingness to bend the rules.
We heard rumours that some clubs were setting up shell businesses in the names of kids's parents and paying fees to them for non-existent services as a way of getting cash to the mums and dads (where it would not be permitted to make direct payments). It's possible we're not sly enough to do that. So the best kids go to the clubs who will. It's not a matter of identifying them, it's a matter of selling the club to them, and for lots of parents, money talks.
We'd probably even be willing to pay that money if there was a legitimate way of doing it.
We hacked Man City's database. We regularly tap up players, we are definitely dirty/sly but the recruitment team doesn't like the hard work and the owners don't want to splash the cash. Anyway when we get a SD hopefully we can have a property strategy of spotting talent and moving on players past their peak.
@Beamrider did you hear anything about 10-15% sale in the club? supposedly will raise between (£300-600m depending the value and whether its 10% or 15%)
We didn't "hack" their database. Some ex-City scouts that we employed logged in to a third party site using their old passwords that City hadn't changed. It's the equivalent of printing off some of the work you did for your old employer before you leave for a new job. And they almost certainly did it themselves, without the club knowing.
We paid them £1m compensation and the summer after Fallows joined we went on to sign Sakho, Aspas, Illori, Mignolet and Luis Alberto. City should have compensated us.
Tapping up is a different story - you can do a deal with the offended party to make it go away (like we did with Southampton over VVD or Tottenham over Robbie Keane). If you break the rules over kids and get found out the FA get involved, you can't pay them off and you get fines / transfer bans (happened to Chelsea who were banned for two windows). So clubs are more cautious and put layers of disguise in place.
Not heard anything about a sale. Anyone who genuinely knows what's going on knows to keep their gob shut, and I wouldn't be surprised if most of the UK-based people know next to nothing. They'll know if something is going on because they'll keep having to answer weird questions and provide information to FSG, but they won't know the full context.
Just to add a little bit of extra context here. Most of the iffy goings on in football are done by scouts / recruitment / managers, usually with one or more agents involved.
Until money needs to change hands (and they need to involve finance / admin) this sort of stuff goes unchecked. Once they need to get a contract done or funds transferred, things can often change as at that point they need to involve accountants and lawyers who know a scandal could be career-ending for them.
Until money needs to change hands (and they need to involve finance / admin) this sort of stuff goes unchecked. Once they need to get a contract done or funds transferred, things can often change as at that point they need to involve accountants and lawyers who know a scandal could be career-ending for them.
We’ve had plenty of kids from France, Germany, Spain, Holland, Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland and a couple of Eastern European countries - but we do seem to be terrible at picking up S American & African talent.
Also didn’t we get into trouble for tapping up a school kid and get a fine or ban on signing kids?
I though there were supposed to be tighter rules on signing kids from overseas as well - as in it started to look like international child smuggling with the amount of U18’s that were being snapped up by some teams.
Also didn’t we get into trouble for tapping up a school kid and get a fine or ban on signing kids?
I though there were supposed to be tighter rules on signing kids from overseas as well - as in it started to look like international child smuggling with the amount of U18’s that were being snapped up by some teams.
I think a lot of the issue with African / South American players is getting work permits. Witness Awoniyi (decent, but probably not LFC quality), Allan Rodrigues (who he?), Anderson Arroyo (???) who never kicked a ball for us. That's where we need to be a bit smarter / cuter, although God knows how that all works in the post-Brexit era.
Reality is we couldn't have signed Messi, even though it was clear he was a generational talent at a young age, because of visa rules. As I understand it, we could now do that because the latest agreement with the Home Office allows for clubs to "play a joker" on up to 4 players who wouldn't normally qualify for a visa.
The point system for overseas players is pretty easy to follow - you easily hit the threshold if that youth is from a top rated nation and has played even a handful of games in domestic or continental tournaments, let alone international or even youth international matches.
Argentina & Brazil, particularly would be easy to sign from if we had a desire to do so.
Is it really that hard to find some 14-16 year old kid that's clearly well beyond his years at youth level and build up some sort of rapport with these clubs? Use the track records for players of the last 10 years or so and see which clubs they've come from....sometimes the same club will pop up.
I.e in England it's Villa/Fulham/Soton
in Belgium it's Anderletch
in Brazil it's probably Flamengo or Corinthians
in France it's Lyon or Monaco
in Italy it's Juve or Roma
in Holland it's Feyenoord PSV or Ajax
in Portugal it's Sporting
in Croatia it's Dinamo
I.e in England it's Villa/Fulham/Soton
in Belgium it's Anderletch
in Brazil it's probably Flamengo or Corinthians
in France it's Lyon or Monaco
in Italy it's Juve or Roma
in Holland it's Feyenoord PSV or Ajax
in Portugal it's Sporting
in Croatia it's Dinamo
That's probably true now, but it wasn't true when Messi was a kid. Back then we had to rely on dodgy Italian passports and the like. There was even a scheme where players would be given money to buy a house in Malta and could then get a Maltese passport, which qualified them for EU status.
Before Carvalho and Ramsey, the "bigger money" young signings we made was back in 2019 for Elliott and van den Berg. Solanke came in 2017 and Grujic in 2016. Would be nice if we can make more of such additions (other than the much young ones like Gordon, Bajcetic and Clark).
To be honest, i overall agree with this, but i don't think this summer is the summer for long term vision. We need players for the here and now, and a bulk (if not all) our budget is going to be getting them in .
Hopefully we start to look further forward, but we're not that type of team any more, just as city aren't. Those types of signings are for the teams willing to gamble on a small shot at success. We cannot afford to run fast a loose with our money
To be fair, how many other prem clubs apart from Brighton have brought through African or South American youth? It’s still hard market to tap into and assume the youngsters themselves probably prefer latin or french clubs to join as it offers then a more familiar ground assume. Who can blame these lad at those ages to leave their familiy and see Suella’s stupid face at the borders?
Wolves signed Gomes
Forest signed Danilo
Soton signed Alcaraz
Fulham signed Muniz
City signed Perrone & Alvarez
Utd signed Pellestri and Garnacho
Chelsea signed Santos & Angelo
Arsenal signed Martinelli & Marquinhos
Yes but how many of them have been big hits? Anyway we are talking Academy players?Danilo and Alcarez are not… both over 20 when signed..,
I can think about 2 from that list whom are actual Academy, what are we saying? We just need to sign more or sign the right quality?
We had loads of SA academy players, they just weren’t first team quality.
Whether they go onto be big hitters or not is besides the point.....the point is you have scouts that are at least doing what they get paid to do.
Alcaraz just turned 20 and Danilo was 21 yes but these players still would've still been scouted.
Any player who fits the u21 criteria, who are good enough but aren't well known to European/British fans should be looked at and considered & for sure there are many applying their trade in south American leagues that could make that step now.
Don't think you can sign south American talent until they are 18 (well sure you can strike a pre-agreements).
Then sign them and loan them out for a year or just look for 18+ year olds, not asking us to find 14-15 year olds, that is a little far fetched.....but there are a lot of young players in south america/africa because clubs there feed their own through as early as possible since they don't have the money to go around spending on foreigners.
Mane
Salah
Mahrez
Yaya
Hakimi
Drogba
Etoo
Essien
Auba
Here's a task for you LFC scouts, find the next 1 that you think best resembles one of the above in Africa.....you have 4 months to do it and whichever unanimous verdict is reached...that kid will be signed 1st Jan.
This is about Academy players, those players aren’t of academy age when they signed for English clubs is my point.
Primary point still stands, how many other English club have had success with players outside of Europe? That tells me that it’s not easy for these players to settle in UK at age of 13-14 yer, signing a 21yr is completely a different thing.
So something of a challenge to all PL clubs and not just us.
There is no way that scouting is anywhere near the top of the list of problems. You don't even need scouts to know that the likes of Perrone and Alvarez are worth a punt.
There are two ways to get those types of players. 1) you are a top tier club with deep pockets, stars on the roster and a high chance of trophies or 2) you are an upper middle tier club whose operating model is offering a great development platform to young players and banking the sell on fees.
We unfortunately sit between the two. And we have miserly owners who don't appear to be massively bothered.
And besides, this thread is about the Academy, not 19-21 year olds who cost real money.
Well then you aren't gonna find any Prem clubs who've brought through at that age because there are boundaries which you cant' cross unless you wanna be hit with transfer bans like Chelsea had because of the whole Bertrand Traore exploitation.
Scouting still have a responsibility to cater within a specific age group and that includes all u21 players, globally.
Bit of a pointless debate when you want to solely focus on players it's illegal for clubs to conduct in plus I doubt any of us here know a single 13....14....15 year old player outside of Liverpool.
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